2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[GSP]

Bam doesn't move the needle much at all on offense. Tremendous defender but he quickly went from underrated to one of the most overrated players.

Him as the lead dog on Miami with Jimmy injured had them playing at a Timberwolves with KAT clip.

Can't get his own shot, inconsistent jumper, decent but overrated passer. He's one of the better passing bigs but that doesn't mean he has much of an impact on games with his passing like Jokic, Sabonis, Draymond, Marc and the like

[HeartBreakKid]

Bam doesn't move the needle much at all on offense. Tremendous defender but he quickly went from underrated to one of the most overrated players.

Him as the lead dog on Miami with Jimmy injured had them playing at a Timberwolves with KAT clip.

Can't get his own shot, inconsistent jumper, decent but overrated passer. He's one of the better passing bigs but that doesn't mean he has much of an impact on games with his passing like Jokic, Sabonis, Draymond, Marc and the like

I mean he's not supposed to be some all time great offensive player, but your logic to tear down Bam isn't convincing. Bam is a 18 point guy who can hit jumpers and pass good (who the hell has compared him to any of the passers you just listed, that is straw manning). He's a solid offensive player by any rational means...

You used some strange confirmation bias this entire season that the Heat weren't good without Jimmy Butler therefore Bam can't be that good (not logical btw). Yet some how ignored that the Heat were missing many different players and at points of the season struggled even with Jimmy there, and furthermore, the sample size of Jimmy without Bam isn't as big.

In addition to that, you're timely saying this when Jimmy Butler himself, who is a guard/forward and by nature is supposed to have more offensive impact, has had a terrible series offensively this series.


Bam's passing is just "decent" and not "that impactful" because it's clearly worse than Jokic's and Green's? Can you actually read tiers of passing? Do you even know any bigs who are good but NOT elite like Jokic, Sabonis, Green?


18/6 on great efficiency with a mid range jumper is good for a center...I swear you have torn down pretty much every big in the NBA including superstars except for Anthony Davis. Got no standards.

[falcolombardi]

Really disappointed with Clarkson winning the award, which really should be renamed to highest scoring bench player, since it doesn't seem to ever go to the most impactful player who comes off the bench.

The fact guys like igoudala, manu, ingles etc continually get shafted despite the advancements we've made in impact metrics is really sad to me.

media voters probably are not the biggest believers of analytics tbh.

[GSP]

Bam doesn't move the needle much at all on offense. Tremendous defender but he quickly went from underrated to one of the most overrated players.

Him as the lead dog on Miami with Jimmy injured had them playing at a Timberwolves with KAT clip.

Can't get his own shot, inconsistent jumper, decent but overrated passer. He's one of the better passing bigs but that doesn't mean he has much of an impact on games with his passing like Jokic, Sabonis, Draymond, Marc and the like

I mean he's not supposed to be some all time great offensive player, but your logic to tear down Bam isn't convincing. Bam is a 18 point guy who can hit jumpers and pass good (who the hell has compared him to any of the passers you just listed, that is straw manning). He's a solid offensive player.

You used some strange confirmation bias this entire season that the Heat weren't good without Jimmy Butler therefore Bam can't be that good (not logical btw). Yet some how ignored that the Heat were missing many different players and at points of the season struggled even with Jimmy there, and furthermore, the sample size of Jimmy without Bam isn't as big.

In addition to that, you're timely saying this when Jimmy Butler himself, who is a guard/forward and by nature is supposed to have more offensive impact, has had a terrible series offensively this series.

Bam being able to "pass good" doesn't mean anything. That's like staying a Pg like Brogdon can play good defense. Okay... It still doesn't have much impact. He's not an elite big passer or a strong initiatior. Being able to pass dribble hand offs to Miami shooters or make a bounce pass to a cutter isn't anything special. Many bigs can do that. Bam isn't even a better offensive player than Kelly Olynyk.

We've seen Jimmy carry many teams in the past and his record without Bam is still good or Bam off the floor. Bam is a Kat level player. Good top 30 level player.

[HeartBreakKid]

Seriously your hot takes are just memes at this point.

Within the past year you've torn down Giannis, Jokic, Embiid and Gobert all as "not that good" in some way or another. Next year you'll be telling us how Zion isn't the bees knees.

[AussieBuck]

Read on Twitter

Congrats to Jordan Clarkson but this is funny, because he wasn't the best 6th man on his own team. Has anything similar ever happened?

