The Trey Lance thread

[Scoots1994]

Ack Cohn ... no.

[Jikkle]

I wanted to add that arguably Garoppolo's biggest weakness is his poor downfield passing, and he's been really good in this system generally speaking. And he has weaknesses that I don't think Lance does. Obviously he doesn't have the mobility and threat to run, and he misses easy reads with some regularity (Lance does, too, but I'm more willing to forgive that in a young player). He also has a penchant for throwing incredibly dumb INTs that I don't think Lance will.

So in some ways, I see Lance as almost having a floor of Garoppolo with the running added in, which is pretty darn good. Though Jimmy is nails on the short- and mid-range stuff when he's at his best, and he has (or at least had) that lightning-quick release. If Lance isn't bringing deep accuracy, he'll have to be nearly flawless on the shorter stuff, and even then, I don't know that he will merit what we gave up to get him. If he can develop that along with the other elements of his game that need less substantial changes, he could be a generational talent. But I think it's a big if. Garoppolo is a stark example of a guy who has never come close to figuring out his own deep-ball accuracy.

I think Lance will excel in 3 ways compared to Jimmy.

Jimmy playing a full season is probably always a double-digit INT guy whereas Lance when he matures as a QB will probably be a single digit INT guy. Lance should take less sacks compared to Jimmy so on the whole you're likely getting less negative plays with Lance.

Lance ability to run the ball is another advantage. We're not running a Lamar Jackson offense, we're not running him up the gut to try to run over LBs, and he won't run nearly as much as he did in college but Kyle will run him enough the defenses have to account for him or Lance will make him pay with his feet. Kyle is very much a run first kind of coach and he'll use Lance to further open up the running game.

The ability to throw on the run is where he'll really separate himself. He's a natural at it and Kyle will give him the designed bootlegs but he'll also be able to play hero ball and run away from a sack and hit a guy down the field while rolling out.

[Scoots1994]

I don't know how many here were fans in the 70s, but this reminds me of DeBerg/Montana as well as Montana/Young. Walsh's method for bringing along new QBs was to use them in ways that were things they did better than the veteran but where they were VERY likely to succeed. He knew he needed to have the practice convert to success on the field both for the players and the fans. Another Walsh trait was that he never cared at all what fans thought/wanted and I think Shanahan has that already.

I hope we get to see some low pressure mid-field high protection motion plays for Trey several plays a game.

[CrimsonCrew]

Grant and Lowell Cohn discussing a back-and-forth between Grant and Shanahan about Lance's mechanics and accuracy.

Watch on YouTube

A couple disclaimers. First, I'm not a huge Grant Cohn fan, and I actively dislike Lowell Cohn, and this video really accentuates why. They are arrogant, entitled, and frankly pretty annoying. Interestingly, a lot of the attributes they don't like in Shanahan.

Second, I don't think Shanahan likes Grant very much. So it is entirely possible that Shanahan is just messing with him. But if that is the case, it would make me think less of Shanahan. And ultimately, I don't think you say something like this if it's not true.

And what Shanahan says is deeply troubling given that we drafted Lance instead of Fields or Jones. He's effectively saying that they aren't working with Lance on his mechanics. I think that's a huge mistake. There is something to be said for not messing with mechanics. A guy like Rivers, or even Fields, may have some mechanical oddities, but it works for him. He is an accurate thrower despite it. Lance is not. He needs work. And if they aren't spending a decent chunk of time working on that, it's hard for me to envision Lance becoming elite unless he undertakes it all on his own in the off-season.

I said going into this draft that really the only way you could justify Lance over Fields is if you think you can improve accuracy more easily than vision and anticipation. And that may be true. But if they aren't really even trying to improve Lance's accuracy, I've got major concerns about this project.

[Jikkle]

Grant Cohn can be hit or miss and I do like the fact he focuses more on the negative that beat writers tend to ignore so it gives you a more complete picture of what's happening. I do think he tends to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and some of his opinions can be pretty out there.

As far as Shanahan not working on Lance's mechanics I feel that's pretty standard in the NFL as guys usually get those worked on by personal coaches like Tom House and others like him. So I'm not particularly bothered by that as Lance is going to work on his mechanics and the coaches he works with give him drills to work to improve his mechanics. From what I understand it takes something like 10,000 reps for your body to learn something so it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

Mechanics will be a concern if he's not showing any signs of improvement. If he's in year 3 and still throwing high like he's currently doing it's a major issue. What I want to see (or hear about) is him be more and more mechanically solid as time goes on. He's going to have plays with sloppy mechanics as if you watch film on even the top tier QBs they have plays with sloppy mechanics and there is a reason why they still get coached up with their mechanics in the offseason 10+ years in the league.

[Dodub]

Grant and Lowell Cohn discussing a back-and-forth between Grant and Shanahan about Lance's mechanics and accuracy.

