Grade the Kennard trade!

[rmfc]

Turns out this was a homerun of a deal. Always best to see how things turn out before passing judgment.

Would any team in the league say no to giving up 4 2nd round picks for Bey?

Of course not.

Check my post on page 1 of this topic.


I was always amazed to see how/why would anyone be fascinated (let alone become a raging fanatic) about what Kennard brought to the table...pre-injury and post-injury. Just wow.

[Manocad]

Detroit got suckered again by LAC. They were supposedly so concerned about Kennard's knees they needed four second round picks. Now mere weeks later they give Kennard and his knees $64M.

We got completely destroyed in absolutely every trade we did this offseason.

And this is why you shouldn't speak in absolutes, folks. Crow, serving for two, please.

[Manocad]

Turns out this was a homerun of a deal. Always best to see how things turn out before passing judgment.

Would any team in the league say no to giving up 4 2nd round picks for Bey?

Of course not.

Check my post on page 1 of this topic.


I was always amazed to see how/why would anyone be fascinated (let alone become a raging fanatic) about what Kennard brought to the table...pre-injury and post-injury. Just wow.

Well played, sir.

I very rarely toot my own horn about having better a better perspective than anyone else so I'm not a big "I told you so"-er, but since you did first...

I TOLD YOU SO. I was very vocal from Day 1 that bad knees don't ever get better--not on a 23 year old guy, and certainly not as a player gets older. Can that be worked around, i.e. a slashing power forward turns into a productive and valuable post player due to the knees not being what they were? Absolutely. There are lots of examples of exactly that happening in the NBA through the years. But a guard who already is a liability on defense? No friggin' way would I have paid to keep Kennard. I got laughed at for suggesting I'd take even a second round draft pick back for him, and perhaps rightfully so since the Pistons got back the 19th pick, minus the four 2nd rounders obviously. But when you look at the season he put up in LA (8.3 PPG/2.6 RPG/1.7 APG in 17 MPG) did he turn out to be all that much more productive/valuable than a second round pick? In any case I, and others, were sure as s**t right about not keeping--and paying--a 23 year old guard with knee issues.

[chrbal]

Luke Kennards playoff stats-











.

[whitehops]

i was definitely a fan of kennard's but understood his limitations. at the time of the trade i totally understood why they did it - it didn't make any sense for our timeline to pay role players/sixth men types.

i just didn't think he'd be anywhere this bad for the clippers though. i thought he'd at least be a floor spacer for kawhi/george if not a spark plug/facilitator off the bench. i haven't watched a minute of the clippers this year, does anyone know if it is his defense keeping him out of the rotation?

also little fun fact: the clippers' three best shooters from 3 this season (by percentage) are marcus morris, luke kennard and reggie jackson.

[zeebneeb]

i was definitely a fan of kennard's but understood his limitations. at the time of the trade i totally understood why they did it - it didn't make any sense for our timeline to pay role players/sixth men types.

i just didn't think he'd be anywhere this bad for the clippers though. i thought he'd at least be a floor spacer for kawhi/george if not a spark plug/facilitator off the bench. i haven't watched a minute of the clippers this year, does anyone know if it is his defense keeping him out of the rotation?

also little fun fact: the clippers' three best shooters from 3 this season (by percentage) are marcus morris, luke kennard and reggie jackson.

There are former Pistons playing prominent roles all throughout the playoffs. Its crazy.

[Pharaoh]

i was definitely a fan of kennard's but understood his limitations. at the time of the trade i totally understood why they did it - it didn't make any sense for our timeline to pay role players/sixth men types.

i just didn't think he'd be anywhere this bad for the clippers though. i thought he'd at least be a floor spacer for kawhi/george if not a spark plug/facilitator off the bench. i haven't watched a minute of the clippers this year, does anyone know if it is his defense keeping him out of the rotation?

also little fun fact: the clippers' three best shooters from 3 this season (by percentage) are marcus morris, luke kennard and reggie jackson.

There are former Pistons playing prominent roles all throughout the playoffs. Its crazy.

Cause now they're round pegs in round holes and not miscast!

Happy for them all to do well and hope they're happy where they are.

