Draft Thread Part 4

[God Squad]

Giddey as a less flashy Lamelo Ball is similar "super star potential". Giddey is taller but possibly slower like a Kyle Anderson at worst.

I think the LaMelo comparisons are lazy because he was drafted last year, I would say he's a less flashy Lonzo, who is as athletic and good at shooting as a player who accidentally time traveled from Jerry Lucas' era to the present day.

Nah, I think Giddey is less mechanical and jerky than Lonzo. He's like Rubio meets Kyle Anderson. But if a single player comp, I'd stick with Lamelo.

Closer to taller Rubio than Lamelo. Giddey doesn't have the stylistic passing that Melo has, and without it Melo would be another tall pg. LaMelo's handle/passing make it seem like he has "it". I don't see that with Giddey at all.

[God Squad]

Fred was a very good shooter in college. 80% FT shooter and close to 40% from 3 over his college career.

Mitchell doesn't have that kind resume. His shooting splits are more like Beverely/Smart over his college career.

Davion's career college 3FG% is 37.6% vs. 38.6% for Fred so not really all that different. What is different is Mitchell shot 52.5% on 2s vs. only 44.7% for Fred. We sure are making a big deal out of 2 FTAs per game when the much bigger sample sizes from the field would indicate Mitchell is a quality scorer. FWIW Beverley was 46% on 2s and Smart was 48% on 2s and 29% on 3s so saying Mitchell's splits were more like those guys isn't really giving him a fair shake.

Davion's FT% by year:
67%
66%
64%

Davion 3PT% by year:
28%
32%
45%


VanVleet was a consistent shooter throughout his college career. Davion hasnt been, other than the one outlier.

There gonna ignore numbers and say something along of the lines of "first step, tourney, DPOY and Kemba lite"

[God Squad]

Bouknight is just as athletic if not more, a better proven scorer, a better shooter, same height, better separation skills and potential to be a solid defender.

Keon is the better defender right now, that's about all he has on JB

Why do you like keon better? Are you aware of Bouknight

They actually shot about the same in terms of shooting percentages. Bouknight shot 44.7% from the field, 29.3% from the 3 point line and 77.8% from the FT line, while Keon averaged 44.9% from the field, 27.1% from the 3 point line, and 70.3% from the free throw line. Keon also played less more minutes per game and didn't average as much points as Bouknight but Bouknight in his freshman year only averaged 13PPG while Keon averaged 11PPG, which isn't that big a difference.

The advantages that Keon has over Bouknight right now are simple: Keon's a better playmaker already, a year younger, and already is an elite defender.

Yes he's a better defender. I wouldn't say he's elite yet but that's picking straws.

Yeah keon is younger, born 2002 compared to 2000

The lack of play making in college doesn't really concern me, that could be role, program, lack of surrounding talent.

I ain't mad at Keon, I just think James Bouknight game is more conducive to stardom

Bouknight couldn't make the basic of passes/reads in college and consistently forced jump shots. I see the appeal but he can easily be athletic barbosa or another Jordan Clarkson. The typical off the bench chucker who cares about his. In terms of Bouknights development he needs to show much more as a passer, because his vision as of now is atrocious.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Of all these, only the third seems viable and, again, this seems like a temporary problem at best. Jokic and Doncic aren't good because they speak English, but I'm sure it helped them adapt at the time. That's a development aspect, not a prospect evaluating aspect. If Doncic spoke no English, he would still be the best player in that draft hands down.

Maybe this generation of players is better prepared for the NBA. The guy I always remember is Vassilis Spanoulis who Houston brought over and after one year he left after for family reasons. I don't know how much the culture adjustment played into it, but Van Gundy barely played Spanoulis as a rookie and probably the combo of being away from home and not understanding what they needed from him led to him leaving. Of course, Spanoulis went on to be a multi-time MVP and one of the best Europeans to not make it in the NBA. Likely this is a non-issue, but I also remember how Bruno struggled with language when he came to Toronto. It has to be a hard adjustment for non-native English speakers.

Yao Ming... no English, no problem. Same coach. Bruno had a bunch of barriers, really, he barely played at his previous level, was late to the sport, and the team had a really poor plan for getting him experience. They wouldn't let him practice with the team (Casey cut Bebe and Bruno out of their regular practices in their first season), and then they sent him to Fort Wayne. I think there was a lot going on there beyond just the language and you'd hope that Masai et al would have learned from that.

