Official Trade Thread - Part XLI

[nate33]

Continued from here

[NatP4]

I would do that for the 22nd pick but Kuzma is absolutely terrible. I don’t think he belongs in the NBA even.

But 22nd pick is one of Jared Butler, Neemius Queta, or Chris Duarte!

[payitforward]

I'm not going to argue w/ wall glizzy about Bryant vs. e.g. Vucevic. The game's not worth the candle.

But I will make one comment -- there's a common confusion between names & numbers. I loved Vucevic in the 2011 draft, & he had some terrific years in the league. But, I'm going to wager that wall glizzy is unaware of how much Vucevic has declined in recent years.

I'm betting he doesn't know that Vucevic shot 33.9% on 3's in 2019-20 -- a % that is the equivalent of 50.8% on 2-pointers. On average that year, NBA Centers shot the 2 at 58.2% -- so I'm guessing opposing teams were delighted for Vucevic to take as large a number of 3-pt. attempts as he liked that year.

In fact, on the 24.8 FGAs Vucevic logged per 48 minutes that year, he produced 26 points. OTOH, on the 17.5 FGAs Bryant took in that same stretch, he produced 22 points.

In other words, using 7.3 extra possessions, Vucevic produced 4 more points.

Now, let me ask you: if you are a coach, which would you prefer your team to have 4 extra points or 7.3 extra possessions of the ball. I guess that would depend on whether your team averages more than .55 points per possession, wouldn't it? You know any NBA teams that don't average more than that? They average a lot more than that, don't they?

Of course, you can make up at least some of that mammoth gap in productivity if you get to the line more frequently, right? Only Vucevic got to the line less frequently than Bryant, so in fact FTAs only widened the gap.

Now, Vucevic was a better defensive rebounder than Bryant. But, then again, Bryant was a better offensive rebounder than Vucevic.

& we mustn't forget that Vucevic got almost 50% more assists than Bryant. That's important.Yet Bryant blocked almost twice as many shots as Vucevic. I don't think we should forget that either, do you?

And, anyway, it would be asking a lot for Vucevic to overcome Bryant's 64.9 TS% with his 54.9 TS%

LOL

Btw, as much as Vucevic declined in 2019-20, he declined even more this year. But, of course Bryant was injured this year, so no comparison is possible.

Oh, & I forgot one other thing: that year we were just looking at, 2019-20? Do you recall how much Vucevic made that year? I do: $28m. How about Bryant? $8m.

[payitforward]

You know... sometimes I'm so silly. Sometimes I belabor points that nobody cares about. Really, I should just have asked one question of Wall Glizzy. &, really, I should have left names out of it -- names have so little meaning compared to numbers.

So I will:

Tell me Wall Glizzy, names aside, would you rather have a Center who puts up the numbers Bryant put up in '19-20, & pay him $8m?

Or would you rather have a Center who puts up the numbers Vucevic put up that year & pay him $28m.

Straight up -- you're a GM: which would you prefer if you could only have one (keeping mind that you have 14 other guys to pay)?

[Ruzious]

Pif, I love Bryant, and I'm not sure what led up to your thesis, but you left out something - Bryant's played 99 games in 4 seasons and has averaged just 20.9 minutes a game. He's got nowhere near the body of work that Vucevic has. Vuc's numbers are much more meaningful because he played 33.5 minutes a game for 70 games (which is a typical season for him), and he has NOT declined. Bryant played 10 games. For their total production, the 28m to 8m ratio... who got the better bargain?

Having said that, I hope Bryant stays with Washington for a lot more years. When healthy, he's a heckuva player, and he can get even better.

[Illuminaire]

I can't switch teams like it looks like one of our former posters did.

Hey man. Saw your post. Not sure if you were talking about me, or another poster, but where you are is exactly where I was about 3-4 years ago. 30+ years of rooting for a franchise that only knew how to make me hurt. No confidence in ownership to ever get things right. And at the time, EG was somehow still at the helm.

I took two years off. It was weird watching basketball and not rooting for anyone. I tried to follow individuals and young teams, but it was an awkward, disconnected way of watching the sport. I still enjoyed the playoffs, but the regular season almost stopped existing.

After getting that separation from the Wiz, I decided it was time to follow a new team. Because I only know unhealthy sports relationships, I attached myself to Zion's dangerously fragile knees. So when NO picked him, that was my team. Heaven help me.

This season was good. I watched about 30-35 Pels games, and always caught the box scores for ones I missed. Got in deep with people about how sneaky bad Brandon Ingram is as a fit with Williamson. Breathed a deep sigh of relief as we came up short of the play-in, because we were NOT ready. And most importantly... found myself naturally using that language as the season wrapped up. "We." "Us". I'd finally moved on.

