PG: Knicks-Hawks aka 1,2,3,Cancun! (Hawks win series 4-1)

[louisorr]

one thing that stood out to me was the Hawks seemed to be able to crash the offensive glass AND get back in time to limit transition offense. while we backpedaled immediately after every shot, never going after offensive boards. that bothered me especially considering 4 or 5 extra possessions a game especially when many shots are threes are probably worth more points than 4 or 5 runouts.

The Knicks had 59 Offensive rebounds, the Hawks 40 Offensive rebounds over the series. I didn't look at the percentages - maybe the Knicks missed many more shots. But it's probably an illusion to think the Hawks did better on the O-boards than the Knicks?

wow, thats surprising. I guess I noticed the ones that ended in a Bogdanovic dagger more than the others.

[prophet_of_rage]

I don’t think we knew the Hawks were this good going into the series. Their defense exposed us.

Their defence is on Nate. Good for him. The fact that Thibs couldn't combat the relatively simply team D the Hawks played against Randle (and RJ) over 5 games in 12 days is 80%+ on Thibs. (I'll leave an overestimated 20% for Randle - harsh on RJ.) Maybe he was talking in interviews and recorded time-outs about moving the ball more and taking shots in the moment, but he couldn't communicate a strategy (or even tactics) to the team. Sad.

Randle, RJ and Rose all played far too many minutes in season and in the off season. IQ, Obi and Frank far too few.

Obviously the failure to grasp the nettle with Payton in early March, and then, again, once Rose was playing more than 50% of the PG minutes, was one of the key mistakes Thibs made.

Tom and the coaching staff deserve some of the blame for not gameplanning but we also have to consider that the Knicks dont have a proper pg which is essentially half the battle.

How did they not gameplan? They did. It didn't work.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[prophet_of_rage]

one thing that stood out to me was the Hawks seemed to be able to crash the offensive glass AND get back in time to limit transition offense. while we backpedaled immediately after every shot, never going after offensive boards. that bothered me especially considering 4 or 5 extra possessions a game especially when many shots are threes are probably worth more points than 4 or 5 runouts.

The Hawks are big. Capela is what 6'11, Collins 6'10, Gallinari 6'10, Bogdonovic 6'7. And then Hunter 6'9. We can't fight them for boards.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Knick4Real]

Don’t believe we had a whole season of Knicks fans apologizing to Randle for treating him bad last season, and that he was our “savior” and as soon as he has a bad 2 weeks everyone is all back to wanting to ship him out.

Either root for the man or don’t, but don’t flip flop

Big facts

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

[HarthorneWingo]

one thing that stood out to me was the Hawks seemed to be able to crash the offensive glass AND get back in time to limit transition offense. while we backpedaled immediately after every shot, never going after offensive boards. that bothered me especially considering 4 or 5 extra possessions a game especially when many shots are threes are probably worth more points than 4 or 5 runouts.

The Knicks had 59 Offensive rebounds, the Hawks 40 Offensive rebounds over the series. I didn't look at the percentages - maybe the Knicks missed many more shots. But it's probably an illusion to think the Hawks did better on the O-boards than the Knicks?

wow, thats surprising. I guess I noticed the ones that ended in a Bogdanovic dagger more than the others.

@ B8Ro9p8*&)@!*T129%ckl,

Do you know what the conversion %s, respectively, on the ORB were?

[HarthorneWingo]

Their defence is on Nate. Good for him. The fact that Thibs couldn't combat the relatively simply team D the Hawks played against Randle (and RJ) over 5 games in 12 days is 80%+ on Thibs. (I'll leave an overestimated 20% for Randle - harsh on RJ.) Maybe he was talking in interviews and recorded time-outs about moving the ball more and taking shots in the moment, but he couldn't communicate a strategy (or even tactics) to the team. Sad.

Randle, RJ and Rose all played far too many minutes in season and in the off season. IQ, Obi and Frank far too few.

Obviously the failure to grasp the nettle with Payton in early March, and then, again, once Rose was playing more than 50% of the PG minutes, was one of the key mistakes Thibs made.

Tom and the coaching staff deserve some of the blame for not gameplanning but we also have to consider that the Knicks dont have a proper pg which is essentially half the battle.

