2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[Fadeaway_J]

Seriously - I know this wasn't purely a basketball decision, but Kawhi should have stayed in Toronto.

[Peregrine01]

Kawhi's head got too big after winning in '19. He's quiet so it doesn't get talked about much.

[Doctor MJ]

Kawhi's head got too big after winning in '19. He's quiet so it doesn't get talked about much.

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

[RSCD3_]

Kawhi's head got too big after winning in '19. He's quiet so it doesn't get talked about much.

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

In this series it's odd because I can't even really say him or George are playing bad it's just Dallas has performed better offensively, and some of the clippers big gets just haven't provided expected impact. While they could definitely use a kyle lowry to help them diversify their late game attack. I can't really call Kawhi a fool for expecting the clippers to be good, yet I also can't say he's the reason why he can't get it done. Honestly it's a weird situation. The clippers could lose tommorrow, or they could win in 7 beat the suns, then beat the Jazz/Nuggets Victor, and finally whoever comes out of the East. A lot depends on their shooting

[Dutchball97]

Kawhi's head got too big after winning in '19. He's quiet so it doesn't get talked about much.

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

In this series it's odd because I can't even really say him or George are playing bad it's just Dallas has performed better offensively, and some of the clippers big gets just haven't provided expected impact. While they could definitely use a kyle lowry to help them diversify their late game attack. I can't really call Kawhi a fool for expecting the clippers to be good, yet I also can't say he's the reason why he can't get it done. Honestly it's a weird situation. The clippers could lose tommorrow, or they could win in 7 beat the suns, then beat the Jazz/Nuggets Victor, and finally whoever comes out of the East. A lot depends on their shooting

Clippers are the 4 seed so if they go through they'd face the Jazz in the second round and Suns/Nuggets/Blazers/Lakers in the WCF.

[RSCD3_]

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

In this series it's odd because I can't even really say him or George are playing bad it's just Dallas has performed better offensively, and some of the clippers big gets just haven't provided expected impact. While they could definitely use a kyle lowry to help them diversify their late game attack. I can't really call Kawhi a fool for expecting the clippers to be good, yet I also can't say he's the reason why he can't get it done. Honestly it's a weird situation. The clippers could lose tommorrow, or they could win in 7 beat the suns, then beat the Jazz/Nuggets Victor, and finally whoever comes out of the East. A lot depends on their shooting

Clippers are the 4 seed so if they go through they'd face the Jazz in the second round and Suns/Nuggets/Blazers/Lakers in the WCF.

AH, right you are, I keep getting the 3-6 and 4-5 flipped

[Texas Chuck]

Far from over. And Dallas was the team that nearly choked this away, not the Clippers.

Nah, the game was headed towards a choke early on when the Clippers were down 7-0 and started pressing and playing mentally tight. Then they completely unraveled at the end of the third quarter and that was all she wrote.

—No, my team is worse!
—No, MY team is worse!! I insist!
—WE are gonna choke this series!!
—NO, WE WILL!

You have me all wrong here. I think the Mavs played great last night. But they were up 10 with a little over a minute left and the Clippers were shooting a layup to win the game. That's almost choking. What the Clippers did was get outcoached and outcompeted, not choke.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not understanding all the Kawhi hate. He's been great all series until last night when Rick went jumbo lineup and played zone to keep him from just straight lining the rim. And after 10 playoff games of him trucking Maxi Kleber when they went man he gave Dorian a shot at him and Dorian played the defensive game of his life. Sometimes we got to credit the other team.

[Fadeaway_J]

I'm not understanding all the Kawhi hate. He's been great all series until last night when Rick went jumbo lineup and played zone to keep him from just straight lining the rim. And after 10 playoff games of him trucking Maxi Kleber when they went man he gave Dorian a shot at him and Dorian played the defensive game of his life. Sometimes we got to credit the other team.

You just answered your question with this bolded part. People seem to struggle with doing that...

[dontcalltimeout]

Read on Twitter

[parsnips33]

That Terrance Mann play at the end was so 20-21 Warriors it left a bad taste in my mouth

[MartinToVaught]

LOL, Game 7 (if it even happens) will be a 12:30 game. Just end the season already, this is a nightmare.

[Texas Chuck]

That Terrance Mann play at the end was so 20-21 Warriors it left a bad taste in my mouth

IDK when you attack the rim and Luka Gobert Doncic is waiting on you, sometimes you panic.

[Peregrine01]

Kawhi's head got too big after winning in '19. He's quiet so it doesn't get talked about much.

