2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[70sFan]

And did any of us really think Giannis' was some traditional offensive superstar to begin with? His value is that he can physically overwhelm most teams on offense, is a great defender and teammate and they paid Middleton and traded for Jrue to help with halfcourt scoring against good teams.

He's far from the only MVP level player with this concern. KG made mid-range jumpers but he needed a perimeter closer too.

Then why his defense always regress in playoffs? Why can't he overwhelm even smaller teams physically? He's not GOAT-level defender and he's not elite first option on offense, with his style he's not good 2nd option either because he makes everyone adjust for him...

Middleton disappointed in Brooklyn series so far, but three years of underperforming are not on Khris.

[70sFan]

To be fair, Admiral also had glaring flaws in his game offensively.

Yeah, that was my point. It's so easy to limit an offense built around Robinson and Antetokounmpo. That famous WCF in 1995 was one of the better offensive performances from Robinson in his peak seasons...

DRob gets way too much blame for that series. He was being double- and triple-teamed all series long while on the other end, he was forced to guard Hakeem straight up (partially because Bob Hill was a bad coach, partially because Rodman was being a diva and refusing to guard Hakeem). And unlike Hakeem, DRob didn't have the shooters around him to punish the Rockets for double- and triple-teaming him. The Spurs made 23 three-pointers in the entire series. That's not even getting into how DRob didn't have a single teammate on the level of Clyde Drexler.

Giannis and the Bucks' meltdown last year against a mediocre Heat team was far worse.

Odinn just said that 1995 WCF was one of his best performances.

[70sFan]

I still hope that Milwaukee comes back, but it doesn't seem likely. I really hope that Giannis'll prove me wrong... believe me.

[falcolombardi]

on another news, what do you guys make of suns vs denver last night (and the seri3s)

i couldnt watch, looked at the boxscore and was impressed with the suns spurs-esque team scoring and how seemingly limited jokic was

thoughts by people who watched the game?

[MartinToVaught]

Yeah, that was my point. It's so easy to limit an offense built around Robinson and Antetokounmpo. That famous WCF in 1995 was one of the better offensive performances from Robinson in his peak seasons...

DRob gets way too much blame for that series. He was being double- and triple-teamed all series long while on the other end, he was forced to guard Hakeem straight up (partially because Bob Hill was a bad coach, partially because Rodman was being a diva and refusing to guard Hakeem). And unlike Hakeem, DRob didn't have the shooters around him to punish the Rockets for double- and triple-teaming him. The Spurs made 23 three-pointers in the entire series. That's not even getting into how DRob didn't have a single teammate on the level of Clyde Drexler.

Giannis and the Bucks' meltdown last year against a mediocre Heat team was far worse.

Odinn just said that 1995 WCF was one of his best performances.

Yes, but the context of the argument is that DRob was too limited to build around. My point is that the Spurs may have been able to make it work if they had followed the Rockets' playbook and surrounded him with shooters and versatile defenders instead of whatever they were trying to accomplish with his actual supporting cast.

I'm a lot less confident that you can build a viable supporting cast around Giannis without demoting him to the sidekick role.

[parsnips33]

Really impressive game from Ayton on both ends last night

[Doctor MJ]

So first we overracted to Kawhi. Now its Giannis. I hate the playoff knee-jerks so much.

And yes, I know Giannis has had offensive issues in the playoffs before. But he's been plenty good enough against Brooklyn. The issue has been Middleton who is supposed to be their Truth to Giannis' KG.

So you're saying it's perhaps too early to congratulation Tom Thibodeau on the winning the Mike Budenholzer Memorial Regular Season Coach of the Year award. I'll hold off.

[Dr Positivity]

And did any of us really think Giannis' was some traditional offensive superstar to begin with? His value is that he can physically overwhelm most teams on offense, is a great defender and teammate and they paid Middleton and traded for Jrue to help with halfcourt scoring against good teams.

He's far from the only MVP level player with this concern. KG made mid-range jumpers but he needed a perimeter closer too.

KG is flawed as a scorer in the playoffs however he is an elite level floor spacer and passer. I also think Giannis isn't in his class on defense. Giannis needs to be a much better scorer than KG cause outside of scoring their impact isn't close imo.

[Texas Chuck]

And did any of us really think Giannis' was some traditional offensive superstar to begin with? His value is that he can physically overwhelm most teams on offense, is a great defender and teammate and they paid Middleton and traded for Jrue to help with halfcourt scoring against good teams.

He's far from the only MVP level player with this concern. KG made mid-range jumpers but he needed a perimeter closer too.

KG is flawed as a scorer in the playoffs however he is an elite level floor spacer and passer. I also think Giannis isn't in his class on defense. Giannis needs to be a much better scorer than KG cause outside of scoring their impact isn't close imo.

Giannis is a much better scorer than KG so..... I mean his last 4 seasons he's a 28 ppg guy on well north of 60%TS. KG doesn't touch that at any point even in his peak season.