How did they not gameplan? They did. It didn't work.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

I still think our team was mentally and physically drained from the regular season.

[KnicksGadfly]

Don’t believe we had a whole season of Knicks fans apologizing to Randle for treating him bad last season, and that he was our “savior” and as soon as he has a bad 2 weeks everyone is all back to wanting to ship him out.

Either root for the man or don’t, but don’t flip flop

Big facts

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

Yah. I hated Randle before this season but the man changed my mind this season when he came ready to play all star basketball, and tbh, do what Melo was never willing to do. He got shut down by a Hawks team that was game-planning him. It happens. It’s on everyone to fix this.

Randle has to improve and I’m sure he will.
Thibs has to get Randle free and maybe control his minutes better so he’s fresher for the postseason.
FO needs to get more talent.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Big facts

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

Yah. I hated Randle before this season but the man changed my mind this season when he came ready to play all star basketball, and tbh, do what Melo was never willing to do. He got shut down by a Hawks team that was game-planning him. It happens. It’s on everyone to fix this.

Randle has to improve and I’m sure he will.
Thibs has to get Randle free and maybe control his minutes better so he’s fresher for the postseason.
FO needs to get more talent.

It was a brutal series that exposed a lot of flaws for Randle and the entire team, but given how much Randle improved and how good he was during the regular season I wouldnt bet against him at this point. He put in a lot of work and learned from his mistakes, so hopefully he can keep doing that and come back better from this. No doubt it was a disappointing series especially for Randle, but reality hit that we werent ready and on the same level.

[3toheadmelo]

Don’t believe we had a whole season of Knicks fans apologizing to Randle for treating him bad last season, and that he was our “savior” and as soon as he has a bad 2 weeks everyone is all back to wanting to ship him out.

Either root for the man or don’t, but don’t flip flop

Big facts

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

Fans like you are the worst. Don’t act like you were a day 1 supporter when he plays good then want to ship him out the next game he plays bad. That’s fake as hell.

[BugginOut]

Don’t believe we had a whole season of Knicks fans apologizing to Randle for treating him bad last season, and that he was our “savior” and as soon as he has a bad 2 weeks everyone is all back to wanting to ship him out.

Either root for the man or don’t, but don’t flip flop

Big facts

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

It makes a lot of sense. You are being over-reactionary as a fan instead of thinking critically how to manage a team. If it was up to you Obi would have been trade at the deadline and Randle would be traded this off-season.

Obi was bad, but it still would be dumb to give up on a rookie after 12 games. Obi still had flashes and most rookies suck coming into the league (i.e Trae Young) it was obvious that he was going to get better.

This doesn’t mean you have to have blind faith. Elfrid Payton clearly sucks and should be shipped out, even Randle last year showed nothing that he could become this level of player, so to want him gone then made sense.

But after Randle made All-NBA and won MIP to turn on him is dumb. We all knew he was a 2nd option on a good team all season. Because he was bad in 5 games doesn’t tell me much, cause it can be due to a lot of factors. It’s also likely Randle comes back better and performs well in the playoffs next year. So to say he sucks now and then to switch when he inevitably performs better next season is flip flopping.

[robillionaire]

Don’t believe we had a whole season of Knicks fans apologizing to Randle for treating him bad last season, and that he was our “savior” and as soon as he has a bad 2 weeks everyone is all back to wanting to ship him out.

Either root for the man or don’t, but don’t flip flop

Big facts

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

people, especially sports fans, and ESPECIALLY knicks fans, tend to see things only in one extreme or the other, either he sucks and we have to trade him immediately or he's a superstar franchise cornerstone and we have to give him the supermax, there seems to be no real "in-between" with players anymore and that's kinda how I see randle, he is a very talented player who has flaws, most people underrated him in year 1 and most people probably overrated him in year 2. also we all want to be right about our hot takes for whatever reason, so we get extra good boy points on real gm. but to go from "he sucks and we should trade him for Batum" to "he is a franchise cornerstone" to "he had a bad 5 game stretch we should waive him" is just a wild fluctuation of opinion on behalf of our fanbase that we should try to be a little more critical about

[robillionaire]

Big facts

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

even Randle last year showed nothing that he could become this level of player, so to want him gone then made sense.

