2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3

[louisorr]

Draft Sharife and it's like adding 4 players. because Obi, Mitch and Knox all of a sudden have an improved skill set...running and dunking. it would change everything about how we play. move RJ to the backcourt and let IQ be like Lou Will, who he idolizes anyway. I take that gamble every time over some Swiss army knife Franz Wagner type.

[Richard4444]

Some of you are saying Ziaire Williams without realizing that Thibs would never play him and he'd never develop here.

This meme is bad & you should feel bad for repeating it.

Simply no part of it is true. Thibs had no qualms about giving young players big roles; RJ was 2nd on the team in minutes & Mitch was 3rd at the time of his injury (though Bullock eventually surpassed him). While also giving every young player on the squad a shot at securing a rotation spot, Frank & Knox just failed to do so. And kids can progress without getting massive PT as rookies, as we saw with Obi.

The Williams problem is not due to the fact he is a rookie. It's because he is raw and needs time to develop. He needs to gain strength and improve his shooting. Thibs is a win-now coach and only will give him minutes if he impacts on winning or he runs out of other options (I bet we will have plenty of options next season if we don't do big trades).

Moreover, we are supposed to be in a star hunt. We want a rookie that holds trade value to be package for a star. A raw rookie can be viewed as a bust.

[ENYK]

Some of you are saying Ziaire Williams without realizing that Thibs would never play him and he'd never develop here.

This meme is bad & you should feel bad for repeating it.

Simply no part of it is true. Thibs had no qualms about giving young players big roles; RJ was 2nd on the team in minutes & Mitch was 3rd at the time of his injury (though Bullock eventually surpassed him). While also giving every young player on the squad a shot at securing a rotation spot, Frank & Knox just failed to do so. And kids can progress without getting massive PT as rookies, as we saw with Obi.

The Williams problem is not due to the fact he is a rookie. It's because he is raw and needs time to develop. He needs to gain strength and improve his shooting. Thibs is a win-now coach and only will give him minutes if he impacts on winning or he runs out of other options (I bet we will have plenty of options next season if we don't do big trades).

Moreover, we are supposed to be in a star hunt. We want a rookie that holds trade value to be package for a star. A raw rookie can be viewed as a bust.

This is why I think the FO is going to package the picks to get a current player, or package picks and one of our young players to get a high enough lotto pick that can come in and contribute right away.

You're right, Thibs is not the coach for a player viewed as a "project" who has to grow into his body and is still learning the game.

[newyorker4ever]

https://theknickswall.com/knicks-2021-draft-profiles-miles-deuce-mcbride-two-way-game-radar/

West Virginia’s Deuce McBride offers pest-like defense with sharpshooting and shot-making. The Knicks should keep an eye on him during the draft process.


Miles “Deuce” McBride—a 20-year-old sophomore guard from West Virginia—is one of the best defensive prospects in the 2021 NBA Draft, should he choose to remain in the field. While the sophomore’s stock has been rising in the months since the Mountaineers’ second-round loss to Syracuse, there is still the possibility that he returns for his junior season.

As it stands, Deuce McBride is projected as a late first/early second-round draft pick. Having recently received an invite to the upcoming combine, it is likely that his performance there will impact his decision to remain in the draft pool.

McBride is a sturdy 6-foot-2, 200-pound guard that brings skill and tenacity to both sides of the ball. While most of the conversation surrounding the West Virginia prospect will be about his defense, there are many positives offensively as well.

[stuporman]

If any of Ziaire, Bouknight, Moody, Giddey or Kai Jones makes it to 19, them.

If not, then his team-mate Jared Butler, Florida's Tre Mann or Tennessee's Jared Springer are in the same tier as Mitchell for me. I can get preferring Mitchell, but I just don't see substantially more upside in him...like I do a Keon Johnson...nor is he significantly safer. So I feel like he's very likely to get over-drafted, and I wouldn't want to pay the price to be the team that does so.

