The Around The NBA Thread

[kodo]

There was always a strong suspicion that the Knicks weren't as good as their record early into the season because opponents were bizarrely bad at making wide open 3 point shots against them. Something about MSG? I don't know, but it was strange, and didn't seem sustainable.

Conversely, the Knicks allow the fifth highest percentage of shots from behind the three-point line (39.8) and the third highest percentage of shots at the rim (37.9) in the NBA. Despite that, opponents are still only managing a 50.1 percent Effective Field Goal Percentage, which is the second-lowest number in the NBA. Judging only by the location of their opponents’ shots (and assuming a NBA average shooting rate against them from those locations), the Knicks should be allowing a 55.2 EFG%, which would be the second worst in the NBA.

Cleaning the Glass tracks both these numbers, and you can see it in the accompanying chart that the Knicks are one of two teams in the top half of the league with such a stark difference between their actual EFG% allowed and the projected.

The true danger area for the Knicks is the three-point line, where lady luck seems to have shined on them. Through 15 games, the Knicks have had the good fortune of opponents only making 31 percent of their three-point shots, despite many of them being completely uncontested. The Knicks have allowed the third-most wide open three-point shots (20.6 shots per game with the closest defender six-plus feet away) in the league, but teams are only making 32 percent of those shots.

Knicks drop back on their defensive coverage, and should have been having resulting problems of such a defense which is allowing 3 point shots. But opponents just didn't make them, so their defense was elite since they covered the rim and opponents just whiffed their 3s. They had the league's best 3P defense at 33%, but they allowed a ton of wide open 3s. Huh?

Now that we're in the playoffs, Atlanta is shooting 38% from 3 against them. It seemed inevitable for opponent 3P% to catch up to the Knicks.

[Dresden]

As I put in a different board, Thibs is not being exposed here. What's being exposed is that having a team that features Julius Randle as its best player, isn't a very good team. I mean seriously, is Randle any different from Vucecic? That's like making the playoffs as a 4 seed behind Vuc. That's a COY quality job

I never got the Thibs being exposed in the playoffs arguments. I never thought his teams lost to anyone that was worse. They always just overachieved in the regular season. They were always built one sided. He never had the star power or two way players that better teams had.

I think what that argument revolves around is the fact that Thibs' teams typically had better reg. season records than their talent warranted, but that they were not able to play up to that level when it came time for the playoffs. I think a couple of years under Thibs the Bulls had the best record in the league, but they clearly were not the best team in the league, and their early exits in the playoffs proved that.

[CobyWhite0]

In 2011, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Heat during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2014, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Wiz during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2021, the Knicks and Hawks both won 41 games, but the Knicks beat them 3-0 in the regular season. It could wind up in another 4-1 series loss

Assuming the Hawks win this series, it will be the 3rd time in 7 playoff appearances that Thibs' teams had home-court advantage but got eliminated by a lower-seeded team. Really it's 4 out of 7, but I think you have to give him a pass for losing to Philly in 2012 after Rose got hurt. Of course, one could also easily argue that Rose should have been taken out of the game when PHI called a timeout with 2:52 left in the game and the Bulls up by 16, but that's for a different conversation.

Thibs has only won a playoff series against a higher seed once - 2013 vs a Nets team that won 4 more regular season games.

Folks can argue that Thibs always lost in the playoffs to teams with more talent, but that just helps to prove the point that Thibs is outstanding at getting his players to overachieve in the regular season, but they can't do it in the playoffs.

Compare that to our current coach, who during his 5 years in OKC never lost a playoff series to a team with a worse record. They beat a team with a better record once, against a Spurs team that won 12 more games in the regular season.

I don't think that Thibs is being exposed this season, I think it was already a well-known fact that Thibs' teams overachieve in the regular season, only to disappoint in the playoffs based on that regular season.

[CobyWhite0]

As I put in a different board, Thibs is not being exposed here. What's being exposed is that having a team that features Julius Randle as its best player, isn't a very good team. I mean seriously, is Randle any different from Vucecic? That's like making the playoffs as a 4 seed behind Vuc. That's a COY quality job

I never got the Thibs being exposed in the playoffs arguments. I never thought his teams lost to anyone that was worse. They always just overachieved in the regular season. They were always built one sided. He never had the star power or two way players that better teams had.

I think what that argument revolves around is the fact that Thibs' teams typically had better reg. season records than their talent warranted, but that they were not able to play up to that level when it came time for the playoffs. I think a couple of years under Thibs the Bulls had the best record in the league, but they clearly were not the best team in the league, and their early exits in the playoffs proved that.

