The Around The NBA Thread

[TheStig]

Were those Rose teams really that good? They had great defenses. They worked hard. But no one on the team could score well outside of Rose until Jimmy started to develop. They were extremely reliant on Rose. Who wasn't the greatest creator for others or efficient scorer. They were good teams but I don't think they ever had the makings of a great time.

Agreed. Never mind a secondary creator (which was always ultra important for any contender). They didn't even have a secondary scorer. Boozer's drop-off was significant; basically become a spot-up midrange shooter. Korver was shut down effortlessly. Deng couldn't dribble past a recycling bin. Jamal Crawford, JR Smith, John Salmons, Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson would've been god-sends for that team.

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

[Am2626]

Agreed. Never mind a secondary creator (which was always ultra important for any contender). They didn't even have a secondary scorer. Boozer's drop-off was significant; basically become a spot-up midrange shooter. Korver was shut down effortlessly. Deng couldn't dribble past a recycling bin. Jamal Crawford, JR Smith, John Salmons, Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson would've been god-sends for that team.

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

Who’s JJ? So you are saying that the Bulls don’t beat the Heat if Rose doesn’t get hurt? With the experience from the year before, the upgrade between Bogans and Rip, and having home court advantage in my opinion would have been enough for the Bulls to at least make the Finals that year.

The Bulls were something like 12-2 when they had their starters all healthy and playing. That would be the following:

PG: Rose
SG: Rip Hamilton
SF: Deng
PF: Boozer
C: Noah

That team also had an excellent bench. Probably one of the deepest in the league.

[dice]

Agreed. Never mind a secondary creator (which was always ultra important for any contender). They didn't even have a secondary scorer. Boozer's drop-off was significant; basically become a spot-up midrange shooter. Korver was shut down effortlessly. Deng couldn't dribble past a recycling bin. Jamal Crawford, JR Smith, John Salmons, Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson would've been god-sends for that team.

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

they could have had kobe instead of bogans and there's no guarantee that it would have gone more than 5 games. 3 of the 4 losses were by a total of 29 points. game 5 was only a 3 point loss, but brewer played well in 26 minutes. unless kobe has a good night, the bulls lose that one in the parallel universe as well

[Am2626]

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

they could have had kobe instead of bogans and there's no guarantee that it would have gone more than 5 games. 3 of the 4 losses were by a total of 29 points. game 5 was only a 3 point loss, but brewer played well in 26 minutes. unless kobe has a good night, the bulls lose that one in the parallel universe as well

The Bulls gave away that game 5 loss. They went 5 games and probably should have gone 6 with Bogans. You are saying replacing Bogans with Kobe doesn’t make them any better???

We are talking about the same Heat team that couldn’t beat a 1 star Mavericks team in the Finals.

[dice]

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

Who’s JJ? So you are saying that the Bulls don’t beat the Heat if Rose doesn’t get hurt? With the experience from the year before, the upgrade between Bogans and Rip, and having home court advantage in my opinion would have been enough for the Bulls to at least make the Finals that year.

rip hamilton's play AND health deteriorated strongly once he hit age 30. by the season in question he was straight garbage. not even as good as bogans. bogans could at least stay healthy, hit the open 3, and play solid defense. rip could do none of those by that point

[dice]

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

they could have had kobe instead of bogans and there's no guarantee that it would have gone more than 5 games. 3 of the 4 losses were by a total of 29 points. game 5 was only a 3 point loss, but brewer played well in 26 minutes. unless kobe has a good night, the bulls lose that one in the parallel universe as well

The Bulls gave away that game 5 loss. They went 5 games and probably should have gone 6 with Bogans. You are saying replacing Bogans with Kobe doesn’t make them any better???

i said nothing resembling that. you should be ashamed of yourself

the bulls lost game 5 because both derrick and booz were horrendous. bogans/brewer actually outplayed wade, who had an ungodly 9 turnovers

We are talking about the same Heat team that couldn’t beat a 1 star Mavericks team in the Finals.

because lebron wet the bed and jason terry put on a cape. lebron didn't wet the bed against the bulls. and kobe bryant wouldn't have prevented chris bosh from obliterating carlos boozer

if there's a move the bulls should have done differently in retrospect it's signing carlos boozer to a big contract. not signing keith bogans to a min contract. and by the way, blame thibs in large part for that one. ronnie brewer was a better player and should have gotten more minutes

[dice]

As I put in a different board, Thibs is not being exposed here. What's being exposed is that having a team that features Julius Randle as its best player, isn't a very good team. I mean seriously, is Randle any different from Vucecic? That's like making the playoffs as a 4 seed behind Vuc. That's a COY quality job

I never got the Thibs being exposed in the playoffs arguments. I never thought his teams lost to anyone that was worse. They always just overachieved in the regular season. They were always built one sided. He never had the star power or two way players that better teams had.

