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The Trey Lance thread

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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#141 » by CrimsonCrew » Tue Jun 1, 2021 9:28 pm

Dodub wrote:
Pattersonca65 wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:
I used to not like Grant Cohn much at all. He redeemed himself a bit over the past few years as he was clearly putting time and effort into possessing a deeper understanding of the game, actually watching film, etc. Still, I don't think he ever played the game, and certainly not at a high level. He's actually appeared to backslide a bit during the pandemic, though. I'm not a fan of a lot of his youtube stuff, where he appears to just be spending hours talking to Joe Normals about their perceptions of the Niners, the draft, etc.

I agree that one of the appeals of Cohn is that he definitely doesn't just toe the party line in terms of echoing what the team says without giving it a good, critical thought. Part of that is because he's contentious and arrogant, but as much as I like Maiocco and Barrows, I'd like to get some more critical stuff from them sometimes - not necessarily in terms of negatives, but just more incisive stuff.

In terms of Lance and his accuracy issues, there's a number of things going on here. First and foremost, the media has observed one practice in which Lance threw something like 24 passes total (at least outside of individual/position drills), and I think six in 11 on 11s (it may have even just been six drop-backs). So we're all talking and getting excited or worried about a tiny sample size from a guy who is still very young, is back in his first "live" action (to the extent we can call OTAs that) in almost a year, is digesting a very complicated offensive system, and acclimating to the speed of the NFL game. Drawing too many conclusions - drawing any conclusions, really - is a stretch at this point.

And in some ways, I'm sympathetic to a guy like Cohn, who is trying to create a week of content based on an hour of watching players and a few days of interviews. Hell, he had an article and video calling Jauan Jennings the surprise of OTAs, or something to that effect, based on literally a single route. It's the definition of knee-jerk reactions, but there's really nothing else to report on, so you run with what you've got, I guess.

Having said all of that, based on what I saw of his two pro days (all of one, maybe 7 or 8 passes of the other), Lance has not fixed his accuracy issues. He appears to have tightened up a lot of his mechanics, which will hopefully lead to less variance in his throws and thus more accuracy with greater repetitions (I think the 10,000 number you're referencing is the idea that you need to practice something 10,000 hours to become an expert, which is a Malcolm Gladwell idea; that would be mastering all the nuances of the QB position, a truly repetitive motion like throwing could presumably be mastered in less time, though longer for different ranges, types of throws, etc.). But he needed a lot of work, and it's at least a little concerning that Shanahan would give an answer which amounts to, "We're not working on his throwing motion with him."

I have tremendous respect for Shanahan as an offensive mind, but his track record with developing QBs isn't great, especially since joining the Niners. And he is arrogant and at times unyielding. As much as people breathed a sigh of relief and claimed he'd changed when he passed on Jones, taking Lance actually raises some Beathard-like red flags. A big part of what Shanahan liked about Beathard was that he came from an offense that had a lot of NFL concepts. The same is true of Lance relative to Fields and Jones (and Lawrence and Wilson, for that matter). I'm not comparing Lance and Beathard. Lance has much more physical talent, is probably smarter, and he's supposed to be just a dynamic, engaging personality. But the evaluation process raises some questions for me. And if Shanahan isn't committed to developing Lance's glaring weakness, it could prevent Lance from ever reaching the heights that would justify the trade/pick. Like it or not, he's going to be linked to Fields and Jones for his career, and we gave up a hell of a lot to get him specifically.


You are not going to get critical stuff from Maiocco. He has always been a reporter and not a commentator. For me, Maiocco is the person you turn to get an idea what is going on in the organization and what people inside are thinking. I think when Maiocco does put forward criticism of a player he is getting it from the organization and not a personal opinion.


Isn't that what you want from the news though? When I watch news I’m only looking for the facts. I can form my own opinions and certainly don’t want to hear opinions from folks who lack credibility like Cohn, who believed that Rosen should be our starting QB this season.


But what if he expresses those thoughts in a very uncomfortable (for the viewer, anyway) Brooklyn-Jewish accent?