Excellent summary. This series is just making that point to the extreme.

The Knicks beat the Hawks all 3 games during the regular season, twice by double-digits. Now they've lost 3 of 4 to the same Hawks team, twice by double-digits. Just the same old, same old from a Thibs coached team.

[MGB8]

In 2011, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Heat during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2014, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Wiz during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2021, the Knicks and Hawks both won 41 games, but the Knicks beat them 3-0 in the regular season. It could wind up in another 4-1 series loss

Assuming the Hawks win this series, it will be the 3rd time in 7 playoff appearances that Thibs' teams had home-court advantage but got eliminated by a lower-seeded team. Really it's 4 out of 7, but I think you have to give him a pass for losing to Philly in 2012 after Rose got hurt. Of course, one could also easily argue that Rose should have been taken out of the game when PHI called a timeout with 2:52 left in the game and the Bulls up by 16, but that's for a different conversation.

Thibs has only won a playoff series against a higher seed once - 2013 vs a Nets team that won 4 more regular season games.

Folks can argue that Thibs always lost in the playoffs to teams with more talent, but that just helps to prove the point that Thibs is outstanding at getting his players to overachieve in the regular season, but they can't do it in the playoffs.

Compare that to our current coach, who during his 5 years in OKC never lost a playoff series to a team with a worse record. They beat a team with a better record once, against a Spurs team that won 12 more games in the regular season.

I don't think that Thibs is being exposed this season, I think it was already a well-known fact that Thibs' teams overachieve in the regular season, only to disappoint in the playoffs based on that regular season.

Yes and no...?

Thibs is fantastic at getting his players to give more effort, more consistently, than most other teams do. He is also fantastic at drilling in good defensive habits.

But in the playoffs, while more talented teams have an "extra step" or two that additional effort can make them reach - well, Thibs' teams have already been giving that level of effort throughout - there isn't as much untapped upside in the roster.

Meanwhile, its not like the Knicks are at 100% - Mitchell Robinson, their starting center, is out. Taj is starting in his place, but that causes some problems - the Hawks won yesterday largely based on out-rounding the Knicks. The Knicks did get their first decent offensive games of the playoffs from Randle and Barrett yesterday - supposedly their best offensive players - but their role players underachieved - although in terms of turnovers and efficiency, the two teams were pretty equal.

[MrSparkle]

In 2011, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Heat during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2014, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Wiz during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2021, the Knicks and Hawks both won 41 games, but the Knicks beat them 3-0 in the regular season. It could wind up in another 4-1 series loss

Assuming the Hawks win this series, it will be the 3rd time in 7 playoff appearances that Thibs' teams had home-court advantage but got eliminated by a lower-seeded team. Really it's 4 out of 7, but I think you have to give him a pass for losing to Philly in 2012 after Rose got hurt. Of course, one could also easily argue that Rose should have been taken out of the game when PHI called a timeout with 2:52 left in the game and the Bulls up by 16, but that's for a different conversation.

Thibs has only won a playoff series against a higher seed once - 2013 vs a Nets team that won 4 more regular season games.

Folks can argue that Thibs always lost in the playoffs to teams with more talent, but that just helps to prove the point that Thibs is outstanding at getting his players to overachieve in the regular season, but they can't do it in the playoffs.

Compare that to our current coach, who during his 5 years in OKC never lost a playoff series to a team with a worse record. They beat a team with a better record once, against a Spurs team that won 12 more games in the regular season.

I don't think that Thibs is being exposed this season, I think it was already a well-known fact that Thibs' teams overachieve in the regular season, only to disappoint in the playoffs based on that regular season.

I think you're drawing conclusions that have a broken foundation.

Better players always win playoff series, unless their team's are complete **** shows. The best player in the series is Trae Young by a mile. He has tons of complimentary players.

It's not like Thibs was losing to the Jeff Teague Hawks in his Bulls playoff showdowns. He lost to prime Lebron exactly 3 out of 5 times. When Rose went down, Philly became the team with the superior players (Iguodala/Jrue/Brand/Lou > Deng/Boozer/Noah/Rip). That Wizards teams comically out-matched the Bulls.