Of course, the adjustment is always a huge unknown, but that can be said for every teenager entering the league. I'm always willing to acknowledge the many ways players can end up busting, and that overall the odds of success aren't that great even for the top prospects. Unfortunately in this draft there's a lot of one year players and limited data in the lotto. And then traditionally older players that jump into the lotto are unsuccessful (with the caveat of the smaller school superstars like Curry and Lillard). But at #7 the Raptors have a shot at landing an all-NBA player, and I'm trying to suss out which ones have the best chance. Sengun seems like one of them.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I'm out on keon Johnson. Moody and Bouknight would both be on the board at 7 and I'd easily rather those 2 over Johnson. His jumper is way further behind compared to those 2 and if we want two way upside moody is bigger with a better jumper and maybe a better fit

I wonder if we want a 2 guard when we have two poor creators in FVV and Siakam. I'd say we need more playmaking than shotmaking because even when Toronto was kind of good this past year the offence didn't have a good flow unless in transition. I mean we tried the all out offence of GTJr and it didn't lead to more wins.

I think it is partially the reason they were interested in Giddey. Could be due diligence but I think at the least given his lack of scoring and defence, they really liked his creation upside. It is why I rate Sharife and Mitchell so high. This metric rates Sharife as elite, but I am curious if a guy I am not as high on is there (Scottie Barnes) because he was their lead creator.

Read on Twitter

Wouldn't "how many points you create from assists" be based on your teammates making shots?

And we don’t have a team full of shooters. Adding playmaking just makes us a better RS team that will get completely destroyed in the playoffs because we have no high level shot creators on our team.

We aren’t going to get one through FA so I don’t know why there is a significant portion of our fan base that is okay just getting someone that defends and passes well as the main draw while we hope and pray he isn’t a bust offensively

[UnbelievablyRAW]

We already saw how bad Draymond looked without Steph and now we’re looking for someone in the Draymond mild without addressing our lack of shot creation or consistent shooting. Thats a recipe for a terrible offense with no Kyle to save us next year

[UnbelievablyRAW]

They actually shot about the same in terms of shooting percentages. Bouknight shot 44.7% from the field, 29.3% from the 3 point line and 77.8% from the FT line, while Keon averaged 44.9% from the field, 27.1% from the 3 point line, and 70.3% from the free throw line. Keon also played less more minutes per game and didn't average as much points as Bouknight but Bouknight in his freshman year only averaged 13PPG while Keon averaged 11PPG, which isn't that big a difference.

The advantages that Keon has over Bouknight right now are simple: Keon's a better playmaker already, a year younger, and already is an elite defender.

Yes he's a better defender. I wouldn't say he's elite yet but that's picking straws.

Yeah keon is younger, born 2002 compared to 2000

The lack of play making in college doesn't really concern me, that could be role, program, lack of surrounding talent.

I ain't mad at Keon, I just think James Bouknight game is more conducive to stardom

Bouknight couldn't make the basic of passes/reads in college and consistently forced jump shots. I see the appeal but he can easily be athletic barbosa or another Jordan Clarkson. The typical off the bench chucker who cares about his. In terms of Bouknights development he needs to show much more as a passer, because his vision as of now is atrocious.

His team was complete ass and had negative spacing. Go look at the same highlights where he isn’t passing and see how they had two bigs in the paint like it was 2005. The fact he hogged so much and was still relatively efficient at high volume (while being doubled all the time like with his 40pt game) is not smoke and mirrors. We would be drafting this kid to be a spark plug sixth man in limited minutes as well so he won’t have to worry about carrying an offense like he did at UConn

Watching his ESPN film session he acknowledges that playmaking is what he needs to take the next step and ALSO that his role on UConn was to just score so that’s why he played the way that he did. If we’re going to pass on a clearly talented scorer because he didn’t pass to his terrible teammates in college idk what to say.

Somehow we’re more convinced we can birth a jumpshot for nonshooters than our ability to integrate a rookie into a winning culture with a whole training camp and development team behind him. Hell, we got Derozan to start passing a year before he left for the Spurs and grew into point Demar

[ATLTimekeeper]

And we don’t have a team full of shooters. Adding playmaking just makes us a better RS team that will get completely destroyed in the playoffs because we have no high level shot creators on our team.