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM mobile app

[Uncle Mxy]

I was skeptical of how real his knee injuries were. His knee issues weren't that obvious on the court. (His D issues are another story, but he's young and seemed to be developing.) The front office was who was doing all the talking about this at the get-go, not Kennard himself. Maybe he was being held back to facilitate a tank? Maybe he was holding back to force a trade? (Look at all the hops Blake got after being traded.) That was my only reservation about trading him.

At the rate he's going, he'll have a good career in Europe or retirement once that big contract wraps up.

[vege]

Detroit got suckered again by LAC. They were supposedly so concerned about Kennard's knees they needed four second round picks. Now mere weeks later they give Kennard and his knees $64M.

We got completely destroyed in absolutely every trade we did this offseason.

And this is why you shouldn't speak in absolutes, folks. Crow, serving for two, please.

I disagree, and I confirm what I said back there. We got destroyed in every trade. Just because Kennard got paid big money won't change it. We got lucky that Bey fell in our lap, but the price we paid for the #19 pick is still absurd.

[bstein14]

I also agree that at the time, Kennard for #19 seemed like a reasonable trade, if we didn't want to pay Kennard. We get a guy on a cheap rookie deal for 4 years. Kennard and 4 2nd rounder was a bit of an overpay for sure for that spot based on what we know the average #19 pick goes for in a draft, and what the value of Kennard should have been. Obviously if LAC gave up that much money for him they thought he would have some suitors willing to pay up on the open market.

A year later, it looks like we are big winners but at the time it didn't look that way at all.

[chrbal]

Detroit got suckered again by LAC. They were supposedly so concerned about Kennard's knees they needed four second round picks. Now mere weeks later they give Kennard and his knees $64M.

We got completely destroyed in absolutely every trade we did this offseason.

And this is why you shouldn't speak in absolutes, folks. Crow, serving for two, please.

I disagree, and I confirm what I said back there. We got destroyed in every trade. Just because Kennard got paid big money won't change it. We got lucky that Bey fell in our lap, but the price we paid for the #19 pick is still absurd.

I’m not surprised by your stance. But luck is part of every single player all the time.

Like it or not, the pistons scouted Bey and deserve credit for doing so.

They only get destroyed if all 4 2nds wind up in the 31-40 range. And at least one possibly two have really good careers, Bey never improves and such.

Kennard still has major health concerns, 4 2nds still seems like one too many, Brown would have never been able to do the role with Detroit that he has with Brooklyn, and McGruder is still a placeholder. All while saddiqs rookie season wasn’t typical of a 19th overall pick.

Beyond that it was a very good trade.

[Manocad]

Detroit got suckered again by LAC. They were supposedly so concerned about Kennard's knees they needed four second round picks. Now mere weeks later they give Kennard and his knees $64M.

We got completely destroyed in absolutely every trade we did this offseason.

And this is why you shouldn't speak in absolutes, folks. Crow, serving for two, please.

I disagree, and I confirm what I said back there. We got destroyed in every trade. Just because Kennard got paid big money won't change it. We got lucky that Bey fell in our lap, but the price we paid for the #19 pick is still absurd.

Bey didn't fall in the Pistons' lap. They traded for him after he was drafted by Brooklyn meaning they traded for a specific player; they didn't get lucky. Given what 2nd rounders are typically valued at by the league compared to the value Bey appears to have, added to the fact that it's not the Pistons paying Kennard $16M/year to hobble around and score 8 points a game while giving up 12, it turned out this was an absolute grand slam of a deal for the Pistons. Which is part of how you evaluate a trade--the actual outcome. So to claim they got "destroyed" in this trade was premature, and it asserts that the Pistons would be far better off to not have Bey, still have four future second round picks, and have Kennard under contract for four more years. That is utterly ridiculous by anyone's standards but yours.

Take your medicine for once and maybe everyone won't break your balls all the time. Or just do this next time--say "I think this is a bad trade for Detroit and here's why." If you present some logical reasons that back up your speculation no one is going to give you a hard time if it turns out wrong.

[DCintheD]

I never liked Kennard because of who we passed on to draft him. That’s not fair to him because it’s not his fault, but he will always be compared to Mitchell. I’m more at peace now knowing we turned him into Bey. Loved the trade at the time and love it even more now. Clippers got suckered. Kawhi is turning into one of the worst GMs in the league.

