GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

[MrSparkle]

Good grief. Really? We're hoping Pat is half as good as Deng ever was?

Have a wee bit of optimism. His raw ability to dribble and shoot in traffic is already better than Lu's career peak.

[WindyCityBorn]

Good grief. Really? We're hoping Pat is half as good as Deng ever was?

Have a wee bit of optimism. His raw ability to dribble and shoot in traffic is already better than Lu's career peak.

And he can already shoot 3s. No knock on Lu as he had a fine career, but I think Williams can be better.

[GoBlue72391]

Good grief. Really? We're hoping Pat is half as good as Deng ever was?

Have a wee bit of optimism. His raw ability to dribble and shoot in traffic is already better than Lu's career peak.

I think you're selling Deng short. He was a really good two-way player and likely would have been even better if he played in today's game as a small ball 4 with more 3 point attempts and a lot less long 2s. If PWill becomes half the player Deng was then we got ourselves a very nice role player, which wouldn't be terrible for a 4th pick in a weak draft. That's like what, a Trevor Ariza type player? I definitely think he has the potential be better than half as good as Deng, but that's not a bad floor.

As pedestrian of a ballhandler as Deng was, I haven't seen anything out of PWill up to this point that makes me believe he's significantly better in that aspect. What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls. Obviously he can improve and it's not something he was asked to do a lot as a rookie, but he's hardly a ball handling prodigy. I'd say he's about even with Deng in terms of ball handling when he was the same age. Maybe slightly in favor of PWill. Same for the shooting in traffic claim. The majority of PWill's shots this season were catch and shoot 3s, pull up mids (which Deng excelled at early on), and stop and pop floaters/1 handed push shots. We haven't really seen a ton of shooting in traffic from him yet, so it's really a stretch to say he's already better than Deng was at his peak.

I think a lot of the takes on PWill are future projections, expectations, and hopes being passed off as truths.

[GoBlue72391]

Good grief. Really? We're hoping Pat is half as good as Deng ever was?

Have a wee bit of optimism. His raw ability to dribble and shoot in traffic is already better than Lu's career peak.

And he can already shoot 3s. No knock on Lu as he had a fine career, but I think Williams can be better.

He definitely can be better, but that doesn't mean Deng isn't a good comp for him.

[GoBlue72391]

Deng was never really a plus athlete. He had great size and length for his position though. Most of the stuff you are saying about Deng has nothing to with raw athleticism. I’m not saying Williams is comparable player at the same stage.

I remember Deng being pretty athletic earlier in his career when he was thinner and more lanky. It was mid-career and onward where he was the very definition of an average NBA athlete when his build became more sturdy at the cost of his athleticism. PWill is a better run-jump athlete than Deng was, but he lacks Deng's lateral quickness.

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Deng always looked stiff to me.

That's a good way to describe him and he definitely was for the majority of his career, but his first three years or so he was pretty athletic and less stiff.

[CobyWhite0]

Just a few observations:

Mr Patrick Williams shot .443 on shots from 10-16 feet this season. That's better than any year of Lu's career.

Mr Patrick Williams shot .411 on shots from 16ft-3pt line this season. That's better than all but 2 years of Lu's career.

Mr Patrick Williams shot .391 on 3's this season on 138 attempts. Deng beat that one year - when he attempted TWENTY 3's the entire season.

"What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls."

Mr Patrick Williams had 31 turnovers all year where he lost the ball. Roughly once every 2.3 games, so he obviously didn't "lose the ball on routine dribbles" very often. He had 32 bad pass turovers and committed 14 offensive fouls.

[Dez]

I cringe every time you call him Mr Patrick Williams, it's weird and creepy.

[PaKii94]

Just a few observations:

Mr Patrick Williams shot .443 on shots from 10-16 feet this season. That's better than any year of Lu's career.

Mr Patrick Williams shot .411 on shots from 16ft-3pt line this season. That's better than all but 2 years of Lu's career.

How does the volume compare?