First round blunders happen. Cue last year's Bucks and conversely this year's Heat. Did those make Bud or Spoelstra short-burst overachievers? Carlisle's 09 Mavs got knocked out the 1st round by an aging Spurs club. Cuban paid and upgraded their depth chart a whole lot, and they won a chip the next year against the Miami super team. Lot depends on your late-spring chemistry and injuries. Gets really difficult making a post-season run if you don't have multiple bail-out scorers on the roster.

The Knicks, 12 & 14 Bulls share those same traits. I was clamoring for keeping Nate and Belinelli, because despite their inconsistencies, they could make shots. Lo and behold, they upset the Nets. Put Hinrich and DJ/distributor as your only guard options (against all-stars in Wall and emerging Beal, btw), and you can expect Boozer, Dunleavy and Noah to shoot paltry numbers with the lack of spacing and penetration.

The 18 Timberwolves lost to the Rockets, who made it to game 7 of the WCFs against arguably the most elite cheat-code team ever in the history of the NBA. KAT, Wiggins and declining Teague have had 3 years since then to show exactly how much they suck.

Again, the trend in all these teams is guys couldn't hit shots. If I'm the Knicks GM, I'd strongly pursue some iso scoring options, with or without his blessing. He needs guys who can generate their own shots without any system play (or at least lights-out from 3P). I'm not sure why Schroder and Ball are rumored in their off-season plans, cause they need shooters: Powell, Lauri, Doug, Collins, Monk, Duncan Robinson, etc.

[CobyWhite0]

In 2011, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Heat during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2014, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Wiz during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2021, the Knicks and Hawks both won 41 games, but the Knicks beat them 3-0 in the regular season. It could wind up in another 4-1 series loss

Assuming the Hawks win this series, it will be the 3rd time in 7 playoff appearances that Thibs' teams had home-court advantage but got eliminated by a lower-seeded team. Really it's 4 out of 7, but I think you have to give him a pass for losing to Philly in 2012 after Rose got hurt. Of course, one could also easily argue that Rose should have been taken out of the game when PHI called a timeout with 2:52 left in the game and the Bulls up by 16, but that's for a different conversation.

Thibs has only won a playoff series against a higher seed once - 2013 vs a Nets team that won 4 more regular season games.

Folks can argue that Thibs always lost in the playoffs to teams with more talent, but that just helps to prove the point that Thibs is outstanding at getting his players to overachieve in the regular season, but they can't do it in the playoffs.

Compare that to our current coach, who during his 5 years in OKC never lost a playoff series to a team with a worse record. They beat a team with a better record once, against a Spurs team that won 12 more games in the regular season.

I don't think that Thibs is being exposed this season, I think it was already a well-known fact that Thibs' teams overachieve in the regular season, only to disappoint in the playoffs based on that regular season.

I think you're drawing conclusions that have a broken foundation.

Better players always win playoff series, unless their team's are complete **** shows. The best player in the series is Trae Young by a mile. He has tons of complimentary players.

Agreed.

Again, my only conclusion is that Thibs gets his teams to overachieve and play hard in the regular season, but that means absolutely nothing when the playoffs come around.

In every professional sport, players and coaches are ultimately judged by their playoff performances. Thibs' regular season wins are nice, but if you're not carrying that regular-season success into the playoffs, it doesn't really mean very much.

It's not like Thibs was losing to the Jeff Teague Hawks in his Bulls playoff showdowns. He lost to prime Lebron exactly 3 out of 5 times. When Rose went down, Philly became the team with the superior players (Iguodala/Jrue/Brand/Lou > Deng/Boozer/Noah/Rip). That Wizards teams comically out-matched the Bulls.

First round blunders happen. Cue last year's Bucks and conversely this year's Heat. Did those make Bud or Spoelstra short-burst overachievers? Carlisle's 09 Mavs got knocked out the 1st round by an aging Spurs club. Cuban paid and upgraded their depth chart a whole lot, and they won a chip the next year against the Miami super team. Lot depends on your late-spring chemistry and injuries. Gets really difficult making a post-season run if you don't have multiple bail-out scorers on the roster.

The Knicks, 12 & 14 Bulls share those same traits. I was clamoring for keeping Nate and Belinelli, because despite their inconsistencies, they could make shots. Lo and behold, they upset the Nets. Put Hinrich and DJ/distributor as your only guard options (against all-stars in Wall and emerging Beal, btw), and you can expect Boozer, Dunleavy and Noah to shoot paltry numbers with the lack of spacing and penetration.