Around that time I came back here to talk b-ball because, unfortunately, the NO board is emptier than Jordan Crawford's stats.

Sharing this not to tell you to do the same thing. We're all built differently. Tommy may even be a half-decent GM.

Sharing to let you know that if you do decide you need to make a change, there is daylight on the other side.

[Ruzious]

I can't switch teams like it looks like one of our former posters did.

Hey man. Saw your post. Not sure if you were talking about me, or another poster, but where you are is exactly where I was about 3-4 years ago. 30+ years of rooting for a franchise that only knew how to make me hurt. No confidence in ownership to ever get things right. And at the time, EG was somehow still at the helm.

I took two years off. It was weird watching basketball and not rooting for anyone. I tried to follow individuals and young teams, but it was an awkward, disconnected way of watching the sport. I still enjoyed the playoffs, but the regular season almost stopped existing.

After getting that separation from the Wiz, I decided it was time to follow a new team. Because I only know unhealthy sports relationships, I attached myself to Zion's dangerously fragile knees. So when NO picked him, that was my team. Heaven help me.

This season was good. I watched about 30-35 Pels games, and always caught the box scores for ones I missed. Got in deep with people about how sneaky bad Brandon Ingram is as a fit with Williamson. Breathed a deep sigh of relief as we came up short of the play-in, because we were NOT ready. And most importantly... found myself naturally using that language as the season wrapped up. "We." "Us". I'd finally moved on.

Around that time I came back here to talk b-ball because, unfortunately, the NO board is emptier than Jordan Crawford's stats.

Sharing this not to tell you to do the same thing. We're all built differently. Tommy may even be a half-decent GM.

Sharing to let you know that if you do decide you need to make a change, there is daylight on the other side.

Right, there's no 1 right way to be a fan. And I'm happy with cheating - I have 2 teams that I root for - have since I was 9 years old - nobody told me the rules of fandom back then. And because the Bucks are doing great, it's really working out well this year - so far - though some years it's been double the frustration.

[DCZards]

I’m a homer. Can’t help it. Grew up in the NYC area rooting for the Knicks, Jets and Yankees.

Been in DC for more than 30 years. So now I’m a hardcore Zards, Nats and WFT fan...win, lose or draw.

[Dat2U]

I'm not going to argue w/ wall glizzy about Bryant vs. e.g. Vucevic. The game's not worth the candle.

But I will make one comment -- there's a common confusion between names & numbers. I loved Vucevic in the 2011 draft, & he had some terrific years in the league. But, I'm going to wager that wall glizzy is unaware of how much Vucevic has declined in recent years.

I'm betting he doesn't know that Vucevic shot 33.9% on 3's in 2019-20 -- a % that is the equivalent of 50.8% on 2-pointers. On average that year, NBA Centers shot the 2 at 58.2% -- so I'm guessing opposing teams were delighted for Vucevic to take as large a number of 3-pt. attempts as he liked that year.

In fact, on the 24.8 FGAs Vucevic logged per 48 minutes that year, he produced 26 points. OTOH, on the 17.5 FGAs Bryant took in that same stretch, he produced 22 points.

In other words, using 7.3 extra possessions, Vucevic produced 4 more points.

Now, let me ask you: if you are a coach, which would you prefer your team to have 4 extra points or 7.3 extra possessions of the ball. I guess that would depend on whether your team averages more than .55 points per possession, wouldn't it? You know any NBA teams that don't average more than that? They average a lot more than that, don't they?

Of course, you can make up at least some of that mammoth gap in productivity if you get to the line more frequently, right? Only Vucevic got to the line less frequently than Bryant, so in fact FTAs only widened the gap.

Now, Vucevic was a better defensive rebounder than Bryant. But, then again, Bryant was a better offensive rebounder than Vucevic.

& we mustn't forget that Vucevic got almost 50% more assists than Bryant. That's important.Yet Bryant blocked almost twice as many shots as Vucevic. I don't think we should forget that either, do you?

And, anyway, it would be asking a lot for Vucevic to overcome Bryant's 64.9 TS% with his 54.9 TS%

LOL

Btw, as much as Vucevic declined in 2019-20, he declined even more this year. But, of course Bryant was injured this year, so no comparison is possible.

Oh, & I forgot one other thing: that year we were just looking at, 2019-20? Do you recall how much Vucevic made that year? I do: $28m. How about Bryant? $8m.

