PG: Nets Edge Out Bucks in Game 2

[BucksRule18]

Woke up this morning annoyed. This will sound harsh because some of it was in the early days but Midds/Giannis have now been involved in playoff games/series where we once lost by 60 to the Bulls at home, were one of the rare teams who couldn't close out a perennial choker Toronto Raptors despite leading the series and taking home court advantage, got blown out to a young Celtics team in a game 7, lost 4 straight to Toronto while leading by double digits in multiple games, blew games late in multiple games on route to getting gentlemen swept by Miami and now falling apart again against Brooklyn. We can rightfully blame coaches and in part inexperience but maybe they are who they are at this point.

There is a scenario out there that Bud has overachieved with this roster the past three years. Not sure I subscribe to it, but plausible.

if in place of giannis we had lebron, curry, kawhi, joker, donkic.... even if we had a paul, trae, lillard..... then this roster is better and we'd probably already have a title. this roster is good enough if we had that guy. i believe it in my heart.

but turly.....we have overacheived each and every year in the regular season just like the atlanta teams did. unfortunately just like buds atlanta teams we lack a true championship level #1. you cannot cross up russell westbrook and andre drummond into the ultimate stat getter and win championships with that as your #1. this is now my reality and i will not be satified with this team until giannis is dealt for a shot at a player who can shoot, pass, play with gears, play with confidence....basically make his teammates better with something more than "gravity" because of his ability to put his head down....drive....and try to dunk.....hopefully not getting fouled and go to the line instead.

we have a brutal painful road ahead. it is going to suck to be a bucks fan for awhile now.

At this point I'd take Booker and Mitchell over what we have as well.

[paulpressey25]

We either had to pay Middleton or trade him for a lesser player who would likely leave Milwaukee the first chance they got. Wish the Bucks had tanked in a year where the top 2 picks weren't Wiggins and Jabari.

There was another alternative to both of those scenarios.

1. You didn't need to pay Middleton, but could have worked the cap that summer to keep Brogdon and sign Bojan. Then you'd have had the $178mm paid to Khris diversified into two guys who each were paid $80mm. We'd have been in much better shape if they had the guts to do that.

2. We could have drafted Embiid. The guy put down 40 last night. But as Marc Lasry said a month before the draft "We've got the 2nd pick and are taking Jabari!" I don't fault the Bucks for picking Jabari. That was a safe and extremely defensible decision. It just turned out to be the wrong decision.

[BucksRule18]

We either had to pay Middleton or trade him for a lesser player who would likely leave Milwaukee the first chance they got. Wish the Bucks had tanked in a year where the top 2 picks weren't Wiggins and Jabari.

There was another alternative to both of those scenarios.

1. You didn't need to pay Middleton, but could have worked the cap that summer to keep Brogdon and sign Bojan. Then you'd have had the $178mm paid to Khris diversified into two guys who each were paid $80mm. We'd have been in much better shape if they had the guts to do that.

2. We could have drafted Embiid. The guy put down 40 last night. But as Marc Lasry said a month before the draft "We've got the 2nd pick and are taking Jabari!" I don't fault the Bucks for picking Jabari. That was a safe and extremely defensible decision. It just turned out to be the wrong decision.

I did think of Embiid, but unfortunately we all know that wasn't going to happen. Even if he did not fit great next to Giannis, we could have trades one of them for another superstar scorer. I love Brogdon, but as others have noted, he did not like living in Milwaukee.

The biggest disappointment for me in this series is Jrue turning into playoff Bledsoe 2.0. I really had high hopes there.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

There is a scenario out there that Bud has overachieved with this roster the past three years. Not sure I subscribe to it, but plausible.

if in place of giannis we had lebron, curry, kawhi, joker, donkic.... even if we had a paul, trae, lillard..... then this roster is better and we'd probably already have a title. this roster is good enough if we had that guy. i believe it in my heart.

but turly.....we have overacheived each and every year in the regular season just like the atlanta teams did. unfortunately just like buds atlanta teams we lack a true championship level #1. you cannot cross up russell westbrook and andre drummond into the ultimate stat getter and win championships with that as your #1. this is now my reality and i will not be satified with this team until giannis is dealt for a shot at a player who can shoot, pass, play with gears, play with confidence....basically make his teammates better with something more than "gravity" because of his ability to put his head down....drive....and try to dunk.....hopefully not getting fouled and go to the line instead.

we have a brutal painful road ahead. it is going to suck to be a bucks fan for awhile now.