"

What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls."

Mr Patrick Williams had 31 turnovers all year where he lost the ball. Roughly once every 2.3 games, so he obviously didn't "lose the ball on routine dribbles" very often. He had 32 bad pass turovers and committed 14 offensive fouls.

He kinda does. This is where you have to factor in usage. It would be another thing if he was handling the ball all game and only committed one TO every 2.3 games.

[WindyCityBorn]

Just a few observations:

Mr Patrick Williams shot .443 on shots from 10-16 feet this season. That's better than any year of Lu's career.

Mr Patrick Williams shot .411 on shots from 16ft-3pt line this season. That's better than all but 2 years of Lu's career.

How does the volume compare?


"

What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls."

Mr Patrick Williams had 31 turnovers all year where he lost the ball. Roughly once every 2.3 games, so he obviously didn't "lose the ball on routine dribbles" very often. He had 32 bad pass turovers and committed 14 offensive fouls.

He kinda does. This is where you have to factor in usage. It would be another thing if he was handling the ball all game and only committed one TO every 2.3 games.

Deng could barely dribble. That is the main thing that kept him from being a much better than offensive player than he was.

[GoBlue72391]

Just a few observations:

Mr Patrick Williams shot .443 on shots from 10-16 feet this season. That's better than any year of Lu's career.

Mr Patrick Williams shot .411 on shots from 16ft-3pt line this season. That's better than all but 2 years of Lu's career.

How does the volume compare?

He always ignores volume and other aspects that add context to the discussion. He does it on purpose to further his agenda. And to answer your question, not well.

Comparison of their rookie years

At the rim attempts

PWill:103/153 67%
Deng: 145/227 64%

3-10 feet

PWill: 37/94 39%
Deng: 17/51 33%

10-16 feet

PWill: 31/70 44%
Deng: 18/75 24%

16 feet up to the 3 point line

PWill: 30/73 41%
Deng: 69/175 39%

PWill is better from the in-between game, Deng is better on long 2s and finishing at the rim (as rookies.)

What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls."

Mr Patrick Williams had 31 turnovers all year where he lost the ball. Roughly once every 2.3 games, so he obviously didn't "lose the ball on routine dribbles" very often. He had 32 bad pass turovers and committed 14 offensive fouls.

"Obviously he can improve and it's not something he was asked to do a lot as a rookie" Why are you talking about bad passes and offensive fouls when I was clearly talking about his ball hnadling? He had 60 ball handling turnovers according to 82games.com. In comparison, Deng only had 54 as a rookie despite a much higher usage rate (14.9% for PWill, 22.4% for Deng as a rookie.)

[CobyWhite0]

I cringe every time you call him Mr Patrick Williams, it's weird and creepy.

It's also a pain in the arse to type it out every time I mention him - but it all started a few months back when people were complaining about having "the Paw" as his nickname. But what choice do I have?

I can't call him Pat, that just makes me think of the SNL character - who doesn't seem like a very good basketball player. Besides, Pat the SNL character is almost as whiny as Luka, so no thanks.

Patrick? Then I have to figure out who on the team is Sponge Bob. Though at least we already know who Mr Krabs is.

PW? Can't do it, I spent a good portion of my life making sure I never became PW'd.

PWill? Too similar to JayWill, and as we all know, JayDidn't.

I am certainly open to suggestions. I'm thinking of just going with Mr Williams, as an homage to Sidney Poitier

[GoBlue72391]

Just a few observations:

Mr Patrick Williams shot .443 on shots from 10-16 feet this season. That's better than any year of Lu's career.

Mr Patrick Williams shot .411 on shots from 16ft-3pt line this season. That's better than all but 2 years of Lu's career.

How does the volume compare?


"

What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls."

Mr Patrick Williams had 31 turnovers all year where he lost the ball. Roughly once every 2.3 games, so he obviously didn't "lose the ball on routine dribbles" very often. He had 32 bad pass turovers and committed 14 offensive fouls.