We aren’t going to get one through FA so I don’t know why there is a significant portion of our fan base that is okay just getting someone that defends and passes well as the main draw while we hope and pray he isn’t a bust offensively

We were 4th in 3PM. We had a bunch of shooters. How you get more creation is really debatable. No matter what, plugging specific holes with a mid-lotto pick is bad process. So, no to Bouknight and Barnes.

[WuTang_CMB]

I think Nurse would love a guy like Keon Johnson. We saw how much he played McCaw during his time here (I'm the majority - I never liked McCaw's game) but Keon is way more intense, has better defense, can break out in transition... just needs massive improvement on his shot and creation.

The upside is there and it seems his character is too ... definitely on our list at 7/8

[DreamTeam09]

And we don’t have a team full of shooters. Adding playmaking just makes us a better RS team that will get completely destroyed in the playoffs because we have no high level shot creators on our team.

We aren’t going to get one through FA so I don’t know why there is a significant portion of our fan base that is okay just getting someone that defends and passes well as the main draw while we hope and pray he isn’t a bust offensively

We were 4th in 3PM. We had a bunch of shooters. How you get more creation is really debatable. No matter what, plugging specific holes with a mid-lotto pick is bad process. So, no to Bouknight and Barnes.

So what exactly are you hoping for from a mid-lotto pick. ??

I personally think that's exactly what you do with draft picks. Take the player that you know their attributes will translate, especially into the system that you're running if you're a well run organization.

You can still select the BPA while having a defined role for that player and their skillset.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

And we don’t have a team full of shooters. Adding playmaking just makes us a better RS team that will get completely destroyed in the playoffs because we have no high level shot creators on our team.

We aren’t going to get one through FA so I don’t know why there is a significant portion of our fan base that is okay just getting someone that defends and passes well as the main draw while we hope and pray he isn’t a bust offensively

We were 4th in 3PM. We had a bunch of shooters. How you get more creation is really debatable. No matter what, plugging specific holes with a mid-lotto pick is bad process. So, no to Bouknight and Barnes.

….because we were 4th in attempts. We were dead middle at 15th in 3PT% with the likes of the great Charlotte Hornets, Pacers and Bulls. Like I said, we are not a consistent shooting team and lack elite shot creation. We are in position to draft one of the top 3-5 scorers from this years draft who also has good physical measurements, I’m even willing to go with Keon because even though the shot isn’t all the way there he at least has shown ability to create for himself

Again, whoever we draft is probably coming off the bench indefinitely and I feel Bouknight would benefit the most playing within our system given that role. There is no BPA that is head and shoulders above everyone at that range either

[DreamTeam09]

Yes he's a better defender. I wouldn't say he's elite yet but that's picking straws.

Yeah keon is younger, born 2002 compared to 2000

The lack of play making in college doesn't really concern me, that could be role, program, lack of surrounding talent.

I ain't mad at Keon, I just think James Bouknight game is more conducive to stardom

Bouknight couldn't make the basic of passes/reads in college and consistently forced jump shots. I see the appeal but he can easily be athletic barbosa or another Jordan Clarkson. The typical off the bench chucker who cares about his. In terms of Bouknights development he needs to show much more as a passer, because his vision as of now is atrocious.

His team was complete ass and had negative spacing. Go look at the same highlights where he isn’t passing and see how they had two bigs in the paint like it was 2005. The fact he hogged so much and was still relatively efficient at high volume (while being doubled all the time like with his 40pt game) is not smoke and mirrors. We would be drafting this kid to be a spark plug sixth man in limited minutes as well so he won’t have to worry about carrying an offense like he did at UConn

Watching his ESPN film session he acknowledges that playmaking is what he needs to take the next step and ALSO that his role on UConn was to just score so that’s why he played the way that he did. If we’re going to pass on a clearly talented scorer because he didn’t pass to his terrible teammates in college idk what to say.

Somehow we’re more convinced we can birth a jumpshot for nonshooters than our ability to integrate a rookie into a winning culture with a whole training camp and development team behind him. Hell, we got Derozan to start passing a year before he left for the Spurs and grew into point Demar

That's what I'm saying, I'd much rather try and develop someone's passing ability and or the reads that they see, than to try and develop someone's offensive game and or jumper. One seems a lot more easier to me. I'm not worried about hogs in college, especially if they don't seem to be a low IQ player. Bounkight has probably been the best player on every team he's ever played on, that wont be the case in the NBA, definitely not right away either

And like you said, I would force some things too if my coaching staff built the offense around me and my teammates are ass.