At this point I'd take Booker and Mitchell over what we have as well.

tatum, butler, beal, harden, kyrie, lavine.....i mean practically it gets really interesting thinking about what we could have here if we had a guy you have to guard if he doesnt have the ball and play up against if he does.

[coolhandluke121]

We either had to pay Middleton or trade him for a lesser player who would likely leave Milwaukee the first chance they got. Wish the Bucks had tanked in a year where the top 2 picks weren't Wiggins and Jabari.

There was another alternative to both of those scenarios.

1. You didn't need to pay Middleton, but could have worked the cap that summer to keep Brogdon and sign Bojan. Then you'd have had the $178mm paid to Khris diversified into two guys who each were paid $80mm. We'd have been in much better shape if they had the guts to do that.

2. We could have drafted Embiid. The guy put down 40 last night. But as Marc Lasry said a month before the draft "We've got the 2nd pick and are taking Jabari!" I don't fault the Bucks for picking Jabari. That was a safe and extremely defensible decision. It just turned out to be the wrong decision.

You and I both pushed that Bojan + Malcolm > Khris thing pretty hard. Khris then had a great year and I think a lot of people acted like he had proven his case, but much like the Jrue trade, stuff is still constantly being added to the scales and the only conclusive thing that can happen this early is either making major contributions to a title on the positive side or declining dramatically on the negative.

It's not just the Jabari pick, which is defensible in and of itself, but also keeping him until his trade value was zilch despite all the red flags. He was a classic hot potato of an asset.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

brainstorming all the little things we could have done over the last 5 years to marginally improve the cast around giannis wouldnt have made one **** difference the other night down 49 against the nets.

the fact of the matter is you could swap giannis for durant on both these rosters and we would be giving them an even bigger ass whupping then were getting.

we need to stay on point. deandre jordan is a DNP. andre drummond is a DNP. dwight howard is a backup bit player. you CAN NOT WIN with versions of this in the playoffs and thats what were trying to do here in milwaukee each and every time we set up our half court offense.

further more there isnt a scheme to stop scorers like that who when you double just make the right play for their teammates instead. that means defensively they gain an advantage as well. butler and adebayo we could stop.... they cant shoot. durant and kyrie? yeah our defense they use as puppets.

is giannis devastating in transition and fun to watch when the defense isnt set or prepared? yes you bet but in the playoffs who the **** cares.

[BucksRule18]

We either had to pay Middleton or trade him for a lesser player who would likely leave Milwaukee the first chance they got. Wish the Bucks had tanked in a year where the top 2 picks weren't Wiggins and Jabari.

There was another alternative to both of those scenarios.

1. You didn't need to pay Middleton, but could have worked the cap that summer to keep Brogdon and sign Bojan. Then you'd have had the $178mm paid to Khris diversified into two guys who each were paid $80mm. We'd have been in much better shape if they had the guts to do that.

2. We could have drafted Embiid. The guy put down 40 last night. But as Marc Lasry said a month before the draft "We've got the 2nd pick and are taking Jabari!" I don't fault the Bucks for picking Jabari. That was a safe and extremely defensible decision. It just turned out to be the wrong decision.

You and I both pushed that Bojan + Malcolm > Khris thing pretty hard. Khris then had a great year and I think a lot of people acted like he had proven his case, but much like the Jrue trade, stuff is still constantly being added to the scales and the only conclusive thing that can happen this early is either making major contributions to a title on the positive side or declining dramatically on the negative.

It's not just the Jabari pick, which is defensible in and of itself, but also keeping him until his trade value was zilch despite all the red flags. He was a classic hot potato of an asset.

It kind of goes back to the mentality that Milwaukee wants to do right by its players. They likely didn't want to trade Parker because they didn't want to be seen as a small market team bailing on their No. 2 pick so quickly, especially after the first ACL. It's the same thing when we gave up Pachulia and Dudley for nothing just to make sure they went to a team they wanted. In the meantime, we got taken to the cleaners by trading a 1st and 2nd pick for Vasquez.

[sidney lanier]

is giannis devastating in transition and fun to watch when the defense isnt set or prepared? yes you bet but in the playoffs who the **** cares.

Get stops, and that's worth caring about because you can exploit your advantage in transition. Take the ball out of the basket over and over, not so much.

The Nets shot 52% on Monday. If they make over half their shots again tomorrow, it will be time to clean the golf clubs and for Bud to polish his resume. I don't think they will.