[parsnips33]

RealGM opinion of KD has seemingly never been lower, but wow the guy has been balling out this year. Very encouraging to see after some horrific injury luck

[Dr Positivity]

And did any of us really think Giannis' was some traditional offensive superstar to begin with? His value is that he can physically overwhelm most teams on offense, is a great defender and teammate and they paid Middleton and traded for Jrue to help with halfcourt scoring against good teams.

He's far from the only MVP level player with this concern. KG made mid-range jumpers but he needed a perimeter closer too.

KG is flawed as a scorer in the playoffs however he is an elite level floor spacer and passer. I also think Giannis isn't in his class on defense. Giannis needs to be a much better scorer than KG cause outside of scoring their impact isn't close imo.

Giannis is a much better scorer than KG so..... I mean his last 4 seasons he's a 28 ppg guy on well north of 60%TS. KG doesn't touch that at any point even in his peak season.

His actual scoring skillset is way more flawed than that though. Mediocre shooting, post game, surprisingly non existent as a pick and roll finisher (not sure if it's him or coaching). I see a worse halfcourt scorer than prime Blake although he gets transition points so I'm ok with calling him as good a scorer as Blake. I see KG around prime LMA level as a scorer.

Giannis might be best transition scoring big ever however clearly this doesn't translate as well to postseason.

[Dutchball97]

RealGM opinion of KD has seemingly never been lower, but wow the guy has been balling out this year. Very encouraging to see after some horrific injury luck

Huh in a poll asking who the best player remaining in the play-offs is KD is leading with only Kawhi and Jokic getting meaningful consideration. How is the RealGM opinion low on KD when half the people think he's the best player?

[Texas Chuck]

I mean.... its a 4 year sample size of elite production/efficiency. We lose the plot when we ignore that to focus on he's not a great shooter. You can say whatever you want to say, but the results are the results. His team wins a bunch of games. His numbers are terrific.

Yes, in the playoffs he's not Dirk or Lebron. Again though its a team game and Middleton is supposed to be that guy who helps in the half court when teams build the wall and he's been really bad costing them game 1. Giannis poor TS% against Miami cost them nothing yet we focus on that.

Anyway I'm spitting into the wind here. But it blows my mind how we just decide who is good and who isn't based on stylistic preferences and narratives more than we do what players are accomplishing and the positive impact they are having.

[parsnips33]

RealGM opinion of KD has seemingly never been lower, but wow the guy has been balling out this year. Very encouraging to see after some horrific injury luck

Huh in a poll asking who the best player remaining in the play-offs is KD is leading with only Kawhi and Jokic getting meaningful consideration. How is the RealGM opinion low on KD when half the people think he's the best player?

Didn't see that thread, and I'll be honest that I'm going fairly anecdotally, but it seems like the general view of KD on the board has soured as I've been here. I think some mix of disapproval at his free agent decisions and his high efficiency/scoring game seeming almost quaint in the era of Harden/Doncic all-in-one offensive hubs. There was a time where "smart basketball" was comparing KD favorably to Kobe and that's now turned to comparing Steph/Jokic/etc favorably to KD. I guess that's just how the game goes

[bondom34]

Anyway I'm spitting into the wind here. But it blows my mind how we just decide who is good and who isn't based on stylistic preferences and narratives more than we do what players are accomplishing and the positive impact they are having.

I have an entire diatribe on this topic or similar, but it's done every year based on variance and small sample size in the playoffs. Its seen in bias toward winning teams in POY stuff as well, but happens every year, everywhere. Its a bit frustrating and ultimately a lot or even most of playoff talk seems to end up in narratives and often avoids how players actually performed (I'm saying this having not really seen either game of this series much, but as a general point of contention with lines of thinking).

[70sFan]

Anyway I'm spitting into the wind here. But it blows my mind how we just decide who is good and who isn't based on stylistic preferences and narratives more than we do what players are accomplishing and the positive impact they are having.

I hope it's not related to my posts, because I don't do that. Nobody denies that Giannis is very good player and MVP candidate, but that's why I use high criteria for him. If you think that all of my criticism is about stylistic preferneces and narratives, then sorry but I strongly disagree with that.

[Texas Chuck]

Anyway I'm spitting into the wind here. But it blows my mind how we just decide who is good and who isn't based on stylistic preferences and narratives more than we do what players are accomplishing and the positive impact they are having.

I hope it's not related to my posts, because I don't do that. Nobody denies that Giannis is very good player and MVP candidate, but that's why I use high criteria for him. If you think that all of my criticism is about stylistic preferneces and narratives, then sorry but I strongly disagree with that.

Was speaking specifically to Dr. P, but without question this is a trend I see that goes well beyond him as I noted when I referenced Kawhi at the beginning of this where when Dallas was up 2-0 we heard all about how he built the team personally and wrong and isn't a leader and is selfish and yada yada yada.