The 18 Timberwolves lost to the Rockets, who made it to game 7 of the WCFs against arguably the most elite cheat-code team ever in the history of the NBA. KAT, Wiggins and declining Teague have had 3 years since then to show exactly how much they suck.

Again, the trend in all these teams is guys couldn't hit shots. If I'm the Knicks GM, I'd strongly pursue some iso scoring options, with or without his blessing. He needs guys who can generate their own shots without any system play (or at least lights-out from 3P). I'm not sure why Schroder and Ball are rumored in their off-season plans, cause they need shooters: Powell, Lauri, Doug, Collins, Monk, Duncan Robinson, etc.

IDK, the Knicks were 3rd in the league this season in 3pt% - out of the 8 players who tallied the most total minutes on the Knicks this season, 5 of them shot over 40% from behind the arc. And Quickly shot 38.9%, so he was close. On the surface, they certainly appear to have plenty of 3pt shooting.

But they were only 27th in 3pt attempts - how much of that is based on Thibs' offensive schemes? They shot 39.2% vs 37.3% for the Hawks this season. The current difference is that the Hawks' 3pt shooting has carried over to the playoffs (38.2%), while the Knicks have gone in the toilet (32.8%)

[MrSparkle]

In 2011, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Heat during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2014, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Wiz during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2021, the Knicks and Hawks both won 41 games, but the Knicks beat them 3-0 in the regular season. It could wind up in another 4-1 series loss

Assuming the Hawks win this series, it will be the 3rd time in 7 playoff appearances that Thibs' teams had home-court advantage but got eliminated by a lower-seeded team. Really it's 4 out of 7, but I think you have to give him a pass for losing to Philly in 2012 after Rose got hurt. Of course, one could also easily argue that Rose should have been taken out of the game when PHI called a timeout with 2:52 left in the game and the Bulls up by 16, but that's for a different conversation.

Thibs has only won a playoff series against a higher seed once - 2013 vs a Nets team that won 4 more regular season games.

Folks can argue that Thibs always lost in the playoffs to teams with more talent, but that just helps to prove the point that Thibs is outstanding at getting his players to overachieve in the regular season, but they can't do it in the playoffs.

Compare that to our current coach, who during his 5 years in OKC never lost a playoff series to a team with a worse record. They beat a team with a better record once, against a Spurs team that won 12 more games in the regular season.

I don't think that Thibs is being exposed this season, I think it was already a well-known fact that Thibs' teams overachieve in the regular season, only to disappoint in the playoffs based on that regular season.

I think you're drawing conclusions that have a broken foundation.

Better players always win playoff series, unless their team's are complete **** shows. The best player in the series is Trae Young by a mile. He has tons of complimentary players.

Agreed.

Again, my only conclusion is that Thibs gets his teams to overachieve and play hard in the regular season, but that means absolutely nothing when the playoffs come around.

In every professional sport, players and coaches are ultimately judged by their playoff performances. Thibs' regular season wins are nice, but if you're not carrying that regular-season success into the playoffs, it doesn't really mean very much.

It's not like Thibs was losing to the Jeff Teague Hawks in his Bulls playoff showdowns. He lost to prime Lebron exactly 3 out of 5 times. When Rose went down, Philly became the team with the superior players (Iguodala/Jrue/Brand/Lou > Deng/Boozer/Noah/Rip). That Wizards teams comically out-matched the Bulls.

First round blunders happen. Cue last year's Bucks and conversely this year's Heat. Did those make Bud or Spoelstra short-burst overachievers? Carlisle's 09 Mavs got knocked out the 1st round by an aging Spurs club. Cuban paid and upgraded their depth chart a whole lot, and they won a chip the next year against the Miami super team. Lot depends on your late-spring chemistry and injuries. Gets really difficult making a post-season run if you don't have multiple bail-out scorers on the roster.

The Knicks, 12 & 14 Bulls share those same traits. I was clamoring for keeping Nate and Belinelli, because despite their inconsistencies, they could make shots. Lo and behold, they upset the Nets. Put Hinrich and DJ/distributor as your only guard options (against all-stars in Wall and emerging Beal, btw), and you can expect Boozer, Dunleavy and Noah to shoot paltry numbers with the lack of spacing and penetration.

The 18 Timberwolves lost to the Rockets, who made it to game 7 of the WCFs against arguably the most elite cheat-code team ever in the history of the NBA. KAT, Wiggins and declining Teague have had 3 years since then to show exactly how much they suck.