[Ron Swanson]

brainstorming all the little things we could have done over the last 5 years to marginally improve the cast around giannis wouldnt have made one **** difference the other night down 49 against the nets.

the fact of the matter is you could swap giannis for durant on both these rosters and we would be giving them an even bigger ass whupping then were getting.

we need to stay on point. deandre jordan is a DNP. andre drummond is a DNP. dwight howard is a backup bit player. you CAN NOT WIN with versions of this in the playoffs and thats what were trying to do here in milwaukee each and every time we set up our half court offense.

further more there isnt a scheme to stop scorers like that who when you double just make the right play for their teammates instead. that means defensively they gain an advantage as well. butler and adebayo we could stop.... they cant shoot. durant and kyrie? yeah our defense they use as puppets.

is giannis devastating in transition and fun to watch when the defense isnt set or prepared? yes you bet but in the playoffs who the **** cares.

Yeah, pretty much this at this point. Lot of people revisiting their tried and true narratives saying "this was the biggest mistake" but you could blame it on a million different minor roster decisions and claim you're not wrong because it's one giant butterfly effect. Do I think this team is better now and in the future had we acquired Chris Paul? Yeah, I still do, but I'm not gonna say it'd mean that we're up 2-0 in the series right now.

The biggest issue that we're all forced to confront at this point is that building a team around Giannis as the main guy is more difficult than your typical franchise superstar. The next GM is gonna have to build a championship roster around Giannis' limitations on offense with next to no tradeable assets and cap room. It's not an enviable task, but it's where we're at.

[bucksfansince88]

Giannis Needs a steve nash type point guard to be in his proper place, he's a better version of prime Stoudemire

[BucksRule18]

brainstorming all the little things we could have done over the last 5 years to marginally improve the cast around giannis wouldnt have made one **** difference the other night down 49 against the nets.

the fact of the matter is you could swap giannis for durant on both these rosters and we would be giving them an even bigger ass whupping then were getting.

we need to stay on point. deandre jordan is a DNP. andre drummond is a DNP. dwight howard is a backup bit player. you CAN NOT WIN with versions of this in the playoffs and thats what were trying to do here in milwaukee each and every time we set up our half court offense.

further more there isnt a scheme to stop scorers like that who when you double just make the right play for their teammates instead. that means defensively they gain an advantage as well. butler and adebayo we could stop.... they cant shoot. durant and kyrie? yeah our defense they use as puppets.

is giannis devastating in transition and fun to watch when the defense isnt set or prepared? yes you bet but in the playoffs who the **** cares.

The biggest problem is that I don't think Giannis sees this as being the case. I'm almost 100% sure he held out signing the extension so the Bucks make a splashy move to get him help. I get it, but at the end of the day your superstar has to find his own shot. The other issue is that Giannis also doesn't want veteran players like Chris Paul or Harden on his team. Younger players like Booker, Luka or Mitchell would work, but that's not happening.

I want to blame the front office for everything, but I also think trying to keep Giannis happy has been at the forefront for them (e.g. signing Snell, his brother and Connaughton).

[Pachinko_]

Maybe because I've never watched another player so closely, but for me, he is easily the most predicable player.

Yep.
I've been saying since forever and a day, I think since his rookie year, that the guy is a defender. That's his calling card, that's what he is, and that's what the team should be focusing on taking advantage of.

Anything else that Giannis does should be left to chance and treated as a bonus, sometimes the D will give him stuff he can do and he'll finish with 30+ points, but if the D takes those things away then Giannis should be allowed to finish some games with 10 points, and that should be ok. Forcing him to be something that he's not has been a friggin disaster.

This works if you have Joel Embiid and you are asking Giannis to be Ben Simmons.

Well, not yet, they still have done **** all together those two. They also had Jimmy Butler and JJ Redick (and Tobias) at some point, and still **** all.

[Ron Swanson]

I've been a pretty vocal critic of Giannis' shortcomings in the postseason even before the last 2 years, but I'm not gonna wildly speculate about who he wanted/didn't want on the team, or accuse him selfishly hunting his shot or wanting all the usage. I'll never question his motivation and desire to win. I'm not buying this whole "he didn't want Paul on the team" garbage because even if it was true, it's up to the front office to make moves that's best for the team, not to cave to what they think makes him the most happy.

Guess what? Kyle Lowry hated Masai for trading his buddy DeRozan for Kawhi, but who gives a ****? Kawhi was the infinitely better player and won them a championship. Part of the GM's job is to communicate and keep the players content, but this whole "nice guy Jon Horst" thing does seem to have bitten us more times than not the past couple years.

