2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3

[3toheadmelo]

I’m not really a fan of Keon Johnson. There is nothing that really stands out about him besides that he can dunk. A lot of people have him as a lottery pick but to me he’s like a late first rounder or even a second rounder. That’s my hot take. Lol

[mpharris36]

6'6" still isn't over 6'6"

Yeah I was taking the question as outside of guards like Green and Suggs who are guards that can create there own shot (then you have guys like Bouknight and Mann who are really good on the ball. Who was a wing that could create his own shot outside of Cade. Kuminga is probably up there.

Barnes in terms of creating for others...but his scoring game is so raw right now.

This is going to be hot takey a little bit but i'm not 100% sold on Cade's ability to create his own shot at the next level. I think his understanding of the game and reads out of pick and roll are outstanding and he has by far the highest floor in this draft, but as far as self creation is concerned i'm a tad bit worried about him at the next level. Maybe he ends up like Luka where he's so big that it doesn't even matter and he can just shoot over the top or bully his way in but i'm worried about his ability to separate going downhill.

I'm not saying I would take Jalen Green over him ( I wouldn't in any scenario), but I think there's a world where Jalen Green ends up being the better offensive player.

Potentially. But with NBA spacing and Cade has the creativity to get wherever he wants on the court. Excellent vision and he proved in college his jumper is legit so teams will have to respect that. You don't need to be the most twitchy in todays NBA to get where you want with the amount of P&R's run and the amount of spacing since usually 3 or 4 guys are outside of the paint spacing the floor in a modern offense.

Green has elite offensive potential...his decision making is suspect at times. But no denying his tool bag to get separation to get his shot off. I still haven't decided how I would rank the top 4. I go back and forth.

Green probably has the highest offensive potential in terms of scoring but that means he pretty much has to become a #1 option type guy.

I think the other 3 have better secondary skills whether that is added playmaking/defense ect...

[mpharris36]

Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.

I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.

Ziarie is the McDaniels of this draft imo

But also check out Aaron Henry, He has decent shot creation skills, great defender and can pass it a bit. Brought him a while ago as someone we could target in the second round.

Watch on YouTube

because of his age he will def be a second round pick but Thibs might like a player like Henry. Good defender has turned himself into a decent offensive player. His biggest swing factor will be his 3 point shooting. He had a better soph year shooting and that might be because he was getting more C&S looks then this past year where he was more a focal point of the offense. His role in the NBA will be mostly C&S and defense. If his wingspan comes in at the reported 6'11 number he will have a chance to guard multiple positions in the NBA which will help his stock.

[WargamesX]

Read on Twitter

Let’s gooooo!!!!!!

Giddey is my #1 target!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

idk he might have heard it from Wasserman just like the rest of us. I do like Giddey I just can't get excited off of these things since Jason Kidd's big head son had us on a rumor based emotional rollercoaster

[mpharris36]

Can someone sell me on Davion Mitchell as a lotto pick? I've got him in the same tier as Butler, Mann, Ayo, Springer, Cooper, etc...towards the front of that group, but not at the very front

He has the chance to be an elite defensive guard. So your getting way more 2-way potential then the other guys mentioned.

True...and being a knockoff Keon Johnson is why I have him right behind Butler & Mann...but he's also a much bigger question mark offensively than most of those guys*, and if you can't stay on the floor with starters, your defensive ability offers less utility; especially when his size is likely to limit how many positions he can actually defend at the NBA level.

*especially if his FT shooting, turns out to be more indicative of his potential as a shooter, than his 3pt shooting this year.


Again, I like him in the late teens / early 20s, but I just don't understand how some folks have him just barely behind Keon Johnson; when Keon's got even better physical tools, even higher potential on both ends of the court, is already the better defender, and is much earlier in his developmental curve, while also being an absolute hound on the court & gym rat.

I think the thing with Johnson is will his shooting ever play a big time role. Mitchell you know will be able to shoot it.

Keon has all the physical tools. Very much like Okoro in that sense (and I liked okoro). Those prospect swing tools are always the shooting...so if you buy the shooting he will be a big time player.

[3toheadmelo]

I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.

Ziarie is the McDaniels of this draft imo

But also check out Aaron Henry, He has decent shot creation skills, great defender and can pass it a bit. Brought him a while ago as someone we could target in the second round.

Watch on YouTube

because of his age he will def be a second round pick but Thibs might like a player like Henry. Good defender has turned himself into a decent offensive player. His biggest swing factor will be his 3 point shooting. He had a better soph year shooting and that might be because he was getting more C&S looks then this past year where he was more a focal point of the offense. His role in the NBA will be mostly C&S and defense. If his wingspan comes in at the reported 6'11 number he will have a chance to guard multiple positions in the NBA which will help his stock.

I think he is more than a catch and shoot player. He has nice court vision and can create off the dribble. I agree that his 3 point shot is the biggest factor though

[mpharris36]

Ziarie is the McDaniels of this draft imo

But also check out Aaron Henry, He has decent shot creation skills, great defender and can pass it a bit. Brought him a while ago as someone we could target in the second round.

