2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[MO12msu]

Booker had a really rough 3 game stretch from games 2-4 and Ayton was getting praise as the best Sun. Man these narratives change quick in the playoffs.

[HeartBreakKid]

Ok, so you're just being a contrarian.

And you're being a jackass.

And I am pointing out how your logic is flawed and is a hot take.

That's not what a hot take means.

"a piece of commentary, typically produced quickly in response to a recent event, whose primary purpose is to attract attention."


Certainly sounds like one to me. Sounds like something I'd read in the general boards, and that's hot take central.

Without even seeing things through (your conclusion is made off of a 2 vs 7 matchup and you basically don't even take into account the entire data of the regular season [which is strange since your original point is about a regular season award]) you're making some half-baked assumption based on something that just happened, using surface level arguments and not looking into any nuance whatsoever.

You won't even wait until round 2 when the Suns face a better team to make your conclusion - likely because you just want to get something out while it's hot and just happened (a hot take) even if it's way too early to make your conclusion still.

My last post on the topic.

[Doctor MJ]

right, 2019

i will say too, that at least a plurality of nba fans seemingly still had lebron as the best player in the world coming into 2020 (it felt like everyone was divides into kawhi/lebron with some curry or dursnt if healthy backers)

if the lakers lose now i wont feel confident on lebron as a top 3 or even top 5 player next year, how athletism looks shot and he will be 37

hopefully i am wrong tho, it will be a had underwhelming if the Disney bubble turns out to be james swan song, i hoped he could have one last great run in front of fans

Good thoughts. Keep thing I want to zero on is "I won't feel confident". That's a wise, cautious way of putting it. I felt similarly in '18-19. I wasn't ready to say LeBron was past his prime, but I also wasn't confident he wasn't past his prime. It could come at any time. It will come at some time. Some time might be now.

But we did also suspect up front this year that '20-21 might be particularly brutal for those who played longest in the Bubble.
We'll learn a lot in '21-22.

[Basileus777]

I never thought CP3 was MVP in the first place

Ok, so you're just being a contrarian.

And you're being a jackass.

And I am pointing out how your logic is flawed and is a hot take.

I do not think Chris Paul is the MVP of the entire league, nor do most people (he was not even a finalist). But you also said that he's not the best player on the Suns, which we have no idea if that's true or not. If Booker had been injured and Paul healthy - do the Suns still win in 6? If so, then how is the premise any different?

I don't really see how the evidence of the regular season plus the postseason points to Chris Paul being the main driver behind the Suns success to the point where he deserves to be pushed forward as a MVP candidate. If anything the everything suggests that Booker is their best player and while Paul has played a critical role, he is not in fact worthy of being named the league's most valuable player.

This is the point I haven driven at, you've made a lot of noise, but what exactly are you objecting to?

And you keep editing your posts after you submit them (and I respond) making this a bit difficult.

[Doctor MJ]

Actually, what are we even saying? The Lakers who aren't very good won two games against the Suns when Paul's injury was at its worst.

Don't think people are registering that the Lakers are not good.

Dude,
when AD was being AD, the Lakers were winning.
when the Suns were winning, the winning approach was "Give Booker the ball", which works really well when AD is not AD.

Paul's an all-timer and a worthy All-NBA player this year, but basketball-wise, to me it feels like you're trying to shoehorn a Point God narrative where it doesn't fit.

[HeartBreakKid]

Actually, what are we even saying? The Lakers who aren't very good won two games against the Suns when Paul's injury was at its worst.

Don't think people are registering that the Lakers are not good.

Dude,
when AD was being AD, the Lakers were winning.
when the Suns were winning, the winning approach was "Give Booker the ball", which works really well when AD is not AD.

Paul's an all-timer and a worthy All-NBA player this year, but basketball-wise, to me it feels like you're trying to shoehorn a Point God narrative where it doesn't fit.