[Indeed]

And we don’t have a team full of shooters. Adding playmaking just makes us a better RS team that will get completely destroyed in the playoffs because we have no high level shot creators on our team.

We aren’t going to get one through FA so I don’t know why there is a significant portion of our fan base that is okay just getting someone that defends and passes well as the main draw while we hope and pray he isn’t a bust offensively

We were 4th in 3PM. We had a bunch of shooters. How you get more creation is really debatable. No matter what, plugging specific holes with a mid-lotto pick is bad process. So, no to Bouknight and Barnes.

….because we were 4th in attempts. We were dead middle at 15th in 3PT% with the likes of the great Charlotte Hornets, Pacers and Bulls. Like I said, we are not a consistent shooting team and lack elite shot creation. We are in position to draft one of the top 3-5 scorers from this years draft who also has good physical measurements, I’m even willing to go with Keon because even though the shot isn’t all the way there he at least has shown ability to create for himself

Again, whoever we draft is probably coming off the bench indefinitely and I feel Bouknight would benefit the most playing within our system given that role. There is no BPA that is head and shoulders above everyone at that range either

I don't worry too much about our 3 point shooting, as we might replace Stanley Johnson, McCaw, etc. with some 3 & D prospects.

Meanwhile, I am not sure why you are objecting for a playmaker who is basically a shot creator who can make great pass.

[WuTang_CMB]

We need elite shot creation to take the pressure off of FVV, Siakam - much like how Kawhi created. Not to mention it will help where we were awful - last 5 minutes of the game and couldnt get in late game scoring.

I am not sure we can get that at 7/8 but we should find guys that have the tools to do it and get better.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

We were 4th in 3PM. We had a bunch of shooters. How you get more creation is really debatable. No matter what, plugging specific holes with a mid-lotto pick is bad process. So, no to Bouknight and Barnes.

….because we were 4th in attempts. We were dead middle at 15th in 3PT% with the likes of the great Charlotte Hornets, Pacers and Bulls. Like I said, we are not a consistent shooting team and lack elite shot creation. We are in position to draft one of the top 3-5 scorers from this years draft who also has good physical measurements, I’m even willing to go with Keon because even though the shot isn’t all the way there he at least has shown ability to create for himself

Again, whoever we draft is probably coming off the bench indefinitely and I feel Bouknight would benefit the most playing within our system given that role. There is no BPA that is head and shoulders above everyone at that range either

I don't worry too much about our 3 point shooting, as we might replace Stanley Johnson, McCaw, etc. with some 3 & D prospects.

Meanwhile, I am not sure why you are objecting for a playmaker who is basically a shot creator who can make great pass.

Well for one who are these replacements? We can’t just assume we are gonna improve our shooting out of thin air and what we have puts us at 15/16th offensively (mediocre)

Adding passing doesn’t really help that when the issue is that we have to Jack up so many 3’s because we can’t create any better looks outside of FVV terrible ISOs or Siakam 1on1. We may get marginally better but in the playoffs we are destined to be fodder until we get a shot creator that can score against great defenses.

There are zero playoff teams rn that don’t have a guy that fits the mould of an elite shot creator that can get you 30. Even the Wizards have Beal and the Grizzlies with Ja. We have no one. Without Kyle turning back the clock and scoring 20+ every game we would have gotten embarrassed by the Celtics in the playoffs 2 years ago

[mtcan]

I think the LaMelo comparisons are lazy because he was drafted last year, I would say he's a less flashy Lonzo, who is as athletic and good at shooting as a player who accidentally time traveled from Jerry Lucas' era to the present day.

Nah, I think Giddey is less mechanical and jerky than Lonzo. He's like Rubio meets Kyle Anderson. But if a single player comp, I'd stick with Lamelo.

Closer to taller Rubio than Lamelo. Giddey doesn't have the stylistic passing that Melo has, and without it Melo would be another tall pg. LaMelo's handle/passing make it seem like he has "it". I don't see that with Giddey at all.