On a serious note, though, I want at least some sports reporters to do more than just relate facts. I'm all about accurate, well-sourced reporting on the team, but I also want some opinions on how these guys look when I can't see them. I see the team for an hour of game time 16 times a year (plus some preseason and maybe playoffs). I like hearing who is looking good when I can't be there to see for myself. You just have to take those reports with a grain of salt.

For instance, hearing Maiocco report that Lance went 20 of 24, or whatever he was, is one thing. But I think it's helpful to have Cohn weigh in that when he missed, he was missing high. It adds something to the picture of the practice. It's one thing to say a guy caught X number of balls, and another to describe that he was moving well, showed wiggle, was getting open out of his breaks, had explosiveness after the catch, etc.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#142 » by CrimsonCrew » Tue Jun 1, 2021 9:33 pm

Dodub wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.


Cohn didn’t have them on Lance for much of the process. He didn’t really have any idea on who they were taking and wavered multiple times. In fact, when they did draft Lance Cohn though that he led the charge with his followers of scaring them off of Jones last minute (as he’s said multiple times).

The only person that I saw who was 100% right about Lance and unwavering in their conviction was Middlekauff. He said from the beginning that Mac Jones makes no sense for the 49ers and the idea that the media knows who exactly who they are picking is absurd. They haven’t leaked big moves at all since Lynch came in.


I always confuse Middlekauff and Haberman, at least in terms of which of them said what. One of them thought it was going to be Fields, at least the week before the draft. That might have been Haberman, though. But they both felt the Jones hype was completely overblown and that he was unlikely to be the pick.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#143 » by CrimsonCrew » Tue Jun 1, 2021 9:34 pm

Re: Cohn on this issue, he puts so much stuff out there these days that it's impossible to consume it all. What I saw/heard close to the draft, though, he seemed pretty firm on Lance.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#144 » by Dodub » Wed Jun 2, 2021 2:02 am

CrimsonCrew wrote:
Dodub wrote:
Pattersonca65 wrote:
You are not going to get critical stuff from Maiocco. He has always been a reporter and not a commentator. For me, Maiocco is the person you turn to get an idea what is going on in the organization and what people inside are thinking. I think when Maiocco does put forward criticism of a player he is getting it from the organization and not a personal opinion.


Isn't that what you want from the news though? When I watch news I’m only looking for the facts. I can form my own opinions and certainly don’t want to hear opinions from folks who lack credibility like Cohn, who believed that Rosen should be our starting QB this season.


But what if he expresses those thoughts in a very uncomfortable (for the viewer, anyway) Brooklyn-Jewish accent?

On a serious note, though, I want at least some sports reporters to do more than just relate facts. I'm all about accurate, well-sourced reporting on the team, but I also want some opinions on how these guys look when I can't see them. I see the team for an hour of game time 16 times a year (plus some preseason and maybe playoffs). I like hearing who is looking good when I can't be there to see for myself. You just have to take those reports with a grain of salt.

For instance, hearing Maiocco report that Lance went 20 of 24, or whatever he was, is one thing. But I think it's helpful to have Cohn weigh in that when he missed, he was missing high. It adds something to the picture of the practice. It's one thing to say a guy caught X number of balls, and another to describe that he was moving well, showed wiggle, was getting open out of his breaks, had explosiveness after the catch, etc.


Lol I laughed out loud at that one, well done.

I got tired of opinionated reporting, that’s why I stopped watching ESPN. They’ve converted almost 100% to opinion based shows when sometimes I just want the news.

That’s kind of the issue with CNN, Fox, etc too in my opinion.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#145 » by Dodub » Wed Jun 2, 2021 2:04 am

CrimsonCrew wrote:
Dodub wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.


Cohn didn’t have them on Lance for much of the process. He didn’t really have any idea on who they were taking and wavered multiple times. In fact, when they did draft Lance Cohn though that he led the charge with his followers of scaring them off of Jones last minute (as he’s said multiple times).