Not trying to diminish anyone when they are making arguments with substance including you, but I continue to be disappointed at how much is pure narrative or pure stylistic preferences like claiming Giannis is a mediocre scorer when we have all this data that tells us he's a terrific scorer. I mean this board lost its mind over Zion this year and Giannis has 4 years of similar numbers and his team wins.

I wish he could shoot 3's and FT's too. But I don't ignore all the incredible stuff he does because he doesn't do that.

And here are his elimination series numbers:

22/11/5 on 55% TS Not as good as his RS stuff, but far from terrible. Middleton and Bledsoe really let the team down
23/14/6 on 52%TS Pretty inefficient but again Middleton and Bledsoe just dreadful
26/10/6 on 62%TS Bledsoe, Parker, Brogdon dreadful
25/10/4 on 56%TS Middleton and Brogdon dreadful

So you can see how we have this narrative of Giannis sucks in the playoffs built far less on his own performance but on his team failing and his offensive co-stars letting him down time and again.

I just think we overreact and a narrative starts and nobody questions it. And I like to question things. I used to be the only poster on this board who realized that despite the narrative of the opposite being the case that Robinson actually outplayed Dream h2h but one playoff series happened and nobody even bothered to see if it were true.

[MartinToVaught]

RealGM opinion of KD has seemingly never been lower, but wow the guy has been balling out this year. Very encouraging to see after some horrific injury luck

Huh in a poll asking who the best player remaining in the play-offs is KD is leading with only Kawhi and Jokic getting meaningful consideration. How is the RealGM opinion low on KD when half the people think he's the best player?

He's not just leading, he's lapping the field - even though he's hiding on yet another mega-stacked team that makes it impossible to fairly evaluate him, and he's playing weak opponents.

Kawhi, Jokic and Trae have been more impressive in the playoffs so far, and that's not counting guys like Doncic and Lillard whose teams already lost.

IDK why anyone thinks the RealGM opinion is low on Durant when the GB is full of LeBron haters hyping him up to spite LeBron's fans.

[Bidofo]

I mean.... its a 4 year sample size of elite production/efficiency. We lose the plot when we ignore that to focus on he's not a great shooter. You can say whatever you want to say, but the results are the results. His team wins a bunch of games. His numbers are terrific.


Yes, in the playoffs he's not Dirk or Lebron. Again though its a team game and Middleton is supposed to be that guy who helps in the half court when teams build the wall and he's been really bad costing them game 1. Giannis poor TS% against Miami cost them nothing yet we focus on that.

Anyway I'm spitting into the wind here. But it blows my mind how we just decide who is good and who isn't based on stylistic preferences and narratives more than we do what players are accomplishing and the positive impact they are having.

I'm not sure if the people criticizing Giannis' limited skillset which directly influences how well his team plays in the PLAYOFFS are the ones losing the plot. No one denies that Giannis is an all-time great regular season player, that's why he's always top 3 in POY voting for most people before the playoffs begin. And as someone who values RS a good amount, that's important value that he's adding to his season and career, but I still count the playoffs a significant amount relative to the number of games played. That's where legends make their careers, and it's where his team winning a bunch of games and him having great numbers isn't as true anymore.

No one is asking him to be Dirk or LeBron. That's an impossibly high standard. But we can't even expect David Robinson level impact at this point, and he's one of the worst regressors in history among all timers. Both guys are a far cry from their RS selves. At least with DRob one could say he didn't have enough offensive help so expecting him to excel under that defensive pressure is a tough sell. Giannis right now has two players who are better on offense than DRob ever had.

There's a bit of irony in saying focusing on Giannis' lack of a jump shot is missing the big picture, and then in the next part saying Middleton should be the one to step up when Giannis gets stopped by a defensive scheme that's built around his lack of a jump shot. Don't get me wrong, Middleton is playing terribly and he's not helping Giannis, but Giannis hasn't helped him that much this series either. Part of this blame should go to Bud too for not utilizing Giannis in more of an elite off-ball role. Bledsoe also didn't help either, but his role has been super upgraded now. The Bucks always have a 4-out offense now. I'm not writing him off completely yet, but if he doesn't dominate what should be a terrible defense that has no answer for him, I'm gonna be a little hot-takey and say he won't be top 3 in POY voting in the near future unless he improves that skillset.

I understand where you are coming from too, I largely used to completely ignore skillset (not sure who's using stylistic preferences or narratives though). The skillset excuse was always what people used to put Kobe and Melo as better scorers than LeBron (today people use it to say Kyrie's a better scorer than Curry), so I was turned off by it. But those people were just looking at it from the wrong way, since LeBron and Curry are highly effective (and better) scorers and offensive engines regardless of some nebulous skillset argument. But Giannis' skillset is a direct reason for his struggles.

[Odinn21]

Giannis right now has two players who are better on offense than DRob ever had before his big injury.

Fixed it for you.