Camby wasn't the best defender on his team.

[Doctor MJ]

Read on Twitter

Congrats to Jordan Clarkson but this is funny, because he wasn't the best 6th man on his own team. Has anything similar ever happened?

Camby wasn't the best defender on his team.

Nene?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clyde Frazier]

Really disappointed with Clarkson winning the award, which really should be renamed to highest scoring bench player, since it doesn't seem to ever go to the most impactful player who comes off the bench.

The fact guys like igoudala, manu, ingles etc continually get shafted despite the advancements we've made in impact metrics is really sad to me.

It's weird because if you look back at the history of the award, it wasn't always that way. Definitely some winners with more varied skill sets earlier on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Sixth_Man_of_the_Year_Award

[70sFan]

Really disappointed with Clarkson winning the award, which really should be renamed to highest scoring bench player, since it doesn't seem to ever go to the most impactful player who comes off the bench.

The fact guys like igoudala, manu, ingles etc continually get shafted despite the advancements we've made in impact metrics is really sad to me.

It's weird because if you look back at the history of the award, it wasn't always that way. Definitely some winners with more varied skillets earlier on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Sixth_Man_of_the_Year_Award

Yeah, people always say how people in earlier eras didn't know much about basketball, but in most cases awards were given to more team-oriented players. It's strange, but it seems that despite huge progression in sports analysis and much higher access to games footage, it seems that casuals understood nuances of the game better back then. Old fans and sportswritters usually were higher on defense, hustle, playing within team concept ect. than most casual observers are now.

[penbeast0]

One reason might be that today you have so many highlight TV shows, highlight videos, etc. celebrating the big dunks and flashy plays whereas back in the day, you were in the arena watching the team and seeing who was busting their butts sweating and diving after loose balls.

[Dutchball97]

Maybe the analysts are a bit insecure about their value. When everyone starts basing their opinions around metrics instead of their talking points and narratives they might be out of a job.

[Texas Chuck]

Really disappointed with Clarkson winning the award, which really should be renamed to highest scoring bench player, since it doesn't seem to ever go to the most impactful player who comes off the bench.

The fact guys like igoudala, manu, ingles etc continually get shafted despite the advancements we've made in impact metrics is really sad to me.

It's weird because if you look back at the history of the award, it wasn't always that way. Definitely some winners with more varied skillets earlier on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Sixth_Man_of_the_Year_Award

Yeah, people always say how people in earlier eras didn't know much about basketball, but in most cases awards were given to more team-oriented players. It's strange, but it seems that despite huge progression in sports analysis and much higher access to games footage, it seems that casuals understood nuances of the game better back then. Old fans and sportswritters usually were higher on defense, hustle, playing within team concept ect. than most casual observers are now.

Best example of this was the entire basketball world knew in real time that Bill Russell was the best player in the world. Today there is zero chance he would ever be considered the MVP because that's an offensive award now.

[falcolombardi]

i honestly believe that it comes from the jordan effect

after decades of seeing defensive anchor centers and pass first playnakers like mikan, russel, magic, dominate

we got a score first and score a metric ton michael jordan, followed by scoring focused shaq, scoring focused kobe, and then scoring a lot lebron as faces of the league

it probably made scoring a prerequisite to greatness in people minds

[penbeast0]

Best example of this was the entire basketball world knew in real time that Bill Russell was the best player in the world. Today there is zero chance he would ever be considered the MVP because that's an offensive award now.

Best or second best (and remember a poll taken in around 1965 still had George Mikan as the GOAT with Russell and Wilt second and third). There was a great debate in his own time that continues to this day as to whether Russell was better than Chamberlain. I do think it was unquestioned that he was a superior player to Oscar Robertson or Jerry West and today there are those who rank Oscar, at least, ahead of him.

[penbeast0]

i honestly believe that it comes from the jordan effect

after decades of seeing defensive anchor centers and pass first playnakers like mikan, russel, magic, dominate

we got a score first and score a metric ton michael jordan, followed by scoring focused shaq, scoring focused kobe, and then scoring a lot lebron as faces of the league

it probably made scoring a prerequisite to greatness in people minds

Was Mikan really a pass first playmaker? He led the league in scoring from his 2nd year to 51.

[Texas Chuck]

Best example of this was the entire basketball world knew in real time that Bill Russell was the best player in the world. Today there is zero chance he would ever be considered the MVP because that's an offensive award now.