Statement: Suns beat the Lakers with great offense, this destroys CP3 MVP narrative (I never thought CP3 was MVP in the first place, but that's the premise)

Counter argument: The Lakers aren't that good (because of injury or what ever reason). 2 seed beating a 7th seed while hurt is not unheard of. Chris Paul still makes a tremendous difference and might be their best player still. Nothing has been "proven" yet because the Suns have not been tested.

Supplementary point: The Suns lost to the Lakers twice, despite the Lakers not being that good (because the Lakers are injured or whatever reason - if you want to say the Lakers won because AD played well, then the logic remains the same because it still shows they would need CP3 to beat a good team). The Suns still have room for improvement (likely due to the absence of CP3)




If you want to say that the Lakers were winning when AD was playing well (which is true)...that still backs up my point. If the Lakers played like 2020 Lakers and lost 4-2 then the original premise that Devin Booker >>> everyone would hold more weight.

Do you agree or not?

I am not injecting any narrative you're much bigger on narratives than me Doc ( If anything I am very dry and boring) . I am saying you cannot conclude that Booker is better than CP3 based on one first round series.

I haven't said anything "more" about Chris Paul than that. That it's not conclusive that he's not the best player, and that the Suns still could/would do better if CP3 was healthy (I am not saying the Lakers wouldn't be better if Davis was healthy or playing well, not sure how anyone is coming to that conclusion. The two things are not binary)

[eminence]

I do think CP3 was the Suns best player during the regular season and likely still has the overall season lead for them for me, but this series certainly isn't propelling him towards POY.

[Doctor MJ]

Actually, what are we even saying? The Lakers who aren't very good won two games against the Suns when Paul's injury was at its worst.

Don't think people are registering that the Lakers are not good.

Dude,
when AD was being AD, the Lakers were winning.
when the Suns were winning, the winning approach was "Give Booker the ball", which works really well when AD is not AD.

Paul's an all-timer and a worthy All-NBA player this year, but basketball-wise, to me it feels like you're trying to shoehorn a Point God narrative where it doesn't fit.

Statement: Suns beat the Lakers with great offense, this destroys CP3 MVP narrative (I never thought CP3 was MVP in the first place, but that's the premise)

Counter argument: The Lakers aren't that good (because of injury or what ever reason). 2 seed beating a 7th seed while hurt is not unheard of. Chris Paul still makes a tremendous difference and might be their best player still. Nothing has been "proven" yet because the Suns have not been tested.

Supplementary point: The Suns lost to the Lakers twice, despite the Lakers not being that good (because the Lakers are injured or whatever reason). The Suns still have room for improvement (likely due to the absence of CP3)




If you want to say that the Lakers were winning when AD was playing well (which is true)...that still backs up my point. If the Lakers played like 2019 Lakers and lost 4-2 then the original premise that Devin Booker >>> everyone would hold more weight.

Do you agree or not?

I am not injecting any narrative you're much bigger on narratives than me Doc ( If anything I am very dry and boring) . I am saying you cannot conclude that Booker is better than CP3 based on one first round series.

I haven't said anything "more" about Chris Paul than that. That it's not conclusive that he's not the best player, and that the Suns still could/would do better if CP3 was healthy (I am not saying the Lakers wouldn't be better if Davis was healthy or playing well, not sure how anyone is coming to that conclusion. The two things are not binary)

Not entirely sure how to respond. I don't believe Booker >>> everyone else.

To your later point, I try to avoid talking too much about "better" when we talk mid-season. I prefer to talk about value. Booker had a serious argument for regular season team MVP, and was just the dominant reason why they won the first series. Good reason to give him the nod for the season.

This doesn't necessarily mean he's as capable at leaping from team to team and contributing value as Paul is, and so you could argue that Paul is still the overall better player when all things are considered, but value-wise, Booker's done what he's done.

[CBA]

There’s really no argument that Booker was the better or more impactful player for the Suns during the regular season - even if you somehow didn’t watch the Suns all year.