I don't even agree with that, he had a tough season but he did have some really good games down the stretch last year and also the team was turning it around post-fizdale and winning a few games. I still wouldn't have predicted a most improved player award or even an all-star appearance but he wasn't nearly as bad as people were suggesting last year who wanted to trade him away for nothing so Obi could start or who suggested all we had to do was get through this season and decline his option and pay him 4 million and he would be gone. That was never going to happen and it was an overreaction

[BugginOut]

This makes ZERO sense.

Nobody has to pick a side. Every fan has a right to an opinion based on performance.

For example, when Obi came into the league he played like a deer in headlights -- and the fans were down on him. However, he upped his game in the final weeks of the season and fans recognized him for the improvement. There was no "flip-flop." Opinions changed, and rightly so.

The point is, I don't have to pick to "like" someone with no chance of ever changing my mind if their game slacks off. That's called blind fandom and I'll have none of it. I will applaud a player if he shows me something, not because I "decided" to root for him and must stick to that opinion whether he's good or bad. That would be

Julius was the MIP during the regular season -- then arrived at the playoffs as if he were a blind one-armed man on crutches who had never played the game. It was pathetic. One off game is understandable. Two off-games is not great on the pro level, but tolerable. FIVE bad games in a row in the biggest games of your career is inexcusable. No team would tolerate that from their "franchise" player -- and nor should they.

If you believe fans should never flip-flop their support of a player, then a player should never flip-flop showing up to a game when the team and the entire city are counting on them and needs them most.

even Randle last year showed nothing that he could become this level of player, so to want him gone then made sense.

I don't even agree with that, he had a tough season but he did have some really good games down the stretch last year and also the team was turning it around post-fizdale and winning a few games. I still wouldn't have predicted a most improved player award or even an all-star appearance but he wasn't nearly as bad as people were suggesting last year who wanted to trade him away for nothing so Obi could start or who suggested all we had to do was get through this season and decline his option and pay him 4 million and he would be gone. That was never going to happen and it was an overreaction

He wasn’t bad, but he was in the Tim Hardaway tier. A good player as a role player, but bad as a first option. It made sense if fans wanted to flip him for a pick, because it seemed we were far from competing.

No one expected him to make a leap from that to All-NBA

[robillionaire]

even Randle last year showed nothing that he could become this level of player, so to want him gone then made sense.

I don't even agree with that, he had a tough season but he did have some really good games down the stretch last year and also the team was turning it around post-fizdale and winning a few games. I still wouldn't have predicted a most improved player award or even an all-star appearance but he wasn't nearly as bad as people were suggesting last year who wanted to trade him away for nothing so Obi could start or who suggested all we had to do was get through this season and decline his option and pay him 4 million and he would be gone. That was never going to happen and it was an overreaction

He wasn’t bad, but he was in the Tim Hardaway tier. A good player as a role player, but bad as a first option. It made sense if fans wanted to flip him for a pick, because it seemed we were far from competing.

No one expected him to make a leap from that to All-NBA

That's probably also another good example because even Tammy was treated too harshly by the fanbase for not being able to carry the team. He's not an all-star but has been a solid role player on dallas this year. we probably could have used him.

[Richard4444]

It was a win-now trade which was supposed to propel them from the play-in zone into the playoffs so it would appease Zach Lavine and not only did it not do that but they had an even worse win percentage after the trade? Something just doesn't add up there. Now they are possibly going to lose out on a valuable 8th pick, which they probably assumed would be a mid-1st rounder when they made the trade. Seems like a home run for Orlando to me. They sent the 2023 first, wendell carter and otto porter as well! I could see taking a wait and see approach but seeing as how they didn't get their intended result and were actually worse after the trade I'm not sure how you can call it a home run for the bulls. Vucevic is already about to turn 31 and hit the downside of his career.

