PG: Knicks-Hawks aka 1,2,3,Cancun! (Hawks win series 4-1)

[moocow007]

Are we firing Thibs? The answer to that question is the same to whether we tank.

I thought we should have brought in Atkinson, moved Randle for contracts and draft capital, and had a "development year" where we brought in young free agents and played young. We didn't do that last year when the path was clear to do it. It's not going to happen now.

We aren't firing Thibs. Not only would it look awful for the front office but it would put this team back to square one and get everyone of those guys in the front office one step closer to being shown the door themselves. As far as Atkinson goes? He got a similarly talent Nets team to the same type of situation so I don't think he would have helped tank any. As far as "development"? Under Thibs you had Randle have one of the most transformative 1 year jumps in NBA history and you saw improvements in both players that this front office was involved in drafting. So I think folks are not giving this Knicks coaching staff the credit it should from a "development" standpoint.

[moocow007]

What is a totally plausible scenario:

We tank and get the top pick and get some college stud PG who is quick and a floor general, and then the better player in the draft is taken 2. And the tankers say 'Well we tanked and picked the wrong guy.'

It's a shell game lol.

Knicks fans, gotta love them.

[K_ick_God]

I think you have to take the playoffs to heart and seriously and maybe not even do the contract. Sign and trade him if someone wants him who is capped out.

[moocow007]

if you're sold on RJ Barrett's promise, then be advised you're not going to be able to tank effectively as long as he plays.

A team in which RJ is your best player is a guaranteed high lotto pick. I'm all for it.

Not with Thibs here it's not. The Knicks are hands down the least talented team in the playoffs. And honestly, you can argue the bottom 3 in the entire NBA in terms of overall talent (the Pistons is the only team in the NBA you can easily argue has less talent than the Knicks). Thibs managed to get a team that is really bereft of any serious defensive talent to be a top 3 defensive team. Cannot tank if your head coach can manage that. You want to tank you bring Fizdale back or put someone like Mark Jackson in that will make this team all about himself and then..yeah...the sum will be even worse than the individual parts.

[makeitstop]

The best case scenario for tanking is you draft a great player and then you end up in the exact same situation we are in now where you have to find free agents and decide if your guy is a "true #1 option".

This step we are currently in is what tanking leads to, gutting the team and starting over just delays it another 8 years.

I don't want to be at Silver's mercy for the "lotto".

Lottery hasn't done the Knicks any favors when they've found themselves among the league's worst records.

Knicks should've had Zion or Morant. The Knicks have never moved up in the draft since the new lottery, but have always been leapfrogged, or stay the same when they're stuck with 8 and beyond.

They way the lottery is structured now, the Knicks will have to either be incredibly fortunate, or bottom-feed for 10 years or better until the league finally doesn't shaft the Knicks in the draft.

I agree that the Knicks just need to install a winning culture and draft better with where they're positioned and develop the talent.

There's no star that would satisfy everyone either.

If we had Zion people would say he's fat, lazy defender that cant stay healthy. Ja Morant cant shoot 3s and you dont want your best player to be the pg or whatever reason for more tanking. Its a gambling addiction that never ends.

I think a big part of the attraction to tanking is it gives people license to complain about the team every game - and you know we love to do that here. Hell, this board still complained when the Knicks were winning.

[Clyde Frazier]

This, this, and THIS.

Trading for Rose just show's how shortsighted our front office is. This draft potentially has 5 stars (minimum) in it, and we decide to make a trade so MAYBE we could get past the first round of the playoffs. Such as typical Knicks front office move. We'll miss out on these players, then see them start to bloom as stars in the league... but at least we got completely embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs. It was so great to get that playoff experience!! We can build off of this!! Yeah, okay. As Minnesota adds to their deep talent pool with Ant, and maybe Cade or Suggs, we were happy to get into the first round of the playoffs. Typical Knicks.

Stop lying. The Knicks aren't a treadmill team whose sole focus was making the playoffs this year. They *are* building something and have the clear flexibility to do so across the board, which you either choose to ignore or are far too ignorant to understand.

There's been numerous reports that Thibs didn't want to do a full rebuild, and just wanted to win. Sorry, but I'm quite tired of hearing about free agency on this board.