[sidney lanier]

Guess what? Kyle Lowry hated Masai for trading his buddy DeRozan for Kawhi, but who gives a ****? Kawhi was the infinitely better player and won them a championship. Part of the GM's job is to communicate and keep the players content, but this whole "nice guy Jon Horst" thing does seem to have bitten us more times than not the past couple years.

OK, but at the end of the day (as Giannis likes to say) your leader has to lead the supporting cast, not the other way around. So far in this series that hasn't been the case. Regardless of who the GM finds to put around him, your alpha has to alpha or it just doesn't matter.

I wouldn't underestimate the effect front-of-the-rim free throws and early-in-the-clock clanking threes have on the performance of the others, either.

[BucksRule18]

I just want the Bucks to come out with a chip on their shoulder and send a message to the Nets that you may be able to win this series, but we'll give you everything we've got. That's how future championship caliber teams are built. I'm sure Dallas fans are disappointed now, but like the fact that their superstar did everything he could against 2 superstars. Going out with a whimper will teach this team absolutely nothing. I want to see players diving for balls in the 2nd row tomorrow. Show that you can compete.

[Coach Carter]

I'm sure some of you remember this. 2017, Elimination game, 7 sec left, down 3, we need a 3 duh, giannis drives to the rim for a 2, raptors more than happy with his decision as they defend khris n terry who was catching fire towards the end. I think that's snell on the corner 3 left open and giannis doesn't see him.

Watch on YouTube

Giannis always had a low bball IQ. The fact that he has achieved what he has achieved is a testament to his work ethic and freakish nature. We just didn't do a good enough job building around him. This team needed/needs players with smarts more than anything.

[truly]

Lol at mitchel,paul,young or lillard being mentioned in here.Those guys aren't winning anything if you put them in place of Giannis.

[BucksRule18]

Lol at mitchel,paul,young or lillard being mentioned in here.Those guys aren't winning anything if you put them in place of Giannis.

I think that even with his shortcomings Giannis is definitely a superstar. I'm just worried that the Nets have us figured out, and just like the previous Raptors and Heat losses, we have no answers. At least someone like Lillard or Mitchell can get hot in one or 2 games and pull a rabbit out of a hat all on their own. A pure shooter could also open up more space for Middleton and Jrue.

[BigO]

All the anti-Giannis forces out in full gear. And 90% of will claim you've always been saying this. Ya.

The geniuses here want to trade Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, Dante, and who else? Sounds great. Here's another great idea. Since it's a talent issue, let's keep Bud. Five year extension for Bud and trade all the players.

[skones]

Love your passion-your insight not so much.

Yes, I believe if Bud tells Giannis not to shoot threes, that's what Giannis would do. So your ridiculous point that once on the court Giannis does whatever he wants is pretty absurd.

Giannis touts in most interviews his coaches gameplan. If Bud tells him not to shoot threes, that's exactly what Giannis will do.If Bud says not to bring the ball up court and let someone else do it, that's what Giannis will do. If you don't believe this, then you believe Giannis will consciously not follow what his coach says.

You can blather all the ad hominem things you want at me. I have broad shoulders.

Nah, these aren't ad hominem things. My arguments pertain to your actual "perfect world" points which don't even exist. Your arguments consistently jump from one thing to another all the while taking micro leaps in order to find a straw man that doesn't make your own argument look completely stupid. It's tiresome. I've gone ahead and bolded one of those straw men in your post above in which you've taken the liberty to frame some sort of position I don't have as one that I do. This is a consistent problem with your posts.

There's a human aspect to this game. As stated previously, and plainly, Giannis is a mental midget. He lacks confidence in certain areas of his game and it hurts this team when the going gets tough. What you fail to be able to grasp is the effect it would have on Giannis if Bud were to begin to micromanage his shooting of threes and bringing the ball up. The reality of it is that Giannis doesn't do either of these things every single time, and that's where the human element comes in. Hungry mouths need to be fed, egos need to be stroked, and wealthy men need to feel like they're heard and have the ability to demonstrate what they can do. "Don't shoot threes ever" and "Don't ever bring the ball up, let someone else do it" rings of incredible naivety given the accomplishments and dollars involved in the NBA, and it's exactly why that "rule with an iron fist like I do with my college program" doesn't work. This isn't football, this is basketball. The actions on the court aren't telegraphed play after play after play. The game is played within a framework set by the coaching staff, and plays happen outside of that framework. That's the game.

Broad shoulders? Welp, you know what they say about brains over brawn.