Watch on YouTube

A couple disclaimers. First, I'm not a huge Grant Cohn fan, and I actively dislike Lowell Cohn, and this video really accentuates why. They are arrogant, entitled, and frankly pretty annoying. Interestingly, a lot of the attributes they don't like in Shanahan.

Second, I don't think Shanahan likes Grant very much. So it is entirely possible that Shanahan is just messing with him. But if that is the case, it would make me think less of Shanahan. And ultimately, I don't think you say something like this if it's not true.

And what Shanahan says is deeply troubling given that we drafted Lance instead of Fields or Jones. He's effectively saying that they aren't working with Lance on his mechanics. I think that's a huge mistake. There is something to be said for not messing with mechanics. A guy like Rivers, or even Fields, may have some mechanical oddities, but it works for him. He is an accurate thrower despite it. Lance is not. He needs work. And if they aren't spending a decent chunk of time working on that, it's hard for me to envision Lance becoming elite unless he undertakes it all on his own in the off-season.

I said going into this draft that really the only way you could justify Lance over Fields is if you think you can improve accuracy more easily than vision and anticipation. And that may be true. But if they aren't really even trying to improve Lance's accuracy, I've got major concerns about this project.

Trey has worked on QB mechanics with a private QB coach for 6 months and his throwing mechanics now are significantly better than when he was playing, he doesn’t drop his eye level like he once did and he shortened his stride (both things outlined by JTO).

Grant is being lazy in his analysis simply because he’s using “mechanics” as a blanket statement to explain why a pass was errant. He’s basically clueless as to where in the mechanics things were off. He’s just talking for views at the moment and his fans eat that garbage up. He outlined TWO passes that Trey missed high in 7 on 7 and his response was “see it’s mechanics”.

During Trey’s pro day they raved about his improved mechanics and he did indeed miss a couple of passes high while throwing right. The guy commentating explained that right hand QB’s a lot of times will miss throwing right and prefer to throw left, because it forces them to open up more.

I prefer to listen to people break down QB play instead of saying “see it’s mechanics” after incompletions like Grant does.

[Scoots1994]

Lowell Cohn was much better than Grant has ever been, but as he aged he become more and more of a crank.

I'm absolutely certain the 49ers are working with Lance on mechanics, that does not mean they are working on them as part of the OTAs.

I don't know the specifics but I know there are a lot of limits on how much time players can spend with coaches, so they might be working on his mechanics through an outside coach.

[CrimsonCrew]

Grant Cohn can be hit or miss and I do like the fact he focuses more on the negative that beat writers tend to ignore so it gives you a more complete picture of what's happening. I do think he tends to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and some of his opinions can be pretty out there.

As far as Shanahan not working on Lance's mechanics I feel that's pretty standard in the NFL as guys usually get those worked on by personal coaches like Tom House and others like him. So I'm not particularly bothered by that as Lance is going to work on his mechanics and the coaches he works with give him drills to work to improve his mechanics. From what I understand it takes something like 10,000 reps for your body to learn something so it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

Mechanics will be a concern if he's not showing any signs of improvement. If he's in year 3 and still throwing high like he's currently doing it's a major issue. What I want to see (or hear about) is him be more and more mechanically solid as time goes on. He's going to have plays with sloppy mechanics as if you watch film on even the top tier QBs they have plays with sloppy mechanics and there is a reason why they still get coached up with their mechanics in the offseason 10+ years in the league.

I used to not like Grant Cohn much at all. He redeemed himself a bit over the past few years as he was clearly putting time and effort into possessing a deeper understanding of the game, actually watching film, etc. Still, I don't think he ever played the game, and certainly not at a high level. He's actually appeared to backslide a bit during the pandemic, though. I'm not a fan of a lot of his youtube stuff, where he appears to just be spending hours talking to Joe Normals about their perceptions of the Niners, the draft, etc.

I agree that one of the appeals of Cohn is that he definitely doesn't just toe the party line in terms of echoing what the team says without giving it a good, critical thought. Part of that is because he's contentious and arrogant, but as much as I like Maiocco and Barrows, I'd like to get some more critical stuff from them sometimes - not necessarily in terms of negatives, but just more incisive stuff.

In terms of Lance and his accuracy issues, there's a number of things going on here. First and foremost, the media has observed one practice in which Lance threw something like 24 passes total (at least outside of individual/position drills), and I think six in 11 on 11s (it may have even just been six drop-backs). So we're all talking and getting excited or worried about a tiny sample size from a guy who is still very young, is back in his first "live" action (to the extent we can call OTAs that) in almost a year, is digesting a very complicated offensive system, and acclimating to the speed of the NFL game. Drawing too many conclusions - drawing any conclusions, really - is a stretch at this point.