I didn't say anything about free agency.

[moocow007]

I think you have to take the playoffs to heart and seriously and maybe not even do the contract. Sign and trade him if someone wants him who is capped out.

Anyone can be traded for sure...in the right deal. But you cannot be trading someone cause "you hate his guts" or cause "he puked all over the playoffs". That's really the difference here. Honestly, most NBA team front offices would probably LOVE it if Knick fans were allowed to run the Knicks.

[Capn'O]

Are we firing Thibs? The answer to that question is the same to whether we tank.

I thought we should have brought in Atkinson, moved Randle for contracts and draft capital, and had a "development year" where we brought in young free agents and played young. We didn't do that last year when the path was clear to do it. It's not going to happen now.

We aren't firing Thibs. Not only would it look awful for the front office but it would put this team back to square one and get everyone of those guys in the front office one step closer to being shown the door themselves. As far as Atkinson goes? He got a similarly talent Nets team to the same type of situation so I don't think he would have helped tank any. As far as "development"? Under Thibs you had Randle have one of the most transformative 1 year jumps in NBA history and you saw improvements in both players that this front office was involved in drafting. So I think folks are not giving this Knicks coaching staff the credit it should from a "development" standpoint.

Exactly. Of course we're not firing Thibs.

I don't disagree with you that another coach may have similarly increased win totals and developed players. But they may have done more of a liquidation with another coach where it would have been harder to make such a pronounced turnaround. More, the point is that the org has shown its direction with the decisions it made. We hired Thibs, kept Randle, and brought in D Rose. We're not tanking.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Personally, to me it is more than winning and losing. It is about making transactions for future as your goal vs today. Taking on salaries for draft picks, signing undrafted players to team friendly contracts, taking chances on high lottery picks that didn’t do well etc.

Honestly the goal should be about winning not about which players you like or don't like want or don't want. I for one would be willing to trade anyone if it means the Knicks can take the next step forward. Getting better and taking the next step involves finding the right deal and building a team that fits. Whether that deal is found this upcoming offseason or the next one really doesn't matter as long as you have an idea of who is your core and what works around him/them. The Hawks are a perfect example of that. Travis Schlenk, the Hawks GM (and the guy many believe was the brain behind the Warrior championship roster builds) executed that plan to a tee. He built the perfect team to surround his one star and he did it in real short order. He didn't wait and sit on his hands waiting for that 2nd star first. He got guys in that can take his team up a notch or two which not only builds his franchise as a possible destination of choice for stars but also builds up the value of a lot of the young players that he has should he find an opportunity to make trades to land another star or two. The Knicks need to work hard to make moves that can help this team get better (value of what is given up <<< value of what is gained). Hopefully this particular front office can do that.

The difference between the Knicks and the Hawks is that the Hawks have a star and a bunch of young talented players that they can surround with vets from free agency. In my humble opinion, we don't have a star and I wouldn't count on RJ or any of our other young guys being a star anytime soon if ever.

Really it's Rose and Gibson that carried this team from a fringe playoff team into a 4th seed and if we're being honest with ourselves, the core of this team is much closer to being a bad team than a good team. We got blown out in 3 straight games by the Hawks and they're a fine up and coming team, but at this moment in time they're far from one of the best teams in the league. it would have been much more palatable if the games were close, but they really weren't

[Mr Rabbit]

Whether you’re pro tank or not, nobody really believes there’s any chance that’s the route this team takes from here, right? If they didn’t tank post Melo or after being rejected by KD and Kyrie, there is no shot they are tanking now. I’m fully expecting them to write Paul a blank check, and, assuming he signs, making a godfather offer for Jimmy. Like a great man once said…

[Phish Tank]

Are we firing Thibs? The answer to that question is the same to whether we tank.

I thought we should have brought in Atkinson, moved Randle for contracts and draft capital, and had a "development year" where we brought in young free agents and played young. We didn't do that last year when the path was clear to do it. It's not going to happen now.