Again, the trend in all these teams is guys couldn't hit shots. If I'm the Knicks GM, I'd strongly pursue some iso scoring options, with or without his blessing. He needs guys who can generate their own shots without any system play (or at least lights-out from 3P). I'm not sure why Schroder and Ball are rumored in their off-season plans, cause they need shooters: Powell, Lauri, Doug, Collins, Monk, Duncan Robinson, etc.

IDK, the Knicks were 3rd in the league this season in 3pt% - out of the 8 players who tallied the most total minutes on the Knicks this season, 5 of them shot over 40% from behind the arc. And Quickly shot 38.9%, so he was close. On the surface, they certainly appear to have plenty of 3pt shooting.

But they were only 27th in 3pt attempts - how much of that is based on Thibs' offensive schemes? They shot 39.2% vs 37.3% for the Hawks this season.

Yeah, but I always say that 3P% and 3P-ability have a very, very poor correlation. It's a low-volume stat that is erratic. Nocioni led the NBA in 3P% at some point in his career, and at no point did I feel confident seeing him launch a jump-shot. Wendell shot a better 3P% than Coby this past season.

I don't really care what Randle, Wiggins, Lonzo, Barrett, Schroder, Embiid or any of these types of guys shoot from the arc in the regular season. I know that in the playoffs, even Curry and Lillard stop making efficient shots by the time the conference finals roll around. You need to be an absolute 3P sniper to "fall back" on it. Guys who rely on open looks and hot stretches never make their buckets against elite defenses, unless Lebron or Durant are generating their looks.

Which is OK; not everybody is Durant. But in the Knicks' case, rookie Quigley is not featured strongly in the rotation and a 33yo Rose can only do so much. I guess the one fault I always had with Thibs was being hesitant with trialing a rookie in a clear David-Goliath match-up. Like, would it have hurt to try Snell or giving Jimmy more usage against the Wizards? Or giving Jimmy some run in the ACL/Sixers series? Thibs is the captain who sinks with his ship instead of trying one last hail-mary (in comparison to a Nick Nurse). So that's been my one knock on Thibs. But I do think the easy work around is giving him a veteran Nate Robinson, or even a Will Barton or JR Smith type. He'll play vets, and he's never really had a problem with tunnel-vision iso scorers (unless they give a weak defensive effort). He has a stubborn resistance to playing young players in post-seasons. For the record, I don't think that means he's missing out on some playoff wins. It'd just be easier to stomach, as a fan (seeing your team lose with a rookie). Totally psychological I think, because as I've said - every series Thibs ever lost, he had no business winning.

[Am2626]

Thibs:
2011 Bulls 46.5 (62)
2012 Bulls 47.5 (50)
2013 Bulls 56.5 (48)
2014 Bulls 47.5 (45)
2015 Bulls 55.5 (50)
2017 Wolves 41.5 (31)
2018 Wolves 48.5 (47)
2019 Wolves 41.5 (36)**
2021 Knicks 21.5 (41)

Donovan:
2016 Thunder 57.5 (55)
2017 Thunder 45.0 (47)
2018 Thunder 53.5 (48)
2019 Thunder 48.5 (49)
2020 Thunder 32.5 (44)
2021 Bulls 29.5 (31)

**Thibs was 19-21 when he got fired, so the Wolves were 'under' while he was coaching. So you certainly can't count that one against him - but what you CAN hold against him is the fact that he gave up a future All-Star (plus another future All-Star once he gets to a team that will use him properly) for a 1-year rental of "the perfect Thibs player"... only to see that guy force his way out of town after only one season.

BD's teams exceeded their expectations in 4 of 6 seasons.
TT's teams exceeded their expectations in 3 of 8 seasons.

Their resumes are quite similar, with one glaring exception: Donovan has never been named by 1/3 of players polled (34.6%) as "the coach they'd least want to play for." I think that makes a huge difference in free agency - not because of this particular poll, but because IMO players would much rather play for a players coach who works WITH them and gets their input than a hardass who believes it's his way or the highway.

Not discrediting BD as a coach. Think he is a really good coach and the Bulls should be happy that they have him right now. Jimmy didn’t leave Minnesota because of Thibs. He left because the owner maxed out Wiggins at his expense. Jimmy also didn’t like the makeup of the team and didn’t think they could win with KAT and Wiggins. Thibs was the one guy he actually respected and liked.

[MrSparkle]

I think both guys are good coaches. Unlike Boylen, Hoiberg and VDN.