And in some ways, I'm sympathetic to a guy like Cohn, who is trying to create a week of content based on an hour of watching players and a few days of interviews. Hell, he had an article and video calling Jauan Jennings the surprise of OTAs, or something to that effect, based on literally a single route. It's the definition of knee-jerk reactions, but there's really nothing else to report on, so you run with what you've got, I guess.

Having said all of that, based on what I saw of his two pro days (all of one, maybe 7 or 8 passes of the other), Lance has not fixed his accuracy issues. He appears to have tightened up a lot of his mechanics, which will hopefully lead to less variance in his throws and thus more accuracy with greater repetitions (I think the 10,000 number you're referencing is the idea that you need to practice something 10,000 hours to become an expert, which is a Malcolm Gladwell idea; that would be mastering all the nuances of the QB position, a truly repetitive motion like throwing could presumably be mastered in less time, though longer for different ranges, types of throws, etc.). But he needed a lot of work, and it's at least a little concerning that Shanahan would give an answer which amounts to, "We're not working on his throwing motion with him."

I have tremendous respect for Shanahan as an offensive mind, but his track record with developing QBs isn't great, especially since joining the Niners. And he is arrogant and at times unyielding. As much as people breathed a sigh of relief and claimed he'd changed when he passed on Jones, taking Lance actually raises some Beathard-like red flags. A big part of what Shanahan liked about Beathard was that he came from an offense that had a lot of NFL concepts. The same is true of Lance relative to Fields and Jones (and Lawrence and Wilson, for that matter). I'm not comparing Lance and Beathard. Lance has much more physical talent, is probably smarter, and he's supposed to be just a dynamic, engaging personality. But the evaluation process raises some questions for me. And if Shanahan isn't committed to developing Lance's glaring weakness, it could prevent Lance from ever reaching the heights that would justify the trade/pick. Like it or not, he's going to be linked to Fields and Jones for his career, and we gave up a hell of a lot to get him specifically.

[CrimsonCrew]

Lowell Cohn was much better than Grant has ever been, but as he aged he become more and more of a crank.

I'm absolutely certain the 49ers are working with Lance on mechanics, that does not mean they are working on them as part of the OTAs.

I don't know the specifics but I know there are a lot of limits on how much time players can spend with coaches, so they might be working on his mechanics through an outside coach.

I was out of the Bay Area for almost 15 years starting in the late-90s (lived here for one year in the middle there), so maybe I missed Lowell's prime years. I recall him as a crank.

Coaches have commented on not being able to do some of that intense work with QBs on things like mechanics due to time limitations. Still, the comments were concerning.

[Dodub]

Grant Cohn can be hit or miss and I do like the fact he focuses more on the negative that beat writers tend to ignore so it gives you a more complete picture of what's happening. I do think he tends to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and some of his opinions can be pretty out there.

As far as Shanahan not working on Lance's mechanics I feel that's pretty standard in the NFL as guys usually get those worked on by personal coaches like Tom House and others like him. So I'm not particularly bothered by that as Lance is going to work on his mechanics and the coaches he works with give him drills to work to improve his mechanics. From what I understand it takes something like 10,000 reps for your body to learn something so it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

Mechanics will be a concern if he's not showing any signs of improvement. If he's in year 3 and still throwing high like he's currently doing it's a major issue. What I want to see (or hear about) is him be more and more mechanically solid as time goes on. He's going to have plays with sloppy mechanics as if you watch film on even the top tier QBs they have plays with sloppy mechanics and there is a reason why they still get coached up with their mechanics in the offseason 10+ years in the league.

I used to not like Grant Cohn much at all. He redeemed himself a bit over the past few years as he was clearly putting time and effort into possessing a deeper understanding of the game, actually watching film, etc. Still, I don't think he ever played the game, and certainly not at a high level. He's actually appeared to backslide a bit during the pandemic, though. I'm not a fan of a lot of his youtube stuff, where he appears to just be spending hours talking to Joe Normals about their perceptions of the Niners, the draft, etc.

I agree that one of the appeals of Cohn is that he definitely doesn't just toe the party line in terms of echoing what the team says without giving it a good, critical thought. Part of that is because he's contentious and arrogant, but as much as I like Maiocco and Barrows, I'd like to get some more critical stuff from them sometimes - not necessarily in terms of negatives, but just more incisive stuff.

In terms of Lance and his accuracy issues, there's a number of things going on here. First and foremost, the media has observed one practice in which Lance threw something like 24 passes total (at least outside of individual/position drills), and I think six in 11 on 11s (it may have even just been six drop-backs). So we're all talking and getting excited or worried about a tiny sample size from a guy who is still very young, is back in his first "live" action (to the extent we can call OTAs that) in almost a year, is digesting a very complicated offensive system, and acclimating to the speed of the NFL game. Drawing too many conclusions - drawing any conclusions, really - is a stretch at this point.