I just think you should draft for what guys should be in their 3rd season & beyond, rather than what they should give you as rookies / sophomores.

So you think all those players will be just as good if not better than Mitchell?

Picking players what you imagine they will be in the 3rd season and beyond instead of picking players based on what they have demonstrated they can actually do not just 'potentially' maybe some day they might do is why the Knicks took Knox and Frank.

I'm not saying the Knicks should trade up though, it may cost too much for a question mark, there are no guarantees.

i think they are better prospects, but whether they end up better players in their primes is something that only time will tell. Never know who will stagnate before making good on their realistic potential due to environment, injuries, or simply growing complacent.

Bad scouts make bad picks whether they are picking for year 1 or for the future. Picking for the future is also how teams drafted Kawhi, Giannis, Paul George, Bam, etc. outside of the top 10. While the list of "NBA ready" busts is every bit as long as the list of busts who were drafted for the future.


Plus the warning signs were there with Knox, as he would check out at Kentucky and his drive/motor were questioned before the draft.

Wait.... Kawhi and PG weren't potential picks just because they weren't top 10. Just rattling off names of players who improved after college doesn't mean that they are examples of your notion that teams picked for the future. Obviously the best players in the league improved alot and added to their games after college and the ones that didn't are not.

Of course all players are picks for the future, no team picks a player thinking that they are a finished product coming out and what they are in the first and second season is all they will be. This narrative you are creating doesn't exist.

What I am saying is that there are players that demonstrate their skills sets in college and some that people imagine what they might be able to do some day. I look for the players that have more demonstration than imagination. Of course, the players that can join both of them by having a broad skill set coming in as well as an element of upside to their potential improvement is desirable.

There's nothing about Butler or Mann that says they have a significantly higher year 3 ceiling in them than Mitchell does. There's an erroneous concept that younger players have higher ceilings than older players because the latter have developed more already.

A player's 'ceiling' is based on each individual's circumstance not their age. An older prospect may be more developed coming out but that doesn't make their ceiling lower, just them a little closer to it maybe sometimes alot closer to it but their ceiling is their own based on their own circumstances, not an attribute of their age.

A younger prospect doesn't have a higher ceiling because they haven't developed as much, it's just further away because of the lack of development already achieved and there's no guarantee they will ever reach it. Most of their potential is in their physical attributes and hoping they will develop the skills they haven't demonstrated yet.

Undoubtedly, the player's that are the youngest, with the most demonstrated skill and promising physical attributes can be some of the most coveted prospects. Guys like Luka and LaMelo come to mind with their well developed games at a young age and there is still plenty to room for improvement.

There are fewer prospects that are young, highly skilled and productive as freshman that don't get attention from scouts so wind up not being taken in the lottery. If they are and don't there may be something else that suppresses their draft stock like physical attributes. small school/weak conference or other.

If you are trying to suggest that the prospects in this draft outside of the top half dozen or so down through the bottom of the first round are marginally separated in perceived potential so it isn't worth trading up for one at 10-15 then I may agree with that to a degree. The value would be in getting the one a team really wants before too late.

Mitchell has a huge hindrance to his draft stock in his age because if he were 20 instead he'd be compared to the top players in this draft as a prospect. Although this doesn't mean he has a limited ceiling with no more upside to fulfill. It also doesn't mean that most of the younger players taken after him have higher ceilings three years out.

I understand the idea that it's better to have multiple chances to find the draft gem but I also understand the concept of draft position so a team can get the guy they really like before another team does. So trading up may be suitable if the price is right but it doesn't guarantee anything and holding lots of later picks doesn't either.

[stuporman]

Read on Twitter

Jared Butler + Ziaire Williams in this mock. I like that one.

Then grab BJ Boston or Deuce McBride in the 2nd round.

Professional media outlet there with their simulated "Lottory".....

[G_K_F]

Some of you are saying Ziaire Williams without realizing that Thibs would never play him and he'd never develop here.

This meme is bad & you should feel bad for repeating it.