[Am2626]

As I put in a different board, Thibs is not being exposed here. What's being exposed is that having a team that features Julius Randle as its best player, isn't a very good team. I mean seriously, is Randle any different from Vucecic? That's like making the playoffs as a 4 seed behind Vuc. That's a COY quality job

I never got the Thibs being exposed in the playoffs arguments. I never thought his teams lost to anyone that was worse. They always just overachieved in the regular season. They were always built one sided. He never had the star power or two way players that better teams had.

I think what that argument revolves around is the fact that Thibs' teams typically had better reg. season records than their talent warranted, but that they were not able to play up to that level when it came time for the playoffs. I think a couple of years under Thibs the Bulls had the best record in the league, but they clearly were not the best team in the league, and their early exits in the playoffs proved that.

The two years the Bulls had the best record in the league they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and in the next year their best player blew out his knee in the first playoff game. Had Rose not gotten hurt I think that Bulls team at least gets to the Finals that year. Agreed that the Bulls never had the best talent and their regular season record was probably over inflated but their early exit in the second year was due to Rose’s injury and an Eastern Conference Finals appearance is not an early playoff exit. You replace Bogans with Rip Hamilton and I think that Bulls team beats the Heat even that year.

[CobyWhite0]

I don't really care what Randle, Wiggins, Lonzo, Barrett, Schroder, Embiid or any of these types of guys shoot from the arc in the regular season. I know that in the playoffs, even Curry and Lillard stop making efficient shots by the time the conference finals roll around. You need to be an absolute 3P sniper to "fall back" on it. Guys who rely on open looks and hot stretches never make their buckets against elite defenses, unless Lebron or Durant are generating their looks.

Which is OK; not everybody is Durant. But in the Knicks' case, rookie Quigley is not featured strongly in the rotation and a 33yo Rose can only do so much. I guess the one fault I always had with Thibs was being hesitant with trialing a rookie in a clear David-Goliath match-up. Like, would it have hurt to try Snell or giving Jimmy more usage against the Wizards? Or giving Jimmy some run in the ACL/Sixers series? Thibs is the captain who sinks with his ship instead of trying one last hail-mary (in comparison to a Nick Nurse). So that's been my one knock on Thibs. But I do think the easy work around is giving him a veteran Nate Robinson, or even a Will Barton or JR Smith type. He'll play vets, and he's never really had a problem with tunnel-vision iso scorers (unless they give a weak defensive effort). He has a stubborn resistance to playing young players in post-seasons. For the record, I don't think that means he's missing out on some playoff wins. It'd just be easier to stomach, as a fan (seeing your team lose with a rookie). Totally psychological I think, because as I've said - every series Thibs ever lost, he had no business winning.

Curry is a .401 career 3pt shooter in the playoffs, .405 in Conf Finals and Finals

Dame is a career .360 3pt shooter in the playoffs, .368 in Conf Finals

But I agree with you 100% that Thibs is too stubborn in sticking with his vets at all costs during the playoffs.

[MrSparkle]

I don't really care what Randle, Wiggins, Lonzo, Barrett, Schroder, Embiid or any of these types of guys shoot from the arc in the regular season. I know that in the playoffs, even Curry and Lillard stop making efficient shots by the time the conference finals roll around. You need to be an absolute 3P sniper to "fall back" on it. Guys who rely on open looks and hot stretches never make their buckets against elite defenses, unless Lebron or Durant are generating their looks.

Which is OK; not everybody is Durant. But in the Knicks' case, rookie Quigley is not featured strongly in the rotation and a 33yo Rose can only do so much. I guess the one fault I always had with Thibs was being hesitant with trialing a rookie in a clear David-Goliath match-up. Like, would it have hurt to try Snell or giving Jimmy more usage against the Wizards? Or giving Jimmy some run in the ACL/Sixers series? Thibs is the captain who sinks with his ship instead of trying one last hail-mary (in comparison to a Nick Nurse). So that's been my one knock on Thibs. But I do think the easy work around is giving him a veteran Nate Robinson, or even a Will Barton or JR Smith type. He'll play vets, and he's never really had a problem with tunnel-vision iso scorers (unless they give a weak defensive effort). He has a stubborn resistance to playing young players in post-seasons. For the record, I don't think that means he's missing out on some playoff wins. It'd just be easier to stomach, as a fan (seeing your team lose with a rookie). Totally psychological I think, because as I've said - every series Thibs ever lost, he had no business winning.