The only person that I saw who was 100% right about Lance and unwavering in their conviction was Middlekauff. He said from the beginning that Mac Jones makes no sense for the 49ers and the idea that the media knows who exactly who they are picking is absurd. They haven’t leaked big moves at all since Lynch came in.


I always confuse Middlekauff and Haberman, at least in terms of which of them said what. One of them thought it was going to be Fields, at least the week before the draft. That might have been Haberman, though. But they both felt the Jones hype was completely overblown and that he was unlikely to be the pick.


I actually really like those guys. I feel like Middlekauff is too much of an a-type and steamrolls Haberman at times. They both are very knowledgeable and have good insight though.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#146 » by Scoots1994 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 12:26 pm

One trick of the negative type of sports writer is that they can make 100 negative predictions and be sure some of them will be right and they quietly ignore all the ones that were wrong and can explain them away by blaming other factors.

The thing is Grant isn't even good at that. At least he doesn't talk about his dad as much as he used to.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#147 » by CrimsonCrew » Wed Jun 2, 2021 5:38 pm

Dodub wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:
Dodub wrote:
Cohn didn’t have them on Lance for much of the process. He didn’t really have any idea on who they were taking and wavered multiple times. In fact, when they did draft Lance Cohn though that he led the charge with his followers of scaring them off of Jones last minute (as he’s said multiple times).

The only person that I saw who was 100% right about Lance and unwavering in their conviction was Middlekauff. He said from the beginning that Mac Jones makes no sense for the 49ers and the idea that the media knows who exactly who they are picking is absurd. They haven’t leaked big moves at all since Lynch came in.


I always confuse Middlekauff and Haberman, at least in terms of which of them said what. One of them thought it was going to be Fields, at least the week before the draft. That might have been Haberman, though. But they both felt the Jones hype was completely overblown and that he was unlikely to be the pick.


I actually really like those guys. I feel like Middlekauff is too much of an a-type and steamrolls Haberman at times. They both are very knowledgeable and have good insight though.


Yeah, I came across their podcast during draft season and have listened to at least portions of it pretty consistently since. I listened to Middlekauff back when he was on one of the local sports radio stations (can't recall if it was KNBR or 95.7), and always liked his perspective.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#148 » by CrimsonCrew » Thu Jun 3, 2021 5:11 am

For what it's worth, Cohn positively gushed about Lance today.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#149 » by CrimsonCrew » Thu Jun 3, 2021 5:25 pm

Haberman and Middlekauff also went to OTAs. Their thoughts on Lance here:



There's a much longer video/podcast episode of them discussing all topics, but I'm not going to post that here.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#150 » by Pattersonca65 » Thu Jun 3, 2021 7:57 pm

CrimsonCrew wrote:Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.


I think Maiocco might be afraid of giving opinions thinking he might tick someone off in the FO and lose his contacts.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#151 » by CrimsonCrew » Thu Jun 3, 2021 8:26 pm

Pattersonca65 wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.


I think Maiocco might be afraid of giving opinions thinking he might tick someone off in the FO and lose his contacts.


Agreed. I understand why they do it, but that's part of why I like having a more contentious, critical guy.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#152 » by Pattersonca65 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 6:03 am

CrimsonCrew wrote:
Pattersonca65 wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:Agreed re: Maiocco. And he's great at it, but I do like hearing guys called out a little more, having coaches have to confront more challenging questions at press conferences, etc.

And I will say, as much as I think Maiocco and Barrows do a great job, they both had the Niners taking Jones (Barrows might have changed that at the last minute, but I don't think he did) while Cohn had them on Lance.


I think Maiocco might be afraid of giving opinions thinking he might tick someone off in the FO and lose his contacts.


Agreed. I understand why they do it, but that's part of why I like having a more contentious, critical guy.

Lol, likr Kawakami? I actually went to.high school with him
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#153 » by Jikkle » Fri Jun 4, 2021 9:15 am

It's too bad they don't give the media more access to OTAs so we could have a better feel about where Lance is really at.