Neither have major impact on winning despite the counting stats. Neither defends the paint or challenges shots exceptionally well. You know, the important stuff a C needs to do as the anchor of the D.

You could same thing about Towns. Difference is Towns has the offensive versatility to slide to the 4 where his poor defense is neutralized a bit and still excel offensively. Bryant & Vucevic have no capabilities of playing the 4.

You could also make that ridiculous argument about Bryant having a better season than Towns but he's certainly not the better player.

[wall_glizzy]

Pif, I love Bryant, and I'm not sure what led up to your thesis, but you left out something - Bryant's played 99 games in 4 seasons and has averaged just 20.9 minutes a game. He's got nowhere near the body of work that Vucevic has. Vuc's numbers are much more meaningful because he played 33.5 minutes a game for 70 games (which is a typical season for him), and he has NOT declined. Bryant played 10 games. For their total production, the 28m to 8m ratio... who got the better bargain?

Having said that, I hope Bryant stays with Washington for a lot more years. When healthy, he's a heckuva player, and he can get even better.

It was me contesting PIF's ideas that:
(1) Over the last three seasons, Thomas Bryant has been every bit as good as, and frequently better than, KAT and Vucevic,
(2) Bryant has some kind of floor-spacing effect that would allow him to not only function, but somehow improve our overall spacing in lineups alongside Westbrook and Gafford,

at the end of the previous trade thread.

Anyway, 2019-2020 was indeed a down year for Vucevic... followed by this year, which was something of a return to form. He shot 40% from three on 440 attempts (a little over 6 per game), rebounded significantly better than Bryant ever has, assisted about 20% of shots his teammates made while he was on the floor, was merely mediocre on defense rather than a total catastrophe, etc. He wasn't as efficient from a TS% perspective, of course, presumably because he used nearly twice as many of his team's possessions.

I like Bryant - I think the Gafford / Bryant tandem will be a blast to watch next year - and is contract is pretty solid for the role I envision him playing upon his return. But claiming he delivers value comparable to that of KAT or Vucevic... c'mon.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

I could see something like this happening....

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7430590

Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison, 1st to Sac for Barnes

[Ruzious]

I could see something like this happening....

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7430590

Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison, 1st to Sac for Barnes

Barnes is a good solid player, but as an addition designed to put us over the top... an uninspiring choice.

[DCZards]

I could see something like this happening....

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7430590

Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison, 1st to Sac for Barnes

Sorry...but that's a BAD trade for the Zards. I'd trade Bertans and Hutch for Barnes but no way am I including Deni and our first Rd pick. That's waaayyy too much for Harrison.

[verbal8]

I could see something like this happening....

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7430590

Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison, 1st to Sac for Barnes

Sorry...but that's a BAD trade for the Zards. I'd trade Bertans and Hutch for Barnes but no way am I including Deni and our first Rd pick. That's waaayyy too much for Harrison.

Yeah I think Bertans for Barnes is a very even trade. Barnes has the edge on defense and health, but Bertans has elite 3 point shooting.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

I could see something like this happening....

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7430590

Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison, 1st to Sac for Barnes

Sorry...but that's a BAD trade for the Zards. I'd trade Bertans and Hutch for Barnes but no way am I including Deni and our first Rd pick. That's waaayyy too much for Harrison.

Take out the 1st , sorry that was a mistake I meant to say our 1st OR Avdija....

Make it Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison.... and not that I necessarily recommend it, but I could see this being a trade, or something similar. I could definitely see Barnes as the type of player we would target is my bigger point.

[Dark Faze]

I could see something like this happening....

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7430590

Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison, 1st to Sac for Barnes

Sorry...but that's a BAD trade for the Zards. I'd trade Bertans and Hutch for Barnes but no way am I including Deni and our first Rd pick. That's waaayyy too much for Harrison.

Take out the 1st , sorry that was a mistake I meant to say our 1st OR Avdija....

Make it Avdija, Bertans, Hutchison.... and not that I necessarily recommend it, but I could see this being a trade, or something similar. I could definitely see Barnes as the type of player we would target is my bigger point.

I don't see how anyone could think Barnes would seriously impact our ability to win a playoff series against the top 3 teams in the East. I have serious doubts about how much he'd impact our regular season totals as well.

If you're putting Deni, Rui, or our first into the conversation, you've got to be talking about a serious difference maker. Quite frankly I don't think many, if any, of those guys are available for trade anyway.

[verbal8]

Other than the relatively obvious cap space from the NYK for Westbrook there aren't any real obvious deals.

I didn't see anything in the teams that are in the second round of the play-offs.