Curry is a .401 career 3pt shooter in the playoffs, .405 in Conf Finals and Finals

Dame is a career .360 3pt shooter in the playoffs, .368 in Conf Finals

But I agree with you 100% that Thibs is too stubborn in sticking with his vets at all costs during the playoffs.

Well that’s the thing: 36% does not imply how incredible Lillard’s 3P abilities actually are.

[TheStig]

In 2011, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Heat during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2014, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Wiz during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2021, the Knicks and Hawks both won 41 games, but the Knicks beat them 3-0 in the regular season. It could wind up in another 4-1 series loss

Assuming the Hawks win this series, it will be the 3rd time in 7 playoff appearances that Thibs' teams had home-court advantage but got eliminated by a lower-seeded team. Really it's 4 out of 7, but I think you have to give him a pass for losing to Philly in 2012 after Rose got hurt. Of course, one could also easily argue that Rose should have been taken out of the game when PHI called a timeout with 2:52 left in the game and the Bulls up by 16, but that's for a different conversation.

Thibs has only won a playoff series against a higher seed once - 2013 vs a Nets team that won 4 more regular season games.

Folks can argue that Thibs always lost in the playoffs to teams with more talent, but that just helps to prove the point that Thibs is outstanding at getting his players to overachieve in the regular season, but they can't do it in the playoffs.

Compare that to our current coach, who during his 5 years in OKC never lost a playoff series to a team with a worse record. They beat a team with a better record once, against a Spurs team that won 12 more games in the regular season.

I don't think that Thibs is being exposed this season, I think it was already a well-known fact that Thibs' teams overachieve in the regular season, only to disappoint in the playoffs based on that regular season.

Was that overachieving in the regular season or underacheiving in the playoffs? I'd say Thibs vastly overachieved in the regular season. He couldn't duplicate that overacheivement in the playoffs. I'd say he overacheived very little. Mainly the series wins vs the Nets and the competitiveness. But that Heat team was clearly much better than those Bulls. Bron and Wade were each better than Rose at the time. Bosh was better than Noah or Boozer. They had 3 of the 4 best players in the series. Similar thing in the Washington series. Wall and Beal were the best players. Jimmy had a foot injury if I remember correct. Noah got abused by Nene. And this Knicks team with a very similar core was brutal last year.

[TheStig]

I never got the Thibs being exposed in the playoffs arguments. I never thought his teams lost to anyone that was worse. They always just overachieved in the regular season. They were always built one sided. He never had the star power or two way players that better teams had.

I think what that argument revolves around is the fact that Thibs' teams typically had better reg. season records than their talent warranted, but that they were not able to play up to that level when it came time for the playoffs. I think a couple of years under Thibs the Bulls had the best record in the league, but they clearly were not the best team in the league, and their early exits in the playoffs proved that.

The two years the Bulls had the best record in the league they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and in the next year their best player blew out his knee in the first playoff game. Had Rose not gotten hurt I think that Bulls team at least gets to the Finals that year. Agreed that the Bulls never had the best talent and their regular season record was probably over inflated but their early exit in the second year was due to Rose’s injury and an Eastern Conference Finals appearance is not an early playoff exit. You replace Bogans with Rip Hamilton and I think that Bulls team beats the Heat even that year.

Were those Rose teams really that good? They had great defenses. They worked hard. But no one on the team could score well outside of Rose until Jimmy started to develop. They were extremely reliant on Rose. Who wasn't the greatest creator for others or efficient scorer. They were good teams but I don't think they ever had the makings of a great time.

[MrSparkle]

I think what that argument revolves around is the fact that Thibs' teams typically had better reg. season records than their talent warranted, but that they were not able to play up to that level when it came time for the playoffs. I think a couple of years under Thibs the Bulls had the best record in the league, but they clearly were not the best team in the league, and their early exits in the playoffs proved that.

The two years the Bulls had the best record in the league they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and in the next year their best player blew out his knee in the first playoff game. Had Rose not gotten hurt I think that Bulls team at least gets to the Finals that year. Agreed that the Bulls never had the best talent and their regular season record was probably over inflated but their early exit in the second year was due to Rose’s injury and an Eastern Conference Finals appearance is not an early playoff exit. You replace Bogans with Rip Hamilton and I think that Bulls team beats the Heat even that year.

Were those Rose teams really that good? They had great defenses. They worked hard. But no one on the team could score well outside of Rose until Jimmy started to develop. They were extremely reliant on Rose. Who wasn't the greatest creator for others or efficient scorer. They were good teams but I don't think they ever had the makings of a great time.