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

I think the way he was dictating his terms to the Clippers said a lot. He basically told them that he'd come but that they weren't good enough and needed to get PG to get him to come. Then he made the Lakers wait until the last second and didn't let them know that he was never intending to join anyway. And then the massive marketing about him being the new king of LA. It was a massive amount of hubris that followed his 19 run.

[Doctor MJ]

Kawhi's head got too big after winning in '19. He's quiet so it doesn't get talked about much.

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

In this series it's odd because I can't even really say him or George are playing bad it's just Dallas has performed better offensively, and some of the clippers big gets just haven't provided expected impact. While they could definitely use a kyle lowry to help them diversify their late game attack. I can't really call Kawhi a fool for expecting the clippers to be good, yet I also can't say he's the reason why he can't get it done. Honestly it's a weird situation. The clippers could lose tommorrow, or they could win in 7 beat the suns, then beat the Jazz/Nuggets Victor, and finally whoever comes out of the East. A lot depends on their shooting

I think the squaring of the circle here is just that the Clippers are very, very good, but so are other teams, and the Clippers don't have a star who really thrives at team impact.

Kawhi when he's on is a top tier volume scorer, and that of course helps your team, but it's not the same kind of impact you expect to get from a player who is looking to find the defense's weakness rather than a defender's weakness. When a team seems basically to be working as designed but their overall effectiveness seems to be missing something, I tend to ask questions like these. "Who on the team has global awareness and is making the scheme functional optimally each possession?" You want the answer to be the superstar, you can get away with it if you're got others on the court with that awareness who are playing big minutes and doing the decision making. But simply acquiring an aging Rajon Rondo and having him in uniform is not necessarily going to get you there.

[Doctor MJ]

Kawhi's head got too big after winning in '19. He's quiet so it doesn't get talked about much.

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

I think the way he was dictating his terms to the Clippers said a lot. He basically told them that he'd come but that they weren't good enough and needed to get PG to get him to come. Then he made the Lakers wait until the last second and didn't let them know that he was never intending to join anyway. And then the massive marketing about him being the new king of LA. It was a massive amount of hubris that followed his 19 run.

Oh absolutely, it's only a question of what Kawhi's specific motivation was.

It may be, for example, a situation where Kawhi's uncle asked him "What is it that's important to you?", and then dictated tactics from there.

Additionally, the way the Clippers marketing machine operated once they got Kawhi/PG was about what sounded best for the Clippers I think rather than about following a specific plan from Clan Kawhi.

Even the way the negotiations of what Kawhi would and would not have to do for the Clippers - the games off chillin' in San Diego - I don't know if it was about ego. May just be they were thinking about in terms of leverage against an employer looking to exploit you.

But as I say all of that, I'm not trying to let Kawhi off the hook, and specifically I'm bothered by any star negotiating things from the franchise that a) lesser teammates won't be allowed to do and b) aren't what that franchise considers to be good for the team. Divas cause damage to teams and frankly I don't think anyone who has been playing in team sports their entire life should need that explained to them.

[Fadeaway_J]

I think what's interesting about Kawhi is that it really may not have been about ego at all, but I think it's really, really clear that he and his circle drastically underestimated how lucky he was to play for first Pop and then Nurse. It allow him to really believe his set of skills made everything else around him inevitable, and now it's crystal clear that they don't and he's not able to expand his game to make up for what is missed when playing with a more average coach with a less magically fitting supporting cast.

I don't think there's any doubt that if he stays in Toronto he basically goes down as a tippy top tier superstar even if the team can't ever win another title. But with him on the Clippers, if they never figure it out, Kawhi's reputation is going to continue to fade.

In this series it's odd because I can't even really say him or George are playing bad it's just Dallas has performed better offensively, and some of the clippers big gets just haven't provided expected impact. While they could definitely use a kyle lowry to help them diversify their late game attack. I can't really call Kawhi a fool for expecting the clippers to be good, yet I also can't say he's the reason why he can't get it done. Honestly it's a weird situation. The clippers could lose tommorrow, or they could win in 7 beat the suns, then beat the Jazz/Nuggets Victor, and finally whoever comes out of the East. A lot depends on their shooting

I think the squaring of the circle here is just that the Clippers are very, very good, but so are other teams, and the Clippers don't have a star who really thrives at team impact.