Simply no part of it is true. Thibs had no qualms about giving young players big roles; RJ was 2nd on the team in minutes & Mitch was 3rd at the time of his injury (though Bullock eventually surpassed him). While also giving every young player on the squad a shot at securing a rotation spot, Frank & Knox just failed to do so. And kids can progress without getting massive PT as rookies, as we saw with Obi.

This is not giving the full scope of the situation.

These guys played because there was nobody else better on the team.

Taj can't start and play 35 mpg and Barrett was never getting benched for Burks/Bullock.

The real estimate of his confidence in rookies was Obi's minutes and Elfrid usually getting more playing time than IQ.

Thibs traded young players for veterans in Minnesota, which wasn't long ago. He's not here to develop players. He's 62 years old, not 40. He's here to win games.

[cgf]

Some of you are saying Ziaire Williams without realizing that Thibs would never play him and he'd never develop here.

This meme is bad & you should feel bad for repeating it.

Simply no part of it is true. Thibs had no qualms about giving young players big roles; RJ was 2nd on the team in minutes & Mitch was 3rd at the time of his injury (though Bullock eventually surpassed him). While also giving every young player on the squad a shot at securing a rotation spot, Frank & Knox just failed to do so. And kids can progress without getting massive PT as rookies, as we saw with Obi.

The Williams problem is not due to the fact he is a rookie. It's because he is raw and needs time to develop. He needs to gain strength and improve his shooting. Thibs is a win-now coach and only will give him minutes if he impacts on winning or he runs out of other options (I bet we will have plenty of options next season if we don't do big trades).

Moreover, we are supposed to be in a star hunt. We want a rookie that holds trade value to be package for a star. A raw rookie can be viewed as a bust.

Being raw didn't stop Thibs from playing or the staff from developing Obi. So let's stop talking about what a "win-now coach" will do & let's talk about what Thibs has actually done.

[Richard4444]

This meme is bad & you should feel bad for repeating it.

Simply no part of it is true. Thibs had no qualms about giving young players big roles; RJ was 2nd on the team in minutes & Mitch was 3rd at the time of his injury (though Bullock eventually surpassed him). While also giving every young player on the squad a shot at securing a rotation spot, Frank & Knox just failed to do so. And kids can progress without getting massive PT as rookies, as we saw with Obi.

The Williams problem is not due to the fact he is a rookie. It's because he is raw and needs time to develop. He needs to gain strength and improve his shooting. Thibs is a win-now coach and only will give him minutes if he impacts on winning or he runs out of other options (I bet we will have plenty of options next season if we don't do big trades).

Moreover, we are supposed to be in a star hunt. We want a rookie that holds trade value to be package for a star. A raw rookie can be viewed as a bust.

Being raw didn't stop Thibs from playing or the staff from developing Obi. So let's stop talking about what a "win-now coach" will do & let's talk about what Thibs has actually done.

1) Obi was given barely 12 minutes a game.

2) Obi is a 23 years old player, who is psychologically mature for a rookie, and already pretty strong. Moreover, he was draft number 8 and was a favorite to be rookie of the year. There was a great expectation to see him in the court.

[WargamesX]

The Williams problem is not due to the fact he is a rookie. It's because he is raw and needs time to develop. He needs to gain strength and improve his shooting. Thibs is a win-now coach and only will give him minutes if he impacts on winning or he runs out of other options (I bet we will have plenty of options next season if we don't do big trades).

Moreover, we are supposed to be in a star hunt. We want a rookie that holds trade value to be package for a star. A raw rookie can be viewed as a bust.

Being raw didn't stop Thibs from playing or the staff from developing Obi. So let's stop talking about what a "win-now coach" will do & let's talk about what Thibs has actually done.

1) Obi was given barely 12 minutes a game.

2) Obi is a 23 years old player, who is psychologically mature for a rookie, and already pretty strong. Moreover, he was draft number 8 and was a favorite to be rookie of the year. There was a great expectation to see him in the court.