Agreed. Never mind a secondary creator (which was always ultra important for any contender). They didn't even have a secondary scorer. Boozer's drop-off was significant; basically become a spot-up midrange shooter. Korver was shut down effortlessly. Deng couldn't dribble past a recycling bin. Jamal Crawford, JR Smith, John Salmons, Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson would've been god-sends for that team.

[Am2626]

In 2011, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Heat during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2014, the Bulls were 4 games better than the Wiz during the regular season, but lost to them 4-1 in the playoffs
In 2021, the Knicks and Hawks both won 41 games, but the Knicks beat them 3-0 in the regular season. It could wind up in another 4-1 series loss

Assuming the Hawks win this series, it will be the 3rd time in 7 playoff appearances that Thibs' teams had home-court advantage but got eliminated by a lower-seeded team. Really it's 4 out of 7, but I think you have to give him a pass for losing to Philly in 2012 after Rose got hurt. Of course, one could also easily argue that Rose should have been taken out of the game when PHI called a timeout with 2:52 left in the game and the Bulls up by 16, but that's for a different conversation.

Thibs has only won a playoff series against a higher seed once - 2013 vs a Nets team that won 4 more regular season games.

Folks can argue that Thibs always lost in the playoffs to teams with more talent, but that just helps to prove the point that Thibs is outstanding at getting his players to overachieve in the regular season, but they can't do it in the playoffs.

Compare that to our current coach, who during his 5 years in OKC never lost a playoff series to a team with a worse record. They beat a team with a better record once, against a Spurs team that won 12 more games in the regular season.

I don't think that Thibs is being exposed this season, I think it was already a well-known fact that Thibs' teams overachieve in the regular season, only to disappoint in the playoffs based on that regular season.

That’s the whole point. The teams that a Thibs coached team lost to in the playoffs all had better rosters and talent. If Thibs were coaching the opposing teams not only would they they have better regular season records but they would advance farther in the playoffs. Thibs teams overachieve regardless. If two teams of equal talent are playing in a playoff series I will take the Thibs coached team over the other team every single time.

[jc23]

I got Thibs autograph in 2010, i placed it in my workout room and it gives me strength whenever i look at it.

[Almost Retired]

Anadolu Efes Wins 2021 Euroleague Championship, Vasilije Micic Named MVP
MAY 31, 2021 8:59 AM


Anadolu Efes Istanbul defeated Barcelona 86-81 to win the 2021 Euroleague championship.

Vasilije Micic was named MVP of the Final Four. Micic also was named MVP of the Euroleague regular season.

Micic will join the Oklahoma City Thunder next season.

REALGM STAFF REPORT

The Thunder are the team to watch over the next couple of years. A good young nucleus: SAG, Bazley, Tony Bradley, Moses Brown, Lu Dort, Ty Jerome, Theo Maledon. Now going to add the Euro player of the Year. (A guy that would help the Bulls Immensely). Then figure in 2 more First Round Picks and 3 Second Round picks in this Draft. Then 2 Firsts and a Second in 2022, Four First Rounders in 2023 along with 3 Seconds, and then3 Firsts and 3 Seconds in 2024. If they get some Lottery luck and can add Evan Mobley or Jalen Green and also a Sengun or Giddey.....wow.

[Am2626]

The two years the Bulls had the best record in the league they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and in the next year their best player blew out his knee in the first playoff game. Had Rose not gotten hurt I think that Bulls team at least gets to the Finals that year. Agreed that the Bulls never had the best talent and their regular season record was probably over inflated but their early exit in the second year was due to Rose’s injury and an Eastern Conference Finals appearance is not an early playoff exit. You replace Bogans with Rip Hamilton and I think that Bulls team beats the Heat even that year.

Were those Rose teams really that good? They had great defenses. They worked hard. But no one on the team could score well outside of Rose until Jimmy started to develop. They were extremely reliant on Rose. Who wasn't the greatest creator for others or efficient scorer. They were good teams but I don't think they ever had the makings of a great time.

Agreed. Never mind a secondary creator (which was always ultra important for any contender). They didn't even have a secondary scorer. Boozer's drop-off was significant; basically become a spot-up midrange shooter. Korver was shut down effortlessly. Deng couldn't dribble past a recycling bin. Jamal Crawford, JR Smith, John Salmons, Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson would've been god-sends for that team.

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.