Kawhi when he's on is a top tier volume scorer, and that of course helps your team, but it's not the same kind of impact you expect to get from a player who is looking to find the defense's weakness rather than a defender's weakness. When a team seems basically to be working as designed but their overall effectiveness seems to be missing something, I tend to ask questions like these. "Who on the team has global awareness and is making the scheme functional optimally each possession?" You want the answer to be the superstar, you can get away with it if you're got others on the court with that awareness who are playing big minutes and doing the decision making. But simply acquiring an aging Rajon Rondo and having him in uniform is not necessarily going to get you there.

It seems like the real miscalculation was betting the farm on PG (from Kawhi's standpoint since he was the one who pushed for it). While PG seems to have the most portable game you could hope for from a perennial All-Star wing, Kawhi is probably the only player at that level who he doesn't really complement all that well. They're not actively harming each other put it's rare to have a star pairing with such relatively weak playmaking. Adding in someone like Lowry or Conley would probably make the whole mix work better, but that's hard to do when you're already all-in on PG being the AD to Kawhi's LeBron.

[Dr Positivity]

They really needed healthy Ibaka. I thought he was going to be significant for them giving them a good player who's not a wing and with the playoff experience and intensity. Clippers Kawhi and George is still a better combo than 2019 Kawhi and Siakam however the rest of the rosters are not close and that's before considering intangibles.

[Doctor MJ]

It seems like the real miscalculation was betting the farm on PG (from Kawhi's standpoint since he was the one who pushed for it). While PG seems to have the most portable game you could hope for from a perennial All-Star wing, Kawhi is probably the only player at that level who he doesn't really complement all that well. They're not actively harming each other put it's rare to have a star pairing with such relatively weak playmaking. Adding in someone like Lowry or Conley would probably make the whole mix work better, but that's hard to do when you're already all-in on PG being the AD to Kawhi's LeBron.

Ain't that the truth.

I still think it's within the realm of possibility that the Clippers can win a title roughly like this - they remain quite good and we shouldn't forget it - but I think one of the most damning things BBIQ-wise about Kawhi is that after playing in two situations with something close to perfect fit, he chose a new co-star without seeming to have even a basic thought to whose strengths would help shore up his own limitations.

I will say, it's worth nothing that while LeBron-AD is genius, LeBron-Wade was most definitely not. So it's not like LeBron has always been this savvy either, but LeBron was also trying to figure out what truly worked because he came of age in a weak organization with weak coaches. There's something...privileged, about how Kawhi went about things here.

Kawhi didn't understand how little he understood, and did not appreciate how fortunate he'd been on the two teams he dumped.

[Fadeaway_J]

It seems like the real miscalculation was betting the farm on PG (from Kawhi's standpoint since he was the one who pushed for it). While PG seems to have the most portable game you could hope for from a perennial All-Star wing, Kawhi is probably the only player at that level who he doesn't really complement all that well. They're not actively harming each other put it's rare to have a star pairing with such relatively weak playmaking. Adding in someone like Lowry or Conley would probably make the whole mix work better, but that's hard to do when you're already all-in on PG being the AD to Kawhi's LeBron.

Ain't that the truth.

I still think it's within the realm of possibility that the Clippers can win a title roughly like this - they remain quite good and we shouldn't forget it - but I think one of the most damning things BBIQ-wise about Kawhi is that after playing in two situations with something close to perfect fit, he chose a new co-star without seeming to have even a basic thought to whose strengths would help shore up his own limitations.

I will say, it's worth nothing that while LeBron-AD is genius, LeBron-Wade was most definitely not. So it's not like LeBron has always been this savvy either, but LeBron was also trying to figure out what truly worked because he came of age in a weak organization with weak coaches. There's something...privileged, about how Kawhi went about things here.

Kawhi didn't understand how little he understood, and did not appreciate how fortunate he'd been on the two teams he dumped.

To be fair to LeBron, his decision would also have been affected by his friendship with Wade, and also Wade in a vacuum is just a different category of player from PG.

I think Kawhi-PG is perfectly viable as a starting pair, but it's just not one of those pairs that collectively covers for a bunch of weaknesses elsewhere and allows you to get away with a more flawed supporting cast - partly because the fit isn't amazing and partly because PG just isn't that level of second banana. So even in this series where they've been mostly great individually, it hasn't provided the kind of lift you get from a true superstar duo. They can't erase defensive mistakes like AD, warp your defensive scheme like Steph, or consistently create easy shots with their passing like LeBron. If they end up winning, it's going to be with a lot less margin for error than a healthy LeBron and AD for example.