Otto Porter hardly ever plays due to injuries, and Wendell Carter is a reserve big at best in the league. I've watched him his whole career. He's not a bust, but he's not going to be making any all-stars games any time soon. The only thing that matters in that trade is this year's first, which the Bulls could still keep if they get really lucky with the ping pong balls. Even if they don't, you gave up a player who is injured half the time (and not really that good when not), a reserve big, and 2 firsts. The Bulls also had a lot of injuries down the stretch, including Lavine missing more than 10 games (I think) because of Covid. The have a lot of talent on that squad, and should be much better next year after a full offseason of preparation to figure out how to best play Lavine and Vuc together. They also have Lauri who is pretty damn good, and a very young Patrick Williams. Don't count that trade as a bust just yet.

Lauri is a free agent and I don’t think he’s coming back btw

Lauri is like WCJr. Injured half of the time and not so good when he plays. He is a soft 7footer that likes to stay far from the rim just like KP. He is an awful fit for Vuc.

[dakomish23]

We’ll be back. Still the most fun season I’ve had in years

Yep. My only wish is that Mitch got in on the action, but we probably aren't having this conversation yet if he had

[BugginOut]

Read on Twitter

Send Prayers to Reggie today

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

The Knicks had 59 Offensive rebounds, the Hawks 40 Offensive rebounds over the series. I didn't look at the percentages - maybe the Knicks missed many more shots. But it's probably an illusion to think the Hawks did better on the O-boards than the Knicks?

wow, thats surprising. I guess I noticed the ones that ended in a Bogdanovic dagger more than the others.

@ B8Ro9p8*&)@!*T129%ckl,

Do you know what the conversion %s, respectively, on the ORB were?

I took the original stat from basketball-reference.

But I've just been and combed through the play-by-play and come up with some slightly different numbers. I ignore rebounds of shots at the end of quarters (1 sec or less left) and on shot clock violation misses. Make is a made basket before end of possession - or get to the free throw line. (In fact no one missed 2 fts after an off reb, so make always meant increase in pts total.) I think the discrepancy may be that bbref only includes player-attributed rebounds, whereas the play-by-play gives some "team" rebounds. (Lots of those are where a player on D fouls in the rebounding melee after a miss, but not all of them.)

However, the proportions are almost identical with the Knicks obtaining 50% more off reb than the Hawks by either method: we get Knicks with a total of 71 off reb and Hawks with 48 off reb by this method (as opposed to 59-40 by bball-ref)

Knicks made, Knicks missed, Hawks made, Hawks missed. By games and then the totals

Code: Select all

G, K+, K-, H+, H-
1,  9,  9,  5,  3
2,  7, 10,  2,  5
3,  4,  9,  3,  2
4,  4,  2,  1,  9
5,  9,  8, 10,  8

T, 33, 38, 21, 27


The Knicks conversion is thus 46.5% and the Hawks was 43.75%

I didn't do separate counts for 2s, 3s and FTs. But the conversion efficiency can't really be that much different given the Hawks low (comparatively) totals.

I didn't count rebound opportunities. However, you can make a rough estimate from the total number of missed shots.

Again using bbref (but this time there shouldn't be such discrepancy, I believe), the Knicks missed 240 shots (over the whole series) whilst the Hawks missed 236.

That's not an exact reflection of rebound opportunities: air-balls at the shot clock/shots at the End of Quarters are missed shots with no rebound opportunity, and missed last free throws are rebound opportunities without a missed shot. Nevertheless, it's a decent estimate - and the take home is that both teams had essentially identical numbers of rebound opportunities.

[HarthorneWingo]

I don't even agree with that, he had a tough season but he did have some really good games down the stretch last year and also the team was turning it around post-fizdale and winning a few games. I still wouldn't have predicted a most improved player award or even an all-star appearance but he wasn't nearly as bad as people were suggesting last year who wanted to trade him away for nothing so Obi could start or who suggested all we had to do was get through this season and decline his option and pay him 4 million and he would be gone. That was never going to happen and it was an overreaction

He wasn’t bad, but he was in the Tim Hardaway tier. A good player as a role player, but bad as a first option. It made sense if fans wanted to flip him for a pick, because it seemed we were far from competing.

No one expected him to make a leap from that to All-NBA

That's probably also another good example because even Tammy was treated too harshly by the fanbase for not being able to carry the team. He's not an all-star but has been a solid role player on dallas this year. we probably could have used him.

Isn't THJ a FA this summer?

[Rasho Brezec]

Tom Thibodeau really just a poor man's Nate McMillan.