I think what that argument revolves around is the fact that Thibs' teams typically had better reg. season records than their talent warranted, but that they were not able to play up to that level when it came time for the playoffs. I think a couple of years under Thibs the Bulls had the best record in the league, but they clearly were not the best team in the league, and their early exits in the playoffs proved that.

additionally, the bulls were terrific in the regular season in large part because of their deep bench. rotations typically get shortened in the playoffs

[TheStig]

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

Who’s JJ? So you are saying that the Bulls don’t beat the Heat if Rose doesn’t get hurt? With the experience from the year before, the upgrade between Bogans and Rip, and having home court advantage in my opinion would have been enough for the Bulls to at least make the Finals that year.

The Bulls were something like 12-2 when they had their starters all healthy and playing. That would be the following:

PG: Rose
SG: Rip Hamilton
SF: Deng
PF: Boozer
C: Noah

That team also had an excellent bench. Probably one of the deepest in the league.

Joe Johnson. The rumor was he was going to sign here till Atlanta gave him the 6 year full giant max.

They weren't beating the heat without at the minimum an allstar if not borderline superstar.

[Am2626]

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

Who’s JJ? So you are saying that the Bulls don’t beat the Heat if Rose doesn’t get hurt? With the experience from the year before, the upgrade between Bogans and Rip, and having home court advantage in my opinion would have been enough for the Bulls to at least make the Finals that year.

The Bulls were something like 12-2 when they had their starters all healthy and playing. That would be the following:

PG: Rose
SG: Rip Hamilton
SF: Deng
PF: Boozer
C: Noah

That team also had an excellent bench. Probably one of the deepest in the league.

Joe Johnson. The rumor was he was going to sign here till Atlanta gave him the 6 year full giant max.

They weren't beating the heat without at the minimum an allstar if not borderline superstar.

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

[jc23]

I have always said the Bulls didnt need lebron or wade, we just needed to swap Boozer for Bosh and i think we take them in 2011. We improve defensively while weakening their blitz scheme they ran with Bosh.

[Michael Jackson]

Who’s JJ? So you are saying that the Bulls don’t beat the Heat if Rose doesn’t get hurt? With the experience from the year before, the upgrade between Bogans and Rip, and having home court advantage in my opinion would have been enough for the Bulls to at least make the Finals that year.

The Bulls were something like 12-2 when they had their starters all healthy and playing. That would be the following:

PG: Rose
SG: Rip Hamilton
SF: Deng
PF: Boozer
C: Noah

That team also had an excellent bench. Probably one of the deepest in the league.

Joe Johnson. The rumor was he was going to sign here till Atlanta gave him the 6 year full giant max.

They weren't beating the heat without at the minimum an allstar if not borderline superstar.

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

Everyone was in the Lebron sweepstakes so JJ took the Hawks deal but had the Bulls just bowed out of it and pursued him I bet they could have gotten him... that being said the FO would have been killed if they didn’t go after the big 3 and just focused on Johnson.

[johnnyvann840]

Agreed. Never mind a secondary creator (which was always ultra important for any contender). They didn't even have a secondary scorer. Boozer's drop-off was significant; basically become a spot-up midrange shooter. Korver was shut down effortlessly. Deng couldn't dribble past a recycling bin. Jamal Crawford, JR Smith, John Salmons, Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson would've been god-sends for that team.

That’s why I said if Rip Hamilton is on the Bulls team a year earlier they are probably beating the Heat. With his experience and being a year younger that would have been enough to get the Bulls over the hump in my opinion. I actually think the Bulls get to the Finals at a minimum if Rose doesn’t get hurt the following year. Regarding JR Smith the Bulls actually had him on their roster but gave him away for nothing because Paxson thought he wasn’t a good citizen. Really could have been the missing piece for that Bulls team instead of relying on Bogans.