[Snakebites]

Wait, Vege is still sticking to his guns on this?

That’s almost impressive.

Admitting you were wrong isn’t a sign of weakness, vege. The opposite actually. Every one of us has posts that have aged poorly. The key is not clinging to them like this.

[Crymson]

I believe the actual details of the draft-night trade strongly bear mentioning here. This was not a trade of Bey for Kennard. The #19 pick came to Detroit by way of a three-team deal including the Nets, Clippers, and Pistons, and was originally owned by Brooklyn. The Clippers didn't give up Bey or the chance at Bey; they traded Landry Shamet for what they reportedly perceived as a ball-handling upgrade in Kennard (plus four second-round picks). Brooklyn opted for the known quantity and immediate contribution of Shamet over the uncertainty of a draft pick. Both teams were focused upon the winning in the moment; the Pistons were looking to the future.

Beyond that, I'm unclear as to why the fact that Kennard isn't playing would figure into the notion that this was some bamboozle of a trade in any event. Kennard is a useful NBA rotation player. The reason he saw only a minor role in the regular season and has seen none thus far in the playoffs is that these Clippers---at upwards of 41% on nearly 35 attempts per game in the regular season---are one of the greatest perimeter-shooting teams in NBA history. They haven't needed his shooting, and they've got options who can play better defense; rotations shrink in the playoffs in the first place, and, thanks to the increased focus upon isolation offense, weak defenders are more of a liability, and this drops him even further in the rotation.

The Clippers have thus far lost this trade in the sense that they traded away Landry Shamet for a player whom they paid and ultimately have not needed, not in that they missed out on Bey; he was never on the table for them, and Shamet would presumably have ended that draft night still a member of the Clippers (they reportedly still liked him a lot) had the Pistons not made Kennard available.

Turns out this was a homerun of a deal. Always best to see how things turn out before passing judgment.

I feel obligated to bring up that you aggressively hailed the Griffin trade at the time it was made and have yet to revisit your stance now that the outcome is known.

[Manocad]

I believe the actual details of the draft-night trade strongly bear mentioning here. This was not a trade of Bey for Kennard. The #19 pick came to Detroit by way of a three-team deal including the Nets, Clippers, and Pistons, and was originally owned by Brooklyn. The Clippers didn't give up Bey or the chance at Bey; they traded Landry Shamet for what they reportedly perceived as a ball-handling upgrade in Kennard (plus four second-round picks). Brooklyn opted for the known quantity and immediate contribution of Shamet over the uncertainty of a draft pick. Both teams were focused upon the winning in the moment; the Pistons were looking to the future.

The fact that it was a three team trade is moot, really. Kennard was the player going out and Bey was the player coming in. Whether that was a direct two-team swap or a three-team deal doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the Pistons made a good move; only Bey and Kennard need to be considered.

[zeebneeb]

I believe the actual details of the draft-night trade strongly bear mentioning here. This was not a trade of Bey for Kennard. The #19 pick came to Detroit by way of a three-team deal including the Nets, Clippers, and Pistons, and was originally owned by Brooklyn. The Clippers didn't give up Bey or the chance at Bey; they traded Landry Shamet for what they reportedly perceived as a ball-handling upgrade in Kennard (plus four second-round picks). Brooklyn opted for the known quantity and immediate contribution of Shamet over the uncertainty of a draft pick. Both teams were focused upon the winning in the moment; the Pistons were looking to the future.

Beyond that, I'm unclear as to why the fact that Kennard isn't playing would figure into the notion that this was some bamboozle of a trade in any event. Kennard is a useful NBA rotation player. The reason he saw only a minor role in the regular season and has seen none thus far in the playoffs is that these Clippers---at upwards of 41% on nearly 35 attempts per game in the regular season---are one of the greatest perimeter-shooting teams in NBA history. They haven't needed his shooting, and they've got options who can play better defense; rotations shrink in the playoffs in the first place, and, thanks to the increased focus upon isolation offense, weak defenders are more of a liability, and this drops him even further in the rotation.