And in some ways, I'm sympathetic to a guy like Cohn, who is trying to create a week of content based on an hour of watching players and a few days of interviews. Hell, he had an article and video calling Jauan Jennings the surprise of OTAs, or something to that effect, based on literally a single route. It's the definition of knee-jerk reactions, but there's really nothing else to report on, so you run with what you've got, I guess.

Having said all of that, based on what I saw of his two pro days (all of one, maybe 7 or 8 passes of the other), Lance has not fixed his accuracy issues. He appears to have tightened up a lot of his mechanics, which will hopefully lead to less variance in his throws and thus more accuracy with greater repetitions (I think the 10,000 number you're referencing is the idea that you need to practice something 10,000 hours to become an expert, which is a Malcolm Gladwell idea; that would be mastering all the nuances of the QB position, a truly repetitive motion like throwing could presumably be mastered in less time, though longer for different ranges, types of throws, etc.). But he needed a lot of work, and it's at least a little concerning that Shanahan would give an answer which amounts to, "We're not working on his throwing motion with him."

I have tremendous respect for Shanahan as an offensive mind, but his track record with developing QBs isn't great, especially since joining the Niners. And he is arrogant and at times unyielding. As much as people breathed a sigh of relief and claimed he'd changed when he passed on Jones, taking Lance actually raises some Beathard-like red flags. A big part of what Shanahan liked about Beathard was that he came from an offense that had a lot of NFL concepts. The same is true of Lance relative to Fields and Jones (and Lawrence and Wilson, for that matter). I'm not comparing Lance and Beathard. Lance has much more physical talent, is probably smarter, and he's supposed to be just a dynamic, engaging personality. But the evaluation process raises some questions for me. And if Shanahan isn't committed to developing Lance's glaring weakness, it could prevent Lance from ever reaching the heights that would justify the trade/pick. Like it or not, he's going to be linked to Fields and Jones for his career, and we gave up a hell of a lot to get him specifically.

Crims, accuracy has a lot more that goes into it than mechanics though. Timing, anticipation, chemistry, etc. are huge determinants for accuracy. Even the most accurate QB of all time will struggle with accuracy when working with a new group of WR’s. Keep in mind that in both of his pro days, Lance was running plays that he had not ran much before as they tailored them to NFL groups who were QB needy, every other QB scripted easy workouts to make them look like rockstars.

What would be scary is Mac Jones. He was very inaccurate during his pro day and these are guys that he works with every day.

[Scoots1994]

Lowell Cohn was much better than Grant has ever been, but as he aged he become more and more of a crank.

I'm absolutely certain the 49ers are working with Lance on mechanics, that does not mean they are working on them as part of the OTAs.

I don't know the specifics but I know there are a lot of limits on how much time players can spend with coaches, so they might be working on his mechanics through an outside coach.

I was out of the Bay Area for almost 15 years starting in the late-90s (lived here for one year in the middle there), so maybe I missed Lowell's prime years. I recall him as a crank.

Coaches have commented on not being able to do some of that intense work with QBs on things like mechanics due to time limitations. Still, the comments were concerning.

I'm going to age myself here, but I remember Walsh getting Montana to essentially live at the facility from the draft to the season to completely pick everything apart. It's just not possible anymore. Teams have to rely on outside specialists that the players have to pay for themselves.

[CrimsonCrew]

Grant Cohn can be hit or miss and I do like the fact he focuses more on the negative that beat writers tend to ignore so it gives you a more complete picture of what's happening. I do think he tends to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and some of his opinions can be pretty out there.

As far as Shanahan not working on Lance's mechanics I feel that's pretty standard in the NFL as guys usually get those worked on by personal coaches like Tom House and others like him. So I'm not particularly bothered by that as Lance is going to work on his mechanics and the coaches he works with give him drills to work to improve his mechanics. From what I understand it takes something like 10,000 reps for your body to learn something so it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

Mechanics will be a concern if he's not showing any signs of improvement. If he's in year 3 and still throwing high like he's currently doing it's a major issue. What I want to see (or hear about) is him be more and more mechanically solid as time goes on. He's going to have plays with sloppy mechanics as if you watch film on even the top tier QBs they have plays with sloppy mechanics and there is a reason why they still get coached up with their mechanics in the offseason 10+ years in the league.

I used to not like Grant Cohn much at all. He redeemed himself a bit over the past few years as he was clearly putting time and effort into possessing a deeper understanding of the game, actually watching film, etc. Still, I don't think he ever played the game, and certainly not at a high level. He's actually appeared to backslide a bit during the pandemic, though. I'm not a fan of a lot of his youtube stuff, where he appears to just be spending hours talking to Joe Normals about their perceptions of the Niners, the draft, etc.

