PG: Knicks-Hawks aka 1,2,3,Cancun! (Hawks win series 4-1)

[Deeeez Knicks]

All MAX contracts aren't created equal. Randle at $26M, which is what his MAX extension would be for, is what a player of his level costs. Even if you think he peaks as a 3rd option.

$26mil isnt even that much given the cap. There are players making over $40mil and over 40+ players in the league making over $26mil.

When you put it in perspective that he was making 20M a year before he ever even proved that he could play at an all-star level, or be on a winning team at all, or take a team to the playoffs, 25-26M is a bargain imo

Yea, if you are getting the Randle we got in the regular season it is still a good price for that production.

[K_ick_God]

Probably a moot point in the sense that they can trade Randle at that dollar amount I THINK. So they'll probably at least enter in even if they send him out.

[god shammgod]

It's just as easy to get out of as not paying the wrong guy though.

The issue is that nobody gets to tank all the time the same way that nobody gets to just keep not paying talent.

most people don't know that they're paying the wrong guy when they do

It's the same for drafting the wrong guy.

You're either potentially wasting massive amounts of time or massive amounts of money.

Money can be managed. Time is lost forever.

you'll lose more time though by paying the wrong guy. we're going in circles with this argument.

i'm confused to why you're so gung ho on this front office being able to succeed. because that's the crux of this, you really believe in them. i haven't seen anything so far to convince me. it seems we're keeping perry even.

[Gravy]

The best case scenario for tanking is you draft a great player and then you end up in the exact same situation we are in now where you have to find free agents and decide if your guy is a "true #1 option".

This step we are currently in is what tanking leads to, gutting the team and starting over just delays it another 8 years.

[DOT]

Read on Twitter

the consensus is that randle is a number 3 option and it might hinder you to get 1 & 2 if you pay him

“I don’t believe Julius is a max guy,” an NBA executive told HoopsHype. “He’s a good player, but definitely not a max guy in my opinion. I don’t think his season was a fluke. I think Thibs and Kenny Payne are great for him, I just don’t think he is a max player.”

“I’m not sure I’d extend him,” another NBA executive told HoopsHype. “If they go another year under his current contract to let him prove that this year wasn’t a fluke, they’ll still have Bird Rights and can always give him an extra year more than other teams when he’s an unrestricted free agent.”

Other executives aren’t overreacting to one bad playoff series compared to his 71 regular-season games played at a high level. With that said, some believe there’s no rush for New York to get something done.

“I’d probably wait (to extend him),” a third NBA executive told HoopsHype. “If he has another great year, great. I don’t see another team offering much more as a free agent.”

“I doubt they would offer him the max cause they would be bidding against themselves,” a fourth NBA executive told HoopsHype.

The other side to the coin is if they wait to extend him to see if he has another great year, and he does, it will cost us significantly more to retain him and at that point we would risk losing him for nothing if we didn't, so we would be in an even tougher spot next summer and might end up having to put him on an even worse contract

Also, if we sign him to a 4 year, 106 extension now, his cap hit next offseason will be 26.5 million, where if we wait to re-sign him, his cap hold is 30 million, so it could save us 3.5 million next offseason to do it now

It's gonna come down to if we want to gamble on this year being the real him and disregard the playoffs and his first year with us. Cause if he plays the way he did this past year, 26 mil a year is a bargain, and even if we max RJ, we'd still have a ton of cap space for a max contract superstar, and then some

It's a risk either way, but that's life.

[GONYK]

No, the major flaw is that people think tanking means we have to go 0-82 for 5 straight years.

Can you define what it means for you? I think it means different things for the different people advocating for it.

To me it means playing the young kids, and living with the results.

To me, that is totally fair. If you're saying that would rather have sacrificed the playoff season in order to give players on their rookie deals consistent spots in the rotation and sat Bullock, Burks, Payton, Rose, etc... I can see the argument.

That might have yielded us picking 8-14 rather than 1-3 though

[3toheadmelo]

The Knicks tanked two years ago and we still missed out on Zion and Ja. No matter what we do, we are screwed

[GONYK]

The Knicks tanked two years ago and we still missed out on Zion and Ja. No matter what we do, we are screwed

And we were jumped by teams in the 8-10 spots for those players

[GONYK]

most people don't know that they're paying the wrong guy when they do

It's the same for drafting the wrong guy.

You're either potentially wasting massive amounts of time or massive amounts of money.

Money can be managed. Time is lost forever.

you'll lose more time though by paying the wrong guy. we're going in circles with this argument.

i'm confused to why you're so gung ho on this front office being able to succeed. because that's the crux of this, you really believe in them. i haven't seen anything so far to convince me. it seems we're keeping perry even.

I'm not gung ho on them definitely being successful. I'm just gung ho on that we are currently in a good place with all the options on the table. They can still f*ck it up.

But as of right now, they haven't, and there isn't any reason to prematurely get depressed.

[robillionaire]

it's not, it's just easier to get out of. you don't draft the guy you need you can just try again. start paying guys and you might be stuck for years.

It's just as easy to get out of as not paying the wrong guy though.

The issue is that nobody gets to tank all the time the same way that nobody gets to just keep not paying talent.

most people don't know that they're paying the wrong guy when they do

true, take kristaps porzingis for example, a very bad basketball player who is not an all star and had 8 points in the last playoff game he played in, and is getting benched for boban marjanovic, and is going to be making 36 million a year in 2024

[Deeeez Knicks]

The tank talk is just dumb if people are really being serious about it. We played the season and let the chips fall where they may....F'd around and got the 4th seed without doing anything really. What else you want them to do? Tanking wasnt even an option.