He kinda does. This is where you have to factor in usage. It would be another thing if he was handling the ball all game and only committed one TO every 2.3 games.

Deng could barely dribble. That is the main thing that kept him from being a much better than offensive player than he was.

One guy could "barely dribble" and the other guy has people calling for him to run point forward. If that's true, how can one explain away the fact that PWill had 60 ball handling turnovers on a 14.9% usage rate as a rookie while Deng only had 54 on a 22.4% usage rate as a rookie? And it's fair to say that the defense Deng faced as rookie in 2004-05 was better than the defense PWill faced as a rookie this year.

[GoBlue72391]

I cringe every time you call him Mr Patrick Williams, it's weird and creepy.

It's also a pain in the arse to type it out every time I mention him - but it all started a few months back when people were complaining about having "the Paw" as his nickname. But what choice do I have?

I can't call him Pat, that just makes me think of the SNL character - who doesn't seem like a very good basketball player. Besides, Pat the SNL character is almost as whiny as Luka, so no thanks.

Patrick? Then I have to figure out who on the team is Sponge Bob. Though at least we already know who Mr Krabs is.

PW? Can't do it, I spent a good portion of my life making sure I never became PW'd.

PWill? Too similar to JayWill, and as we all know, JayDidn't.

I am certainly open to suggestions. I'm thinking of just going with Mr Williams, as an homage to Sidney Poitier

It comes off as a ripoff of Duck's "Patrick Lee Williams" which is equally cringey, but he was doing it first.

[CobyWhite0]

"Obviously he can improve and it's not something he was asked to do a lot as a rookie" Why are you talking about bad passes and offensive fouls when I was clearly talking about his ball hnadling? He had 60 ball handling turnovers according to 82games.com. In comparison, Deng only had 54 as a rookie despite a much higher usage rate (14.9% for PWill, 22.4% for Deng as a rookie.)

I generally don't bother with folks who can't understand how stats work, but let me just point out that 82games.com includes traveling violations and stepping out of bounds in their "ball handling turnovers".

He had 98 total turnovers on the season:

82games had him with:

14 offensive fouls
24 bad passes
60 ball-handling
0 other turnovers

That adds up to 98. So unless we watched different games, and he got called for traveling ZERO times all season, and he stepped out of bounds ZERO times all season, those traveling violations and stepping out of bounds violations are included in "ball-handling turnovers".

What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls.

I say it again since I proved it, he lost the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls 31 times all season. Not 60.

This is why I sometimes don't bother posting "advanced" stats, because so many people are clueless as to how to comprehend them.

That's obviously 100% true in this case.

[WindyCityBorn]

How does the volume compare?


"

He kinda does. This is where you have to factor in usage. It would be another thing if he was handling the ball all game and only committed one TO every 2.3 games.

Deng could barely dribble. That is the main thing that kept him from being a much better than offensive player than he was.

One guy could "barely dribble" and the other guy has people calling for him to run point forward. If that's true, how can one explain away the fact that PWill had 60 ball handling turnovers on a 14.9% usage rate as a rookie while Deng only had 54 on a 22.4% usage rate as a rookie? And it's fair to say that the defense Deng faced as rookie in 2004-05 was better than the defense PWill faced as a rookie this year.

Deng could barely dribble without looking at the ball. Noah had to become an offensive hub because Deng was so limited. When you don’t try to create you don’t turn the ball over as much. I have never said Williams could be a point forward.

[GoBlue72391]

"Obviously he can improve and it's not something he was asked to do a lot as a rookie" Why are you talking about bad passes and offensive fouls when I was clearly talking about his ball hnadling? He had 60 ball handling turnovers according to 82games.com. In comparison, Deng only had 54 as a rookie despite a much higher usage rate (14.9% for PWill, 22.4% for Deng as a rookie.)

I generally don't bother with folks who can't understand how stats work, but let me just point out that 82games.com includes traveling violations and stepping out of bounds in their "ball handling turnovers".