Obi isn't raw either. His biggest issue wasn't that he was raw skillwise. It was that he physically wasn't able to compete with NBA players due to strength and conditioning, but as we saw through the season he got stronger and played better. I expect him to have a better season next year.

[sol537]

Gimme Butler and Juzang.

[DowNY]

James Bouknight
Corey Kispert
Sharife Cooper
Ayo Donsumo
Bones Hyland
Davion Mitchell

1 of those guys please

[newyorker4ever]

I really would like to get Duece with one of the first rounders, shyt i'd like to get him with that #32 pick but don't think he'll make it that far and wouldn't take the chance that he will cause i see him as a M.Smart type player on defense that could have a better offensive game.

[HEZI]

JT Thor's stock seems to be rising. He's a very interesting prospect. Might be a couple years away from contributing but he's got the tools to become one of the better players from the draft if his head is on straight and he's got the work ethic to keep improving.

Might be worth a gamble for the Knicks since our rotation is going to be short anyway and we can use the GLeague to develop a kid like Thor.

[RHODEY]

JT Thor's stock seems to be rising. He's a very interesting prospect. Might be a couple years away from contributing but he's got the tools to become one of the better players from the draft if his head is on straight and he's got the work ethic to keep improving.

Might be worth a gamble for the Knicks since our rotation is going to be short anyway and we can use the GLeague to develop a kid like Thor.

Intriguing...that jumper looks like it'll translate immediately

Watch on YouTube

[Marty McFly]

Read on Twitter

Jared Butler + Ziaire Williams in this mock. I like that one.

Then grab BJ Boston or Deuce McBride in the 2nd round.

If Cavs win the lotto no one will convince me that Dan Gilbert doesn't have a file of on every single NBA team owner, ala Batman with the justice league.

[HEZI]

JT Thor's stock seems to be rising. He's a very interesting prospect. Might be a couple years away from contributing but he's got the tools to become one of the better players from the draft if his head is on straight and he's got the work ethic to keep improving.

Might be worth a gamble for the Knicks since our rotation is going to be short anyway and we can use the GLeague to develop a kid like Thor.

Intriguing...that jumper looks like it'll translate immediately

Watch on YouTube

Jumper looks good but the rest of his game looks like it still has ways to go. Good solid foundation in terms of size, mobility, touch.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

JT Thor's stock seems to be rising. He's a very interesting prospect. Might be a couple years away from contributing but he's got the tools to become one of the better players from the draft if his head is on straight and he's got the work ethic to keep improving.

Might be worth a gamble for the Knicks since our rotation is going to be short anyway and we can use the GLeague to develop a kid like Thor.

Intriguing...that jumper looks like it'll translate immediately

Watch on YouTube

Jumper looks good but the rest of his game looks like it still has ways to go. Good solid foundation in terms of size, mobility, touch.

What is he at the next level, a 4? Would your long term idea be to play him and Obi together, and let him take the better offensive player on defense, sort of like the Nuggets with Gordon & Porter?

[DowNY]

I’m hoping that Thunder pick falls in the 7-10 range and they end up with a top 5 pick, so they don’t feel pressured to it on their own pick. Lol

That why we can try to trade up with them and take that Horford contract off their hands.

[HEZI]

Intriguing...that jumper looks like it'll translate immediately

Watch on YouTube

Jumper looks good but the rest of his game looks like it still has ways to go. Good solid foundation in terms of size, mobility, touch.

What is he at the next level, a 4? Would your long term idea be to play him and Obi together, and let him take the better offensive player on defense, sort of like the Nuggets with Gordon & Porter?

I mean it really depends on the plan. If they plan on keeping all 3 picks then you can afford to burn one on a long term project so rotation and fit for next season really won't factor in. If you swing for the fences then you do it with long term potential in mind and let the rest work itself out later down the road. I highly doubt even if the Knicks do keep all 3 picks that they will all be rotation players next season. So taking a project and letting them develop in the GLeague, regardless of position, wouldn't be a bad way to use at least one of those picks.