Dont get me wrong..would have loved a top 5 pick. But it just wasnt happening this season

[Striders]

Reminder: We decided to ruin our draft hopes again and destroy our chances getting an all-star/superstar level player for cheap just so we can win exactly one playoff game and get humiliated on national television. Also to placate a coach who doesn't know how to adapt and felt we needed to win now for some reason.

This, this, and THIS.

Trading for Rose just show's how shortsighted our front office is. This draft potentially has 5 stars (minimum) in it, and we decide to make a trade so MAYBE we could get past the first round of the playoffs. Such as typical Knicks front office move. We'll miss out on these players, then see them start to bloom as stars in the league... but at least we got completely embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs. It was so great to get that playoff experience!! We can build off of this!! Yeah, okay. As Minnesota adds to their deep talent pool with Ant, and maybe Cade or Suggs, we were happy to get into the first round of the playoffs. Typical Knicks.

Stop lying. The Knicks aren't a treadmill team whose sole focus was making the playoffs this year. They *are* building something and have the clear flexibility to do so across the board, which you either choose to ignore or are far too ignorant to understand.

There's been numerous reports that Thibs didn't want to do a full rebuild, and just wanted to win. Sorry, but I'm quite tired of hearing about free agency on this board.

[Garbagelo]

So is Randle still a cornerstone player?

[GONYK]

This, this, and THIS.

Trading for Rose just show's how shortsighted our front office is. This draft potentially has 5 stars (minimum) in it, and we decide to make a trade so MAYBE we could get past the first round of the playoffs. Such as typical Knicks front office move. We'll miss out on these players, then see them start to bloom as stars in the league... but at least we got completely embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs. It was so great to get that playoff experience!! We can build off of this!! Yeah, okay. As Minnesota adds to their deep talent pool with Ant, and maybe Cade or Suggs, we were happy to get into the first round of the playoffs. Typical Knicks.

Stop lying. The Knicks aren't a treadmill team whose sole focus was making the playoffs this year. They *are* building something and have the clear flexibility to do so across the board, which you either choose to ignore or are far too ignorant to understand.

There's been numerous reports that Thibs didn't want to do a full rebuild, and just wanted to win. Sorry, but I'm quite tired of hearing about free agency on this board.

But the FO didn't listen to him...

[3toheadmelo]

The tank talk is just dumb if people are really being serious about it. We played the season and let the chips fall where they may....F'd around and got the 4th seed without doing anything really. What else you want them to do? Tanking wasnt even an option.

Dont get me wrong..would have loved a top 5 pick. But it just wasnt happening this season

It’s like crying over spoiled milk at this point

[K_ick_God]

I'm not sure I can successfully tie these things together but the way Randle tried way too hard to knife around the court ... compared to how ticky-tack the fouls are with guys like Trae and the sense of calm that gives him as a player ...

It's totally anti-competitive. It causes you to expend energy in the wrong ways and leads to a very odd imbalance of poor/soft defense and forced 1 on 1 play.

Basketball is a contact sport. Full stop lol. Two things:

1. Like how is the NBA reffed to call fouls when two people going for a loose ball make contact side by side? They called a foul on the Knicks bumping Capela last night. What is that? A loose ball is up for grabs, let them bump around to go hard for it.

2. When a player goes to the basket, and it's not in shooting motion, like Trae with that RJ call and again last night on the Rose call, that's minor incidental contact NOT using hands. No hand check, just a small bump. You can't call that a foul without making the league entirely soft and pointless and killing any energy. A bump that really slows him down OR goes forward into him is a foul. Rose and RJ are even to his path or moving backward. You are making defense illegal.

[Phish Tank]

The debate should be whether Randle's a 2nd option or 3rd option. There's validity to both. Then you ask yourself can RJ improve his finishing to be a 3rd option - or potentially leapfrog to become a 2nd?

Remember that 1st-3rd options get paid near max money. 4/$106 isn't earth shattering tbh.... if Randle even accepts that, it's a workabale contract, especially with RJ being effectively the 2nd highest player on the squad by next season.

Then you have to work to find your franchise guy and surrounding pieces. Beal wouldn't be a bad start, but the price is high. Dame might just be too expensive. Then fill out the players with role players who are upgrades over the rest.... figure out how to move Reggie to the bench - a Beal trade would do that.

[K_ick_God]

... and it would be one thing if the players played through it but they can't/won't. They call minor stuff flagrants too.

The whole thing is demoralizing to D and to hard play. Why even go for a loose ball? If I was an NBA player, I wouldn't even lift weights.

They have turned basketball, a contact sport, into track running essentially. Bump the other runner and you are disqualified.

[3toheadmelo]

If Brogdon is available, Knicks should target him depending on the price

[Iron Mantis]

The best case scenario for tanking is you draft a great player and then you end up in the exact same situation we are in now where you have to find free agents and decide if your guy is a "true #1 option".

This step we are currently in is what tanking leads to, gutting the team and starting over just delays it another 8 years.

I don't want to be at Silver's mercy for the "lotto".

Lottery hasn't done the Knicks any favors when they've found themselves among the league's worst records.

Knicks should've had Zion or Morant. The Knicks have never moved up in the draft since the new lottery, but have always been leapfrogged, or stay the same when they're stuck with 8 and beyond.

They way the lottery is structured now, the Knicks will have to either be incredibly fortunate, or bottom-feed for 10 years or better until the league finally doesn't shaft the Knicks in the draft.

I agree that the Knicks just need to install a winning culture and draft better with where they're positioned and develop the talent.