[eminence]

There’s really no argument that Booker was the better or more impactful player for the Suns during the regular season - even if you somehow didn’t watch the Suns all year.

Basically agreed with this. Booker did not have a very good RS, I don't think he has any real argument over CP3 for RS MVP.

Now in the playoffs, sure, he and Ayton have played like their stars.

[Basileus777]

If we swapped Booker with anyone else we'd be talking about how he had no help tonight. Hell, people are demanding that Dame force his way out when he had more help than Booker.

[GSP]

LOL Cp3 has 0 chance to be in Poy discussion. He was great in game 4 which was prolly the most important game of the series but hes played some of the worst ball ever for a top player in the other games. Obviously hes hurt but you still have to go by what hes done on the court. Booker is clearly Phoenixs best player now.

This is like Miami in 05.

Shaq and Cp3 were the regular season Mvp candidates and best players in the regular season but in the playoffs the young guards in Wade and Booker took the reigns.

In a career full of strange moments and series this might be the strangest for Cp3. He pulls out the win against the defending champs as the series underdogs..... but his backup Cam Payne was better than him for the series and Phoenixs best Pg for the series. Cp3 had an alltime bad series. La was flatout defending him like Rondo offball. He was seeing 20ft of space and not being guarded

[Doctor MJ]

There’s really no argument that Booker was the better or more impactful player for the Suns during the regular season - even if you somehow didn’t watch the Suns all year.

I mean, Booker does have a higher +/- than Paul. I'm not saying that's proof he should rank higher than Paul - to be clear, I had Paul ahead in the regular season too, just not by much - but I think the more important point is that what I see when I look at that team data is an ensemble cast doing well all 48 minutes, and with many players deserving high praise.

My main objection is not that Booker specifically was underrated, but that people have been talking about the Suns as if Paul the one making everything happen simply because he showed up this year and the team had a bad overall record last year.

[Doctor MJ]

There’s really no argument that Booker was the better or more impactful player for the Suns during the regular season - even if you somehow didn’t watch the Suns all year.

Basically agreed with this. Booker did not have a very good RS, I don't think he has any real argument over CP3 for RS MVP.

Now in the playoffs, sure, he and Ayton have played like their stars.

Given that Booker scored 25 PPG in the regular season, he very clearly played with the primacy of a star all season. Frankly it's been pretty mind-blowing to me seeing people not talk about him. Really goes to show how folks want to focus on a single narrative. If the milk of the Paul storyline had been just a touch more sour, there would have been frequent talk about Booker as a minor MVP candidate even if nothing changed about his actual effectiveness.

No doubt though that Booker & Ayton shined in the 1st round. Booker-Ayton-Bridges are clearly the core the Suns should build around.

[ShotCreator]

LOL Cp3 has 0 chance to be in Poy discussion. He was great in game 4 which was prolly the most important game of the series but hes played some of the worst ball ever for a top player in the other games. Obviously hes hurt but you still have to go by what hes done on the court. Booker is clearly Phoenixs best player now.

This is like Miami in 05.

Shaq and Cp3 were the regular season Mvp candidates and best players in the regular season but in the playoffs the young guards in Wade and Booker took the reigns.

In a career full of strange moments and series this might be the strangest for Cp3. He pulls out the win against the defending champs as the series underdogs..... but his backup Cam Payne was better than him for the series and Phoenixs best Pg for the series. Cp3 had an alltime bad series. La was flatout defending him like Rondo offball. He was seeing 20ft of space and not being guarded

The few series where he played like peak LeBron in losses get put in the dumpster so I expect this to ultimately get swept under the rug.

I will say, this was more Iguodala level series for him judging by impact stats. He played pretty damn good defense and still wasn’t a complete negative on offense.

But that’s just an angle to take. He’s clearly not the real Chris Paul anymore to me no matter what he does.