He had 98 total turnovers on the season:

82games had him with:

14 offensive fouls
24 bad passes
60 ball-handling
0 other turnovers

That adds up to 98. So unless we watched different games, and he got called for traveling ZERO times all season, and he stepped out of bounds ZERO times all season, those traveling violations and stepping out of bounds violations are included in "ball-handling turnovers".

What sticks out to me is PWill losing the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls.

I say it again since I proved it, he lost the ball on routine dribbles and basic pick and rolls 31 times all season. Not 60.

This is why I sometimes don't bother posting "advanced" stats, because so many people are clueless as to how to comprehend them.

That's obviously 100% true in this case.

Please sir, tell me once more how Adam Mokoka, Devon Dotson, and Cristiano Felicio are all better finishers than Lauri with their whopping 24 attempts at the rim combined. I am in dire need of further education on this topic and clearly you're the only one who posses the basketball knowledge and mental acuity to teach me. Please sir, I beg of you.

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[GoBlue72391]

Deng could barely dribble. That is the main thing that kept him from being a much better than offensive player than he was.

One guy could "barely dribble" and the other guy has people calling for him to run point forward. If that's true, how can one explain away the fact that PWill had 60 ball handling turnovers on a 14.9% usage rate as a rookie while Deng only had 54 on a 22.4% usage rate as a rookie? And it's fair to say that the defense Deng faced as rookie in 2004-05 was better than the defense PWill faced as a rookie this year.

Deng could barely dribble without looking at the ball. When you don’t try to create you don’t turn the ball over as much. I have never said Williams could be point forward.

That's so hyperbolic it's honestly not worth a response.

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[DuckIII]

As arguably the biggest Luol Deng fan on the board, and someone who believes in Williams, I’d like to briefly address some of this:

1. Williams has already showed not better, but drastically better, ball handling skills than peak Luol Deng. One of the amazing things about Luol is that he was able to have such an impressive career as a perimeter player despite having a virtually non-existent handle.

2. Similarly, Williams physical profile combination of size, strength, vert, second jump and speed is significantly superior to Deng’s. I wish they had done all the pre-draft measurables because my guess would be that Williams’ would be well ahead of Deng’s in 100% of the categories.

3. The thing, though, is that Deng’s extremely high intellect, court awareness and work ethic were all absolutely elite by NBA standards. If you did a deep dive video into Deng’s awareness and ability to read the game defensively and without the ball, and compared it to that of Williams, they would be nothing alike. Deng’s video would be a clinic, Williams would be, um, an instructional video in what not to do.

In many ways, so far anyway, Deng and Williams are pretty much complete opposites of one another. It is a bizarre comp.

[DuckIII]

One guy could "barely dribble" and the other guy has people calling for him to run point forward. If that's true, how can one explain away the fact that PWill had 60 ball handling turnovers on a 14.9% usage rate as a rookie while Deng only had 54 on a 22.4% usage rate as a rookie? And it's fair to say that the defense Deng faced as rookie in 2004-05 was better than the defense PWill faced as a rookie this year.

Deng could barely dribble without looking at the ball. When you don’t try to create you don’t turn the ball over as much. I have never said Williams could be point forward.

That's so hyperbolic it's honestly not worth a response.

It’s not hyperbolic at all. It’s pretty much spot on. And Deng is my second favorite Bulls player of all time and I think they should retire his number.

[CobyWhite0]

Deng could barely dribble without looking at the ball. When you don’t try to create you don’t turn the ball over as much. I have never said Williams could be point forward.

That's so hyperbolic it's honestly not worth a response.

It’s not hyperbolic at all. It’s pretty much spot on. And Deng is my second favorite Bulls player of all time and I think they should retire his number.

You can't fault people who either don't watch the games or have no clue what they're watching.

And I'm a HUGE Lu fan, I thought he could be an All-NBA player if he would have just shot 3's instaed of launching so many 21-foot jumpers. And if he had any ability at all to create off the dribble.