I agree that one of the appeals of Cohn is that he definitely doesn't just toe the party line in terms of echoing what the team says without giving it a good, critical thought. Part of that is because he's contentious and arrogant, but as much as I like Maiocco and Barrows, I'd like to get some more critical stuff from them sometimes - not necessarily in terms of negatives, but just more incisive stuff.

In terms of Lance and his accuracy issues, there's a number of things going on here. First and foremost, the media has observed one practice in which Lance threw something like 24 passes total (at least outside of individual/position drills), and I think six in 11 on 11s (it may have even just been six drop-backs). So we're all talking and getting excited or worried about a tiny sample size from a guy who is still very young, is back in his first "live" action (to the extent we can call OTAs that) in almost a year, is digesting a very complicated offensive system, and acclimating to the speed of the NFL game. Drawing too many conclusions - drawing any conclusions, really - is a stretch at this point.

And in some ways, I'm sympathetic to a guy like Cohn, who is trying to create a week of content based on an hour of watching players and a few days of interviews. Hell, he had an article and video calling Jauan Jennings the surprise of OTAs, or something to that effect, based on literally a single route. It's the definition of knee-jerk reactions, but there's really nothing else to report on, so you run with what you've got, I guess.

Having said all of that, based on what I saw of his two pro days (all of one, maybe 7 or 8 passes of the other), Lance has not fixed his accuracy issues. He appears to have tightened up a lot of his mechanics, which will hopefully lead to less variance in his throws and thus more accuracy with greater repetitions (I think the 10,000 number you're referencing is the idea that you need to practice something 10,000 hours to become an expert, which is a Malcolm Gladwell idea; that would be mastering all the nuances of the QB position, a truly repetitive motion like throwing could presumably be mastered in less time, though longer for different ranges, types of throws, etc.). But he needed a lot of work, and it's at least a little concerning that Shanahan would give an answer which amounts to, "We're not working on his throwing motion with him."

I have tremendous respect for Shanahan as an offensive mind, but his track record with developing QBs isn't great, especially since joining the Niners. And he is arrogant and at times unyielding. As much as people breathed a sigh of relief and claimed he'd changed when he passed on Jones, taking Lance actually raises some Beathard-like red flags. A big part of what Shanahan liked about Beathard was that he came from an offense that had a lot of NFL concepts. The same is true of Lance relative to Fields and Jones (and Lawrence and Wilson, for that matter). I'm not comparing Lance and Beathard. Lance has much more physical talent, is probably smarter, and he's supposed to be just a dynamic, engaging personality. But the evaluation process raises some questions for me. And if Shanahan isn't committed to developing Lance's glaring weakness, it could prevent Lance from ever reaching the heights that would justify the trade/pick. Like it or not, he's going to be linked to Fields and Jones for his career, and we gave up a hell of a lot to get him specifically.

Crims, accuracy has a lot more that goes into it than mechanics though. Timing, anticipation, chemistry, etc. are huge determinants for accuracy. Even the most accurate QB of all time will struggle with accuracy when working with a new group of WR’s. Keep in mind that in both of his pro days, Lance was running plays that he had not ran much before as they tailored them to NFL groups who were QB needy, every other QB scripted easy workouts to make them look like rockstars.

What would be scary is Mac Jones. He was very inaccurate during his pro day and these are guys that he works with every day.

I was starting to reply to your earlier post when the kids woke up from their nap. I agree that there is more to accuracy than mechanics, and getting comfortable with new receivers is certainly part of that which I should have mentioned above. But missing high suggests at least a degree of mechanics. Lance didn't throw over the middle a ton in college, so that could be part of it, too.

As said, it's one very short practice and a handful of throws. But it is something to keep an eye on going forward.

[CrimsonCrew]

And re: Lowell vs. Grant, I would not dispute that Lowell was the better journalist. I barely view Grant as a journalist. I'm more talking about his eye for personnel evaluation. I think he has improved there, and is likely superior to his dad, but what passes for journalism these days is pretty watered down compared to 20+ years ago (these darn kids!). Grant wins me over a bit with his reviews of practices. He tends to give more details and cover a wider range of players than most of the other media guys, though again, I think at least at times he bases that on a very limited sample size and can draw sweeping generalizations. And frankly, there's only so much you can glean from watching guys in these practices anyway.

[Dodub]

I used to not like Grant Cohn much at all. He redeemed himself a bit over the past few years as he was clearly putting time and effort into possessing a deeper understanding of the game, actually watching film, etc. Still, I don't think he ever played the game, and certainly not at a high level. He's actually appeared to backslide a bit during the pandemic, though. I'm not a fan of a lot of his youtube stuff, where he appears to just be spending hours talking to Joe Normals about their perceptions of the Niners, the draft, etc.