We aren't firing Thibs. Not only would it look awful for the front office but it would put this team back to square one and get everyone of those guys in the front office one step closer to being shown the door themselves. As far as Atkinson goes? He got a similarly talent Nets team to the same type of situation so I don't think he would have helped tank any. As far as "development"? Under Thibs you had Randle have one of the most transformative 1 year jumps in NBA history and you saw improvements in both players that this front office was involved in drafting. So I think folks are not giving this Knicks coaching staff the credit it should from a "development" standpoint.

Exactly. Of course we're not firing Thibs.

I don't disagree with you that another coach may have similarly increased win totals and developed players. But they may have done more of a liquidation with another coach where it would have been harder to make such a pronounced turnaround. More, the point is that the org has shown its direction with the decisions it made. We hired Thibs, kept Randle, and brought in D Rose. We're not tanking.

and Leon Rose wasn't brought in for a multi-season tank

[Ghetto Gospel]

What is a totally plausible scenario:

We tank and get the top pick and get some college stud PG who is quick and a floor general, and then the better player in the draft is taken 2. And the tankers say 'Well we tanked and picked the wrong guy.'

It's a shell game lol.

imo, that's the serious problem with taking that college stud PG. Their skills are so translatable early that you end up having a team that may have been so bereft of talent that you were once picking in the top 3, but because he is good right out of the gate that you end up picking top 10-15 and never refilling the cupboard

[Sark]

Lettuce bee reality, even the years when we got KP and RJ, we didn't tank on purpose. We were trying to be good, but ended up being terrible by accident. The Knicks have never actually tanked, and never will with Dolan owning the team.

[mpharris36]

Are we firing Thibs? The answer to that question is the same to whether we tank.

I thought we should have brought in a coach like Atkinson, moved Randle for contracts and draft capital, and had a "development year" where we brought in young free agents and played young players big minutes. We didn't do that last year when the path was clear to do it. It's not going to happen now.

I agree 100% with this. Once Thibs was the guy we were going in that direction.

The success of this organization will be make or break on what players they target and who they decide to pay.

Randle being a lock to get paid before the playoffs to now having at least some question marks throws a little wrench into the plans...because he was obviously going to be a selling point for Leon and WWW to come play with the knicks. Not sure how much that will be the case this offseason now with how poorly he played.

[Striders]

What is a totally plausible scenario:

We tank and get the top pick and get some college stud PG who is quick and a floor general, and then the better player in the draft is taken 2. And the tankers say 'Well we tanked and picked the wrong guy.'

It's a shell game lol.

So we get a quality, cheap player to develop and would actually give us an offense to run? Sounds great.

Tanking isn't "foolproof" or anything like that, but this foolish win now mentality has been the bane to the existence of this franchise for more than 20 years. NOTHING in this league is foolproof, but the method of making ourselves appealing to free agents hasn't worked at all, nor has signing decent players to bloated contracts.

[will34]

Thibs did a fantastic job..the roster is not talented and he got them to a 4 seed. With Fizdale that is a 20 win team. Maybe less because that's how clueless Fiz is.

[Handledatruth]

Predictable "blow it all up" talk once again. Forget the fact that the Knicks found a formula to win despite lacking the talent of most teams on a night to night basis. You got a 20 year that went from 14 PPG to 17 PPG while improving his FG, 3P, and FT percentages (therefore becoming more efficient) and yet he's junk all of sudden. Come on folks. What are these hot takes?

[3toheadmelo]

Our fan base is still the greatest

Read on Twitter

[BugginOut]

Don’t believe we had a whole season of Knicks fans apologizing to Randle for treating him bad last season, and that he was our “savior” and as soon as he has a bad 2 weeks everyone is all back to wanting to ship him out.

Either root for the man or don’t, but don’t flip flop

[DaGawd]

Lettuce bee reality, even the years when we got KP and RJ, we didn't tank on purpose. We were trying to be good, but ended up being terrible by accident. The Knicks have never actually tanked, and never will with Dolan owning the team.

Don’t really see why that matters if we intentionally tanked or not.. we were still bad enough to be in position to draft guys like Zion, Ja, Michael Porter Jr, miles bridges Mikal Bridges Donovan Mitchell and so on.. we just either got unlucky with draft lottery position or completely **** the bed scouting