The Clippers have thus far lost this trade in the sense that they traded away Landry Shamet for a player whom they paid and ultimately have not needed, not in that they missed out on Bey; he was never on the table for them, and Shamet would presumably have ended that draft night still a member of the Clippers (they reportedly still liked him a lot) had the Pistons not made Kennard available.

Turns out this was a homerun of a deal. Always best to see how things turn out before passing judgment.

I feel obligated to bring up that you aggressively hailed the Griffin trade at the time it was made and have yet to revisit your stance now that the outcome is known.

Go find the thread, and ill get down with that. I have zero issue admitting I'm wrong. I'm used to it. At the time, it seemed like a deal trying to land a superstar(let's also not forget his first full year here was also his best year and an all-star for the first time since 14')and see if this team can not only get into the playoffs, but go far.

That was the last attempt at keeping Andre around, and seeing what he could do. It failed, and failed pretty miserably.

This on the other hand, unless the vaunted 2nd round picks all turn out to be amazing, is a great deal, as of now and arguing against that is absolutely ridiculous.

Bey would be drafted in the lottery if that draft was redone, and probably would be top 5. If that's not worth 2nd round picks and Kennard, then I'm nuts. Find me a GM who wouldn't give up second round picks, and a 2 gaurd with wobbly knees for a top 5 pick. I like Kennard and was sore when we traded him. I still think he can be a playmaking 2 gaurd, and start on some teams. With that said, Bey's rookie season was amazing, and there is no arguing it.

For some to still hold on that it was not only a bad deal, but the Pistons got "destroyed" is just ego at this point. Great deal, and has now set the Pistons up at SF for the future.

[Crymson]

The fact that it was a three team trade is moot, really. Kennard was the player going out and Bey was the player coming in. Whether that was a direct two-team swap or a three-team deal doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the Pistons made a good move; only Bey and Kennard need to be considered.

It's not moot in the terms of the existing conversation as to who won and who lost the trade, which is a misguided conversation I don't think is worth having. It wasn't so simple as Bey-for-Kennard. The Clippers didn't trade away Bey and were not going to have had Bey. Bey was never a factor for them, and they never owned the draft pick that was used to select him.

I agree that it was a good trade for the Pistons; that's not the point I'm arguing.

[hoophabit]

Detroit got suckered again by LAC. They were supposedly so concerned about Kennard's knees they needed four second round picks. Now mere weeks later they give Kennard and his knees $64M.

We got completely destroyed in absolutely every trade we did this offseason.

And this is why you shouldn't speak in absolutes, folks. Crow, serving for two, please.

I disagree, and I confirm what I said back there. We got destroyed in every trade. Just because Kennard got paid big money won't change it. We got lucky that Bey fell in our lap, but the price we paid for the #19 pick is still absurd.

When making a trade like this it must ultimately be evaluated by who remained on the board that you wanted and how they turned out. Bey for Kennard? Weaver looks like a genius.

[Invictus88]

Wait, Vege is still sticking to his guns on this?

That’s almost impressive.

Admitting you were wrong isn’t a sign of weakness, vege. The opposite actually. Every one of us has posts that have aged poorly. The key is not clinging to them like this.

I think that there's a difference between admitting that you were wrong at the time you stated something (i.e. that your reasoning at that time wasn't sound) and admitting that the results much later didn't match your expectations (for any reason really).

I questioned the trade at the time it was made because I thought if Kennard stuck with the Pistons that he would have had the opportunity as a featured scorer to shine here in Detroit and we could have gotten higher value at the trade deadline.

Grant instead ended up with that usage and did great with it. Kennard, on the other hand, has languished as an afterthought; never having his hand forced and developing into who I thought he could become. It could also be that I was wrong and he never had that in him in the first place. We won't ever know that.

I still think that my reasoning at the time was sound but it's undeniable that we have ended up equally as good if not better by netting Saddiq Bey. There wasn't data at the time (at least to me) to view that as such. But if I had a time machine I'd think very differently than I did back then.

TLDR:
- With the same info back then I'd probably make the same choice / have the same view
- With today's info it's clear that making that trade has been better for the Pistons than not making it
- I'm perfectly okay stating all of this