I agree that one of the appeals of Cohn is that he definitely doesn't just toe the party line in terms of echoing what the team says without giving it a good, critical thought. Part of that is because he's contentious and arrogant, but as much as I like Maiocco and Barrows, I'd like to get some more critical stuff from them sometimes - not necessarily in terms of negatives, but just more incisive stuff.

In terms of Lance and his accuracy issues, there's a number of things going on here. First and foremost, the media has observed one practice in which Lance threw something like 24 passes total (at least outside of individual/position drills), and I think six in 11 on 11s (it may have even just been six drop-backs). So we're all talking and getting excited or worried about a tiny sample size from a guy who is still very young, is back in his first "live" action (to the extent we can call OTAs that) in almost a year, is digesting a very complicated offensive system, and acclimating to the speed of the NFL game. Drawing too many conclusions - drawing any conclusions, really - is a stretch at this point.

And in some ways, I'm sympathetic to a guy like Cohn, who is trying to create a week of content based on an hour of watching players and a few days of interviews. Hell, he had an article and video calling Jauan Jennings the surprise of OTAs, or something to that effect, based on literally a single route. It's the definition of knee-jerk reactions, but there's really nothing else to report on, so you run with what you've got, I guess.

Having said all of that, based on what I saw of his two pro days (all of one, maybe 7 or 8 passes of the other), Lance has not fixed his accuracy issues. He appears to have tightened up a lot of his mechanics, which will hopefully lead to less variance in his throws and thus more accuracy with greater repetitions (I think the 10,000 number you're referencing is the idea that you need to practice something 10,000 hours to become an expert, which is a Malcolm Gladwell idea; that would be mastering all the nuances of the QB position, a truly repetitive motion like throwing could presumably be mastered in less time, though longer for different ranges, types of throws, etc.). But he needed a lot of work, and it's at least a little concerning that Shanahan would give an answer which amounts to, "We're not working on his throwing motion with him."

I have tremendous respect for Shanahan as an offensive mind, but his track record with developing QBs isn't great, especially since joining the Niners. And he is arrogant and at times unyielding. As much as people breathed a sigh of relief and claimed he'd changed when he passed on Jones, taking Lance actually raises some Beathard-like red flags. A big part of what Shanahan liked about Beathard was that he came from an offense that had a lot of NFL concepts. The same is true of Lance relative to Fields and Jones (and Lawrence and Wilson, for that matter). I'm not comparing Lance and Beathard. Lance has much more physical talent, is probably smarter, and he's supposed to be just a dynamic, engaging personality. But the evaluation process raises some questions for me. And if Shanahan isn't committed to developing Lance's glaring weakness, it could prevent Lance from ever reaching the heights that would justify the trade/pick. Like it or not, he's going to be linked to Fields and Jones for his career, and we gave up a hell of a lot to get him specifically.

Crims, accuracy has a lot more that goes into it than mechanics though. Timing, anticipation, chemistry, etc. are huge determinants for accuracy. Even the most accurate QB of all time will struggle with accuracy when working with a new group of WR’s. Keep in mind that in both of his pro days, Lance was running plays that he had not ran much before as they tailored them to NFL groups who were QB needy, every other QB scripted easy workouts to make them look like rockstars.

What would be scary is Mac Jones. He was very inaccurate during his pro day and these are guys that he works with every day.

I was starting to reply to your earlier post when the kids woke up from their nap. I agree that there is more to accuracy than mechanics, and getting comfortable with new receivers is certainly part of that which I should have mentioned above. But missing high suggests at least a degree of mechanics. Lance didn't throw over the middle a ton in college, so that could be part of it, too.

As said, it's one very short practice and a handful of throws. But it is something to keep an eye on going forward.

Completely understand the kid piece lol

As far as missing high, this could be as simple as adjusting to NFL windows which as significantly tighter than college. It’s just one practice in May of his rookie year, I remember Matt Ryan’s first passes as a Falcon were wobbly ducks straight to the ground. I just like that Grant Cohn needs some click bait for his YouTube channel.

[clyde21]

both Cohns are terrible.

[Pattersonca65]

Grant Cohn can be hit or miss and I do like the fact he focuses more on the negative that beat writers tend to ignore so it gives you a more complete picture of what's happening. I do think he tends to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and some of his opinions can be pretty out there.

As far as Shanahan not working on Lance's mechanics I feel that's pretty standard in the NFL as guys usually get those worked on by personal coaches like Tom House and others like him. So I'm not particularly bothered by that as Lance is going to work on his mechanics and the coaches he works with give him drills to work to improve his mechanics. From what I understand it takes something like 10,000 reps for your body to learn something so it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

Mechanics will be a concern if he's not showing any signs of improvement. If he's in year 3 and still throwing high like he's currently doing it's a major issue. What I want to see (or hear about) is him be more and more mechanically solid as time goes on. He's going to have plays with sloppy mechanics as if you watch film on even the top tier QBs they have plays with sloppy mechanics and there is a reason why they still get coached up with their mechanics in the offseason 10+ years in the league.