I think the loser of DAL/LAC considers a Westbrook trade.
DAL - Richardson/Kleber/filler
They would move Doncic to primarily SG. They probably can put enough shooting at other positions to live with Westbrook at PG.

LA Clippers Morris/Beverly/Rondo/filler
They are fully in win-now and may be disappointed with their Point Guard play if they lose in the first round. They would have to replace Morris, but they would have a third star.

The Lakers are likely to want to make an improvement, but have limited options.

LAL - Schroder(S&T)/filler
Schroder didn't do much this season - so a big one year deal could make a lot of sense. Sharing a backcourt with Beal could be a great way to showcase his potential. Technically this would have to be a 3 year deal with only the first year guarranteed.
Westbrook's 2 years on his contract likely mark the twilight of LeBron's prime. There is a lot of risks in acquiring Westbrook.

GSW - Wiggins/filler
Of course the hope for GSW is that Klay Thompson comes back strong and they have another run of the Splash brothers. Westbrook could be an insurance policy with Curry sliding to SG. They also can play 3 Guards if Thompson is healthy/productive. They may also see Westbrook as a piece in 2022-3(as an expiring) that could be moved in an "all-in deal" for another star.

CHI - Young/Satoransky/Aminu
Chicago is in position where they have little in future draft picks but have some young talent. They may be willing to roll the dice on Westbrook making them a play-off team.

BOS - Kemba Walker
CLE - Love/Filler
These could happen, but I don't see as strong incentive for either team.

OKC - Horford
I don't see Westbrook playing for OKC, but they might see him as more moveable than Horford. I don't see a strong incentive for the Wizards unless they have a use for the flexibility from reducing salary.

[nate33]

Other than the relatively obvious cap space from the NYK for Westbrook there aren't any real obvious deals.

Spoiler:

I didn't see anything in the teams that are in the second round of the play-offs.

I think the loser of DAL/LAC considers a Westbrook trade.
DAL - Richardson/Kleber/filler
They would move Doncic to primarily SG. They probably can put enough shooting at other positions to live with Westbrook at PG.

LA Clippers Morris/Beverly/Rondo/filler
They are fully in win-now and may be disappointed with their Point Guard play if they lose in the first round. They would have to replace Morris, but they would have a third star.

The Lakers are likely to want to make an improvement, but have limited options.

LAL - Schroder(S&T)/filler
Schroder didn't do much this season - so a big one year deal could make a lot of sense. Sharing a backcourt with Beal could be a great way to showcase his potential. Technically this would have to be a 3 year deal with only the first year guarranteed.
Westbrook's 2 years on his contract likely mark the twilight of LeBron's prime. There is a lot of risks in acquiring Westbrook.

GSW - Wiggins/filler
Of course the hope for GSW is that Klay Thompson comes back strong and they have another run of the Splash brothers. Westbrook could be an insurance policy with Curry sliding to SG. They also can play 3 Guards if Thompson is healthy/productive. They may also see Westbrook as a piece in 2022-3(as an expiring) that could be moved in an "all-in deal" for another star.

CHI - Young/Satoransky/Aminu
Chicago is in position where they have little in future draft picks but have some young talent. They may be willing to roll the dice on Westbrook making them a play-off team.

BOS - Kemba Walker
CLE - Love/Filler
These could happen, but I don't see as strong incentive for either team.

OKC - Horford
I don't see Westbrook playing for OKC, but they might see him as more moveable than Horford. I don't see a strong incentive for the Wizards unless they have a use for the flexibility from reducing salary.

I think the Dallas and GSW iterations have 0 chance of happening, but the others are plausible.

The Chicago one is one I hadn't considered. It makes pretty good sense for them.

[Dat2U]

Harrison Barnes feels like the type of guy Ernie would have went after. Not so sure about Shepp unless feels desperation to make an immediate move. No one would ever buy Barnes making the Wizards a contender. He probably solidifies a 45-48 win team but with the sound bytes they put out there... I assume they would aim higher.

[WallToWall]

I like Bryant - I think the Gafford / Bryant tandem will be a blast to watch next year - and is contract is pretty solid for the role I envision him playing upon his return. But claiming he delivers value comparable to that of KAT or Vucevic... c'mon.

I too cant wait to see the Gafford/Bryant tandem at C. I would also like to see the team experiment with Bryant at PF, under certain conditions. I do not think that Bryant or Gafford have the foot speed and quickness to stay in front of an above average PF, and would probably foul a lot under the circumstances. Maybe I am wrong, so I'd like to see if it is really the case. I would not like to see Bryant traded for Vuc.