[falcolombardi]

i know not to take twitter takes seriously bit it seems the conclusion everyone is drawing right now is thst last year best teams losing early proves the bubble was worthless and their succes too

yet not applying the same logic to this one which also was extremely inusual (compressed schedule and no off season for last year top teams)

this will give a lot of ammo to fans of asterisking seasons

[CBA]

Given that Booker scored 25 PPG in the regular season, he very clearly played with the primacy of a star all season. Frankly it's been pretty mind-blowing to me seeing people not talk about him. Really goes to show how folks want to focus on a single narrative. If the milk of the Paul storyline had been just a touch more sour, there would have been frequent talk about Booker as a minor MVP candidate even if nothing changed about his actual effectiveness.

No doubt though that Booker & Ayton shined in the 1st round. Booker-Ayton-Bridges are clearly the core the Suns should build around.

I’m actually unaccustomed to anyone on this forum overrating volume scoring on league average efficiency; it’s been awhile. Especially a poster who clearly believes Gobert was a top player this year when he ironically played next to a superior version of Booker.

Booker had an excellent Game 6 against an injured and overmatched Lakers squad. But he was inferior to CP3 on both of ends of the floor in the regular season. No need to pretend the last game we watched is the most illustrative of reality.

[Doctor MJ]

Given that Booker scored 25 PPG in the regular season, he very clearly played with the primacy of a star all season. Frankly it's been pretty mind-blowing to me seeing people not talk about him. Really goes to show how folks want to focus on a single narrative. If the milk of the Paul storyline had been just a touch more sour, there would have been frequent talk about Booker as a minor MVP candidate even if nothing changed about his actual effectiveness.

No doubt though that Booker & Ayton shined in the 1st round. Booker-Ayton-Bridges are clearly the core the Suns should build around.

I’m actually unaccustomed to anyone on this forum overrating volume scoring on league average efficiency; it’s been awhile. Especially a poster who clearly believes Gobert was a top player this year when he ironically played next to a superior version of Booker.

Booker had an excellent Game 6 against an injured and overmatched Lakers squad. But he was inferior to CP3 on both of ends of the floor in the regular season. No need to pretend the last game we watched is the most illustrative of reality.

Are you confusing me saying "the primacy of a star" for a statement of how effective he was in that role? You're expressing surprise at my opinion in a post where I was trying to make clear that I was talking about something other than my opinion.

But there's something else I really need to address here. People are so quick to talk about Paul turning a crap team into a contender that they don't look carefully at what changed.

Booker was considerably more efficient last year. What changed? Well for one, he got less FTAs this year. Why? Consider:

'19-20: Suns 5th in FT/FGA
'20-21: Suns 27th in FT/FGA

We're not talking about Booker randomly playing "worse", we're talking about a different offensive approach putting the ball in Paul's hands. That approach, as it always does with Paul, slows down the game and reduces turnovers, but it tends to comes with cost.

I don't want to overstate the scale of the cost, but let's just say that given that Booker last year proved he could be play alpha on a team with a 116+ ORtg last year while putting up a 150+ TS Add, maybe don't be so dramatic knocking Booker's more average efficiency with Paul given that Paul can do that to a teammate and Booker on the court this year had a 120+ ORtg and a net on/off ORtg of 7+ and Paul's ORtg was less and the team put up a 117+ ORtg when Paul was on the bench.

Now here's something I'll say: In the game tonight, Monty Williams' apparent game plan was perfect: Use Booker to get the lead, use Paul run out the game. Letting Booker run wild the entire game probably would have worked just fine too, but there's no doubt he plays a higher risk game than Paul does (as does every other star this side of John Stockton), and so if you want the guy who is going to minimize the chance at the opponent making a run, Paul's your man.

Long-term, I think they need to take the training wheels off Booker, but there's no doubt that Paul is helping solidify what they're doing this year.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't have CP3 in my POY rankings nor ever considered him but

but if GSP agrees with you - you almost certainly did make a hot take. That's his gimmick lol.

[PaulieWal]

Man oh man, if the Clippers lose tomorrow, how bad the they **** up tanking to get away from the Lakers in round 1?