I used to not like Grant Cohn much at all. He redeemed himself a bit over the past few years as he was clearly putting time and effort into possessing a deeper understanding of the game, actually watching film, etc. Still, I don't think he ever played the game, and certainly not at a high level. He's actually appeared to backslide a bit during the pandemic, though. I'm not a fan of a lot of his youtube stuff, where he appears to just be spending hours talking to Joe Normals about their perceptions of the Niners, the draft, etc.

I agree that one of the appeals of Cohn is that he definitely doesn't just toe the party line in terms of echoing what the team says without giving it a good, critical thought. Part of that is because he's contentious and arrogant, but as much as I like Maiocco and Barrows, I'd like to get some more critical stuff from them sometimes - not necessarily in terms of negatives, but just more incisive stuff.

In terms of Lance and his accuracy issues, there's a number of things going on here. First and foremost, the media has observed one practice in which Lance threw something like 24 passes total (at least outside of individual/position drills), and I think six in 11 on 11s (it may have even just been six drop-backs). So we're all talking and getting excited or worried about a tiny sample size from a guy who is still very young, is back in his first "live" action (to the extent we can call OTAs that) in almost a year, is digesting a very complicated offensive system, and acclimating to the speed of the NFL game. Drawing too many conclusions - drawing any conclusions, really - is a stretch at this point.

And in some ways, I'm sympathetic to a guy like Cohn, who is trying to create a week of content based on an hour of watching players and a few days of interviews. Hell, he had an article and video calling Jauan Jennings the surprise of OTAs, or something to that effect, based on literally a single route. It's the definition of knee-jerk reactions, but there's really nothing else to report on, so you run with what you've got, I guess.

Having said all of that, based on what I saw of his two pro days (all of one, maybe 7 or 8 passes of the other), Lance has not fixed his accuracy issues. He appears to have tightened up a lot of his mechanics, which will hopefully lead to less variance in his throws and thus more accuracy with greater repetitions (I think the 10,000 number you're referencing is the idea that you need to practice something 10,000 hours to become an expert, which is a Malcolm Gladwell idea; that would be mastering all the nuances of the QB position, a truly repetitive motion like throwing could presumably be mastered in less time, though longer for different ranges, types of throws, etc.). But he needed a lot of work, and it's at least a little concerning that Shanahan would give an answer which amounts to, "We're not working on his throwing motion with him."

I have tremendous respect for Shanahan as an offensive mind, but his track record with developing QBs isn't great, especially since joining the Niners. And he is arrogant and at times unyielding. As much as people breathed a sigh of relief and claimed he'd changed when he passed on Jones, taking Lance actually raises some Beathard-like red flags. A big part of what Shanahan liked about Beathard was that he came from an offense that had a lot of NFL concepts. The same is true of Lance relative to Fields and Jones (and Lawrence and Wilson, for that matter). I'm not comparing Lance and Beathard. Lance has much more physical talent, is probably smarter, and he's supposed to be just a dynamic, engaging personality. But the evaluation process raises some questions for me. And if Shanahan isn't committed to developing Lance's glaring weakness, it could prevent Lance from ever reaching the heights that would justify the trade/pick. Like it or not, he's going to be linked to Fields and Jones for his career, and we gave up a hell of a lot to get him specifically.

You are not going to get critical stuff from Maiocco. He has always been a reporter and not a commentator. For me, Maiocco is the person you turn to get an idea what is going on in the organization and what people inside are thinking. I think when Maiocco does put forward criticism of a player he is getting it from the organization and not a personal opinion.

[CrimsonCrew]

Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.

[Dodub]

Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.

Cohn didn’t have them on Lance for much of the process. He didn’t really have any idea on who they were taking and wavered multiple times. In fact, when they did draft Lance Cohn though that he led the charge with his followers of scaring them off of Jones last minute (as he’s said multiple times).

The only person that I saw who was 100% right about Lance and unwavering in their conviction was Middlekauff. He said from the beginning that Mac Jones makes no sense for the 49ers and the idea that the media knows who exactly who they are picking is absurd. They haven’t leaked big moves at all since Lynch came in.

[Dodub]

Grant Cohn can be hit or miss and I do like the fact he focuses more on the negative that beat writers tend to ignore so it gives you a more complete picture of what's happening. I do think he tends to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and some of his opinions can be pretty out there.