I'm encouraged that he's having those "WOW" plays in practice. He may not be ready to start week 1 but you at least want him to flash his potential and show off that talent that made him the #3 overall pick.

The one consistent thing that I've noticed is QBs that end up being great in the league most of them showed off early in the offseason as rookies their talent and players knew it was different right off the bat.

I still hold to my belief that Lance is capable of starting week 1 but Jimmy might be the better option as a starter at the time and he should be the starter if that's the case.

We really won't know until training camp though and we'll see where Lance is at during the preseason which might be the most exciting preseason for as long as I can remember.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#154 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 2:12 pm

Pattersonca65 wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:
Pattersonca65 wrote:
I think Maiocco might be afraid of giving opinions thinking he might tick someone off in the FO and lose his contacts.


Agreed. I understand why they do it, but that's part of why I like having a more contentious, critical guy.

Lol, likr Kawakami? I actually went to.high school with him


I spent a while with Kawakami when I worked for the Mercury News. He's a good guy, and he's the best kind of attacking sports reporter because he actually has a basis for his issues rather than just making a hot take just for the clicks.

That said I don't particularly like that kind of sports reporting.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#155 » by CrimsonCrew » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:37 pm

It's a fine line between critical "journalist" and a-hole. I'm not sure Kawakami always stays on the right side of it, and I know Grant Cohn doesn't. Still, I like getting some input that isn't basically the party line, and I like that Grant tends to go into more detail in his practice reports, even if you have to watch out for some confirmation bias.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#156 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 8:53 pm

Kawakami is tenacious in pursuit of a story but I don't think he's so much an a-hole.

My favorite moment was a time he was physically threatened in a Raiders press conference and he said "go ahead, I'd love to be part owner of the Raiders".
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#157 » by Jikkle » Sat Jun 5, 2021 2:35 am



Interview with one of Lance's QB coaches. Fortunately it's time stamped so it's easy to skip to the more interesting topics.

14:40 is where they talk about his high passes which is the most interesting topic they talked about.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#158 » by Pattersonca65 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 4:11 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
Pattersonca65 wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:
Agreed. I understand why they do it, but that's part of why I like having a more contentious, critical guy.

Lol, likr Kawakami? I actually went to.high school with him


I spent a while with Kawakami when I worked for the Mercury News. He's a good guy, and he's the best kind of attacking sports reporter because he actually has a basis for his issues rather than just making a hot take just for the clicks.

That said I don't particularly like that kind of sports reporting.


For a media guy, he was practically invisible in high school.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#159 » by Pattersonca65 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 4:13 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
Pattersonca65 wrote:
CrimsonCrew wrote:
Agreed. I understand why they do it, but that's part of why I like having a more contentious, critical guy.

Lol, likr Kawakami? I actually went to.high school with him


I spent a while with Kawakami when I worked for the Mercury News. He's a good guy, and he's the best kind of attacking sports reporter because he actually has a basis for his issues rather than just making a hot take just for the clicks.

That said I don't particularly like that kind of sports reporting.


I think Kawakami went too far he took shots at Maiocco and other reporters. And he got the Gase story wrong and couldn't admit it.
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Re: The Trey Lance thread 

Post#160 » by Pattersonca65 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 4:14 pm

Jikkle wrote:It's too bad they don't give the media more access to OTAs so we could have a better feel about where Lance is really at.

I'm encouraged that he's having those "WOW" plays in practice. He may not be ready to start week 1 but you at least want him to flash his potential and show off that talent that made him the #3 overall pick.

The one consistent thing that I've noticed is QBs that end up being great in the league most of them showed off early in the offseason as rookies their talent and players knew it was different right off the bat.

I still hold to my belief that Lance is capable of starting week 1 but Jimmy might be the better option as a starter at the time and he should be the starter if that's the case.

We really won't know until training camp though and we'll see where Lance is at during the preseason which might be the most exciting preseason for as long as I can remember.


IDK. Too much hype from OTAs. Over the years we get glowing reports about players we never from again once the season starts.

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