Doubtful. Rip had little left in the tank at that point in his career. Giving them an extra win is generous. Being the difference is not even close to reasonable.

Now had they actually signed JJ like they planned. It would have gone down to 7 and been a toss up.

People forget about that.. We actually tendered an offer sheet to JJ Redick and he signed it. It was for $20M, which at the time seemed like it was a done deal and nobody thought it would get matched... but it got matched by ORL and we wound up signing Ronnie Brewer. We had already acquired Korver and would have had a second sniper and somebody who could at least handle the ball a little. What those teams lacked more than anything was a relief valve for Derrick when he got swarmed and trapped. That team was devoid of a solid secondary ball handler that could be on the floor with Rose.

[kodo]

So Embiid is hurt too? Jamal Murray, Anthony Davis, Jaylen Brown, Embiid... NBA playoffs is just becoming a battle of whoever doesn't go down with an injury.

[Am2626]

Joe Johnson. The rumor was he was going to sign here till Atlanta gave him the 6 year full giant max.

They weren't beating the heat without at the minimum an allstar if not borderline superstar.

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

Everyone was in the Lebron sweepstakes so JJ took the Hawks deal but had the Bulls just bowed out of it and pursued him I bet they could have gotten him... that being said the FO would have been killed if they didn’t go after the big 3 and just focused on Johnson.

I wish the big 3 just signed with the Heat from the beginning. They had to drag everything out and make a spectacle of it. They gave false hope to too many teams. If LeBron wonders why people don’t like him it’s because of that. Bulls could have just focused on getting JJ and Boozer.

[TheStig]

Who’s JJ? So you are saying that the Bulls don’t beat the Heat if Rose doesn’t get hurt? With the experience from the year before, the upgrade between Bogans and Rip, and having home court advantage in my opinion would have been enough for the Bulls to at least make the Finals that year.

The Bulls were something like 12-2 when they had their starters all healthy and playing. That would be the following:

PG: Rose
SG: Rip Hamilton
SF: Deng
PF: Boozer
C: Noah

That team also had an excellent bench. Probably one of the deepest in the league.

Joe Johnson. The rumor was he was going to sign here till Atlanta gave him the 6 year full giant max.

They weren't beating the heat without at the minimum an allstar if not borderline superstar.

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

He didn't make a mistake. They gave him the biggest contract in the league at the time. It was 2 more max years with higher raises. He never saw anything close to that money after that deal expired.

Would it have been enough. Rose was dreadful in all the 4th quarters as soon as they switched Bron or Wade on him. Boozer wasn't a factor either. I think you look at the final scores and see the grind it out style and think it was a lot closer than it was. It really wasn't. We couldn't do anything down the stretch. They had all world defenders to throw at rose. I don't know that JJ could get us 3 more wins. Maybe 2 more. But those are all time greats in their primes. It's hard to beat. That's why they went to 4 straight finals.

[TheStig]

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

Everyone was in the Lebron sweepstakes so JJ took the Hawks deal but had the Bulls just bowed out of it and pursued him I bet they could have gotten him... that being said the FO would have been killed if they didn’t go after the big 3 and just focused on Johnson.

I wish the big 3 just signed with the Heat from the beginning. They had to drag everything out and make a spectacle of it. They gave false hope to too many teams. If LeBron wonders why people don’t like him it’s because of that. Bulls could have just focused on getting JJ and Boozer.

The only guy who signed right away was Amare and JJ. Everything else was being held up.

JJ wasn't passing up that giant deal. The big 3 have nothing to do with him signing with ATL. It was AtL throwing the huge bucks at him.

[Am2626]

Joe Johnson. The rumor was he was going to sign here till Atlanta gave him the 6 year full giant max.

They weren't beating the heat without at the minimum an allstar if not borderline superstar.

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

He didn't make a mistake. They gave him the biggest contract in the league at the time. It was 2 more max years with higher raises. He never saw anything close to that money after that deal expired.

Would it have been enough. Rose was dreadful in all the 4th quarters as soon as they switched Bron or Wade on him. Boozer wasn't a factor either. I think you look at the final scores and see the grind it out style and think it was a lot closer than it was. It really wasn't. We couldn't do anything down the stretch. They had all world defenders to throw at rose. I don't know that JJ could get us 3 more wins. Maybe 2 more. But those are all time greats in their primes. It's hard to beat. That's why they went to 4 straight finals.