Giddey is Joe Ingles...not because they are both Australian...but they are both of a similar build, are really good passers and not known to be athletic. Giddey at 18 is probably better than Ingles at 18 but in order to reach the floor that is Ingles...Giddey needs to improve his shooting and awareness on D. Ingles is very crafty so his BBIQ makes up for his lack of athleticism...so hopefully Giddey is able to develop that level of IQ as well.

[Jerry Lucas]

Someone commented on a Blake Murphy article saying he was sleeping on Jalen Green by ranking him 4th, and Blake held firm with his take. That's gonna be a fat receipt for that commenter to pull up in few years or less lmao what a legend.

[StringerBell]

I love when the raps have a 1st round pick. I can watch highlights and talk about this ish forever. The only picks I ever gotten right were DeMar and Bargnani, in terms of who the raps were gonna select.

Even just writing that makes me think where DeMar and Bargnani go in this draft. DeMar would be top 6 with a case as high as 2, Bargnani wouldn't go infront of LMA or Mobley this time tho but he'd still be top 10 too.

Neway. The nba is going towards shot creators with size. Either shots for yourself or shots for your teammates, or both if you wanna be a superstar.

That's why I like

James Bouknight
Tre Mann
Moody
Barnes
Ayo Dosumnu
Giddy

Now they all have their flaws but I'd rather fix flaws than build something they haven't/can't do or put them into roles they've never been in before.

Not necessarily in that order, but I like those 4 as well. All offer different skillsets but all have great potential. edit/See you're not a fan of Johnson, but I'd throw him in there as well.

[Indeed]

….because we were 4th in attempts. We were dead middle at 15th in 3PT% with the likes of the great Charlotte Hornets, Pacers and Bulls. Like I said, we are not a consistent shooting team and lack elite shot creation. We are in position to draft one of the top 3-5 scorers from this years draft who also has good physical measurements, I’m even willing to go with Keon because even though the shot isn’t all the way there he at least has shown ability to create for himself

Again, whoever we draft is probably coming off the bench indefinitely and I feel Bouknight would benefit the most playing within our system given that role. There is no BPA that is head and shoulders above everyone at that range either

I don't worry too much about our 3 point shooting, as we might replace Stanley Johnson, McCaw, etc. with some 3 & D prospects.

Meanwhile, I am not sure why you are objecting for a playmaker who is basically a shot creator who can make great pass.

Well for one who are these replacements? We can’t just assume we are gonna improve our shooting out of thin air and what we have puts us at 15/16th offensively (mediocre)

Adding passing doesn’t really help that when the issue is that we have to Jack up so many 3’s because we can’t create any better looks outside of FVV terrible ISOs or Siakam 1on1. We may get marginally better but in the playoffs we are destined to be fodder until we get a shot creator that can score against great defenses.

There are zero playoff teams rn that don’t have a guy that fits the mould of an elite shot creator that can get you 30. Even the Wizards have Beal and the Grizzlies with Ja. We have no one. Without Kyle turning back the clock and scoring 20+ every game we would have gotten embarrassed by the Celtics in the playoffs 2 years ago

Again, Playmaker is Creator + Passer, they create and allow shooters to take high efficient shots.

Meanwhile, how do you define elite shot creator? Someone that can get you 30 without caring about usage and attempts?

As for Beal and Morant, they are playmaker, both of them averaging more than 4 assists a game, but they play Guards.

[DreamTeam09]

Watch on YouTube

Here is a game where Keon goes for 27 points, and really I'm not impressed on how it came about. He clearly likes that short turn around shot over smaller defenders, but he wasn't very consistent on it, and it looked really flat at times. In the NBA he'll have guys bigger or just as strong on him most of the times. Tried to create separation several times but didn't do it well enough. He has insane bounce, but doesn't look explosive on his straight line drives, I don't know what to make of that or how to explain it.

You see the defense, the energy, and the motor, he hits FTS, and still scored 27 points, so I see the appeal. I personally wouldn't take him in the top10 tho.

Watch on YouTube

Now when you contrast that to how Bouknight scores 24 points in this game it's like night and day on the offensive side of the ball. Bouknight was shooting coming down off of pin downs, off of curls, pull up jumpers, showed his first step and got into the lane. Has hang time to draw the contact, went to his floaters a couple time. His offensive game is just on a different level compared to Keon. And he has BOUNCE!! He's not a liability on defense either, and has some upside actually.