As far as Shanahan not working on Lance's mechanics I feel that's pretty standard in the NFL as guys usually get those worked on by personal coaches like Tom House and others like him. So I'm not particularly bothered by that as Lance is going to work on his mechanics and the coaches he works with give him drills to work to improve his mechanics. From what I understand it takes something like 10,000 reps for your body to learn something so it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

Mechanics will be a concern if he's not showing any signs of improvement. If he's in year 3 and still throwing high like he's currently doing it's a major issue. What I want to see (or hear about) is him be more and more mechanically solid as time goes on. He's going to have plays with sloppy mechanics as if you watch film on even the top tier QBs they have plays with sloppy mechanics and there is a reason why they still get coached up with their mechanics in the offseason 10+ years in the league.

I used to not like Grant Cohn much at all. He redeemed himself a bit over the past few years as he was clearly putting time and effort into possessing a deeper understanding of the game, actually watching film, etc. Still, I don't think he ever played the game, and certainly not at a high level. He's actually appeared to backslide a bit during the pandemic, though. I'm not a fan of a lot of his youtube stuff, where he appears to just be spending hours talking to Joe Normals about their perceptions of the Niners, the draft, etc.

I agree that one of the appeals of Cohn is that he definitely doesn't just toe the party line in terms of echoing what the team says without giving it a good, critical thought. Part of that is because he's contentious and arrogant, but as much as I like Maiocco and Barrows, I'd like to get some more critical stuff from them sometimes - not necessarily in terms of negatives, but just more incisive stuff.

In terms of Lance and his accuracy issues, there's a number of things going on here. First and foremost, the media has observed one practice in which Lance threw something like 24 passes total (at least outside of individual/position drills), and I think six in 11 on 11s (it may have even just been six drop-backs). So we're all talking and getting excited or worried about a tiny sample size from a guy who is still very young, is back in his first "live" action (to the extent we can call OTAs that) in almost a year, is digesting a very complicated offensive system, and acclimating to the speed of the NFL game. Drawing too many conclusions - drawing any conclusions, really - is a stretch at this point.

And in some ways, I'm sympathetic to a guy like Cohn, who is trying to create a week of content based on an hour of watching players and a few days of interviews. Hell, he had an article and video calling Jauan Jennings the surprise of OTAs, or something to that effect, based on literally a single route. It's the definition of knee-jerk reactions, but there's really nothing else to report on, so you run with what you've got, I guess.

Having said all of that, based on what I saw of his two pro days (all of one, maybe 7 or 8 passes of the other), Lance has not fixed his accuracy issues. He appears to have tightened up a lot of his mechanics, which will hopefully lead to less variance in his throws and thus more accuracy with greater repetitions (I think the 10,000 number you're referencing is the idea that you need to practice something 10,000 hours to become an expert, which is a Malcolm Gladwell idea; that would be mastering all the nuances of the QB position, a truly repetitive motion like throwing could presumably be mastered in less time, though longer for different ranges, types of throws, etc.). But he needed a lot of work, and it's at least a little concerning that Shanahan would give an answer which amounts to, "We're not working on his throwing motion with him."

I have tremendous respect for Shanahan as an offensive mind, but his track record with developing QBs isn't great, especially since joining the Niners. And he is arrogant and at times unyielding. As much as people breathed a sigh of relief and claimed he'd changed when he passed on Jones, taking Lance actually raises some Beathard-like red flags. A big part of what Shanahan liked about Beathard was that he came from an offense that had a lot of NFL concepts. The same is true of Lance relative to Fields and Jones (and Lawrence and Wilson, for that matter). I'm not comparing Lance and Beathard. Lance has much more physical talent, is probably smarter, and he's supposed to be just a dynamic, engaging personality. But the evaluation process raises some questions for me. And if Shanahan isn't committed to developing Lance's glaring weakness, it could prevent Lance from ever reaching the heights that would justify the trade/pick. Like it or not, he's going to be linked to Fields and Jones for his career, and we gave up a hell of a lot to get him specifically.

You are not going to get critical stuff from Maiocco. He has always been a reporter and not a commentator. For me, Maiocco is the person you turn to get an idea what is going on in the organization and what people inside are thinking. I think when Maiocco does put forward criticism of a player he is getting it from the organization and not a personal opinion.

Isn't that what you want from the news though? When I watch news I’m only looking for the facts. I can form my own opinions and certainly don’t want to hear opinions from folks who lack credibility like Cohn, who believed that Rosen should be our starting QB this season.

[clyde21]

Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.

Cohn didn’t have them on Lance for much of the process. He didn’t really have any idea on who they were taking and wavered multiple times. In fact, when they did draft Lance Cohn though that he led the charge with his followers of scaring them off of Jones last minute (as he’s said multiple times).

The only person that I saw who was 100% right about Lance and unwavering in their conviction was Middlekauff. He said from the beginning that Mac Jones makes no sense for the 49ers and the idea that the media knows who exactly who they are picking is absurd. They haven’t leaked big moves at all since Lynch came in.

Cohn was just hedging b/c he never wanted Lance, doubt that prediction came from anything he knew or a place of knowledge