LeBron could have stayed in Cleveland and done the same thing. He chose to go to Miami because winning a championship was more important to him. The amount of money these guys get anyways is so much does the extra money really mean that much?

The Mavericks beat the Heat with a vastly inferior team. The biggest weaknesses that Bulls team had was at SG and JJ would have solved that problem. Getting him changes everything.

[CobyWhite0]

Joe Johnson. The rumor was he was going to sign here till Atlanta gave him the 6 year full giant max.

They weren't beating the heat without at the minimum an allstar if not borderline superstar.

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

He didn't make a mistake. They gave him the biggest contract in the league at the time. It was 2 more max years with higher raises. He never saw anything close to that money after that deal expired.

Would it have been enough. Rose was dreadful in all the 4th quarters as soon as they switched Bron or Wade on him. Boozer wasn't a factor either. I think you look at the final scores and see the grind it out style and think it was a lot closer than it was. It really wasn't. We couldn't do anything down the stretch. They had all world defenders to throw at rose. I don't know that JJ could get us 3 more wins. Maybe 2 more. But those are all time greats in their primes. It's hard to beat. That's why they went to 4 straight finals.

Just FYI, it was one more max year - he could resign with the Hawks for 6 years, 5 if he changed teams. http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap05.htm#Q47

[TheStig]

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

He didn't make a mistake. They gave him the biggest contract in the league at the time. It was 2 more max years with higher raises. He never saw anything close to that money after that deal expired.

Would it have been enough. Rose was dreadful in all the 4th quarters as soon as they switched Bron or Wade on him. Boozer wasn't a factor either. I think you look at the final scores and see the grind it out style and think it was a lot closer than it was. It really wasn't. We couldn't do anything down the stretch. They had all world defenders to throw at rose. I don't know that JJ could get us 3 more wins. Maybe 2 more. But those are all time greats in their primes. It's hard to beat. That's why they went to 4 straight finals.

LeBron could have stayed in Cleveland and done the same thing. He chose to go to Miami because winning a championship was more important to him. The amount of money these guys get anyways is so much does the extra money really mean that much?

The Mavericks beat the Heat with a vastly inferior team. The biggest weaknesses that Bulls team had was at SG and JJ would have solved that problem. Getting him changes everything.

Yes Bron could have stayed in Cle but he didn't care about the difference in salary. He's sign a couple of max deals since then and has tons of advertisements. Bron probably was making more in endorsements than BB salary. That was JJ's last big money deal. He doesn't have those deals. It's different for him.

Just because we fix our biggest weakness doesn't mean you're beating 3 hall of famers in their prime. Look at the year before they came together, Bron won MVP, Wade was #5 and Bosh was #12 in MVP voting. Even if JJ is better, Rose was still really bad in the clutch and then they have the other of Bron or Wade to cover him. It just wasn't happening for that team. The only teams that beat them were teams with really good ball movement and outside shooting. The Bulls had neither.

Dirk and Terry were playing lights out and making crazy shots. I don't want to call a champ a fluke. But there is a reason they never came close to duplicating that.

[TheStig]

Yes even a combo of him and Boozer would have been enough. JJ made a mistake resigning with the Hawks. Bulls still could have signed him to a max deal.

He didn't make a mistake. They gave him the biggest contract in the league at the time. It was 2 more max years with higher raises. He never saw anything close to that money after that deal expired.

Would it have been enough. Rose was dreadful in all the 4th quarters as soon as they switched Bron or Wade on him. Boozer wasn't a factor either. I think you look at the final scores and see the grind it out style and think it was a lot closer than it was. It really wasn't. We couldn't do anything down the stretch. They had all world defenders to throw at rose. I don't know that JJ could get us 3 more wins. Maybe 2 more. But those are all time greats in their primes. It's hard to beat. That's why they went to 4 straight finals.

Just FYI, it was one more max year - he could resign with the Hawks for 6 years, 5 if he changed teams. http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap05.htm#Q47

You're right but I remember the amount being a lot more due to raises or cap %. It was the biggest deal at the time.