Best or second best (and remember a poll taken in around 1965 still had George Mikan as the GOAT with Russell and Wilt second and third). There was a great debate in his own time that continues to this day as to whether Russell was better than Chamberlain. I do think it was unquestioned that he was a superior player to Oscar Robertson or Jerry West and today there are those who rank Oscar, at least, ahead of him.

IDK mate. I've read a bunch of contemporary stuff and players, coaches, and media were all pretty matter of fact that Russell was the best player in the world. They seemed to not have a problem with the notion that the guy who does the most to elevate his team's chances of winning can more valuable than a guy with bigger numbers. And they didn't need any fancy analytics to realize that guy was clearly Bill Russell.

[Dr Positivity]

Best example of this was the entire basketball world knew in real time that Bill Russell was the best player in the world. Today there is zero chance he would ever be considered the MVP because that's an offensive award now.

Best or second best (and remember a poll taken in around 1965 still had George Mikan as the GOAT with Russell and Wilt second and third). There was a great debate in his own time that continues to this day as to whether Russell was better than Chamberlain. I do think it was unquestioned that he was a superior player to Oscar Robertson or Jerry West and today there are those who rank Oscar, at least, ahead of him.

IDK mate. I've read a bunch of contemporary stuff and players, coaches, and media were all pretty matter of fact that Russell was the best player in the world. They seemed to not have a problem with the notion that the guy who does the most to elevate his team's chances of winning can more valuable than a guy with bigger numbers. And they didn't need any fancy analytics to realize that guy was clearly Bill Russell.

Wilt won 3 MVPs in a row in Russell's prime so I would say it was pretty balanced. But my impression is they REALLY cared about the difference in playoff clutch performance hence by the end Russell was voted GOAT. I get a Brady vs Manning vibe.

[70sFan]

Best or second best (and remember a poll taken in around 1965 still had George Mikan as the GOAT with Russell and Wilt second and third). There was a great debate in his own time that continues to this day as to whether Russell was better than Chamberlain. I do think it was unquestioned that he was a superior player to Oscar Robertson or Jerry West and today there are those who rank Oscar, at least, ahead of him.

IDK mate. I've read a bunch of contemporary stuff and players, coaches, and media were all pretty matter of fact that Russell was the best player in the world. They seemed to not have a problem with the notion that the guy who does the most to elevate his team's chances of winning can more valuable than a guy with bigger numbers. And they didn't need any fancy analytics to realize that guy was clearly Bill Russell.

Wilt won 3 MVPs in a row in Russell's prime so I would say it was pretty balanced. But my impression is they REALLY cared about the difference in playoff clutch performance hence by the end Russell was voted GOAT. I get a Brady vs Manning vibe.

I wouldn't call 1967 and 1968 Russell's prime.

[eminence]

i honestly believe that it comes from the jordan effect

after decades of seeing defensive anchor centers and pass first playnakers like mikan, russel, magic, dominate

we got a score first and score a metric ton michael jordan, followed by scoring focused shaq, scoring focused kobe, and then scoring a lot lebron as faces of the league

it probably made scoring a prerequisite to greatness in people minds

Was Mikan really a pass first playmaker? He led the league in scoring from his 2nd year to 51.

I believe he was implying he was primarily a defensive anchor.

[falcolombardi]

Best or second best (and remember a poll taken in around 1965 still had George Mikan as the GOAT with Russell and Wilt second and third). There was a great debate in his own time that continues to this day as to whether Russell was better than Chamberlain. I do think it was unquestioned that he was a superior player to Oscar Robertson or Jerry West and today there are those who rank Oscar, at least, ahead of him.

IDK mate. I've read a bunch of contemporary stuff and players, coaches, and media were all pretty matter of fact that Russell was the best player in the world. They seemed to not have a problem with the notion that the guy who does the most to elevate his team's chances of winning can more valuable than a guy with bigger numbers. And they didn't need any fancy analytics to realize that guy was clearly Bill Russell.

Wilt won 3 MVPs in a row in Russell's prime so I would say it was pretty balanced. But my impression is they REALLY cared about the difference in playoff clutch performance hence by the end Russell was voted GOAT. I get a Brady vs Manning vibe.

this also works very well cause wilt was the most talented player with most likely the higher peak (67, even russel seemed to think so) but russel was more consistent in doing the best of his tools (and had stronger teams too to be fair) and was better at just winning non stop

peyton was more likely a better player than brady at their peaks too but brady just wins so much more