Watch on YouTube

because of his age he will def be a second round pick but Thibs might like a player like Henry. Good defender has turned himself into a decent offensive player. His biggest swing factor will be his 3 point shooting. He had a better soph year shooting and that might be because he was getting more C&S looks then this past year where he was more a focal point of the offense. His role in the NBA will be mostly C&S and defense. If his wingspan comes in at the reported 6'11 number he will have a chance to guard multiple positions in the NBA which will help his stock.

I think he is more than a catch and shoot player. He has nice court vision and can create off the dribble. I agree that his 3 point shot is the biggest factor though

I think its a nice tool to have that Henry is a little more than just a C&S guy, he has some driving ability for sure. But the question you have to ask yourself there is only one ball and so many offenses are centric around 1 or 2 guys...if he isn't really worth of having the ball in his hands the slightly extra creativity really doesn't play up because lets be honest Henry isn't going to make his way in the NBA creating offense.

He is going to make an impact defending multiple positions, getting out in transition, and potentially hitting open 3's. Comparing him to another Mich State guy he def doesn't play in the same athletic category as a miles bridges...so his swing NBA skills has to be knock down shooting.

But I always trust Mich State guys to have high bbiq. So he has that going for him. Def a prospect to take a look at in the 2nd round potentially.

[3toheadmelo]

Another hot take. Josh Giddey seems more like Tomas Satoransky than Lamelo Ball to me. I would take Bouknight, Tre Mann, Ayo Dosunmo over him.

[DaGawd]

Another hot take. Josh Giddey seems more like Tomas Satoransky than Lamelo Ball to me. I would take Bouknight, Tre Mann, Ayo Dosunmo over him.

Yeah saw his highlights and meh… he’s a 4 inch taller Ricky rubio

[cgf]

I’m not really a fan of Keon Johnson. There is nothing that really stands out about him besides that he can dunk. A lot of people have him as a lottery pick but to me he’s like a late first rounder or even a second rounder. That’s my hot take. Lol

That's not just hot, that's magma IMO

Keon's defense, athleticism & motor stand out pretty clearly to me. Add a nice feel for the game given how inexperienced he is...as he only picked the sport up in HS & is very young for his class...and a rapid rate of improvement over the past year or two, and he ticks a lot of boxes for me.

Obviously, his skills will need further polish & there is a lot more he will need to learn, but he's given good reason to think he will make that progress and the end result could be fantastic...as he reminds me so much of Russ when he came out, or maybe Ja before his sophomore breakout.

Keon's handle will need to get tighter, though with his athleticism he can probably already get wherever he wants with NBA spacing. His playmaking is underdeveloped, though he flashed it & has shown the kind of feel for the game that leads me to believe he'll figure it out as his understanding of the game & personal gravity increase. His shot will have to improve, but the mechanics aren't broken and it has already come a long way from the start of his senior year in HS.


Where he lands & interviews will be important for him...as will how much he has improved since the season ended...but I won't be surprised at all if he moves ahead of Kuminga & Suggs in future re-drafts of this class. Just the kind of kid you want to bet on, with the kind of upside that would be franchise-changing if it is realized.

[3toheadmelo]

because of his age he will def be a second round pick but Thibs might like a player like Henry. Good defender has turned himself into a decent offensive player. His biggest swing factor will be his 3 point shooting. He had a better soph year shooting and that might be because he was getting more C&S looks then this past year where he was more a focal point of the offense. His role in the NBA will be mostly C&S and defense. If his wingspan comes in at the reported 6'11 number he will have a chance to guard multiple positions in the NBA which will help his stock.

I think he is more than a catch and shoot player. He has nice court vision and can create off the dribble. I agree that his 3 point shot is the biggest factor though

I think its a nice tool to have that Henry is a little more than just a C&S guy, he has some driving ability for sure. But the question you have to ask yourself there is only one ball and so many offenses are centric around 1 or 2 guys...if he isn't really worth of having the ball in his hands the slightly extra creativity really doesn't play up because lets be honest Henry isn't going to make his way in the NBA creating offense.

He is going to make an impact defending multiple positions, getting out in transition, and potentially hitting open 3's. Comparing him to another Mich State guy he def doesn't play in the same athletic category as a miles bridges...so his swing NBA skills has to be knock down shooting.

But I always trust Mich State guys to have high bbiq. So he has that going for him. Def a prospect to take a look at in the 2nd round potentially.

Don’t think it hurts to have multiple guys who can create. Utah has Conley, Mitchell, Bojan, Ingles and Clarkson. Works for them

[cgf]

Another hot take. Josh Giddey seems more like Tomas Satoransky than Lamelo Ball to me. I would take Bouknight, Tre Mann, Ayo Dosunmo over him.

I'm not as high on Giddey as some, but he's another one of those kids whose rate of improvement lends itself to optimism that he'll end up more on the Hayward / Batum end of his possible outcomes.

[camillepd]

I think if Chris Duarte is there, Knicks grab him at # 19.

[3toheadmelo]

I’m not really a fan of Keon Johnson. There is nothing that really stands out about him besides that he can dunk. A lot of people have him as a lottery pick but to me he’s like a late first rounder or even a second rounder. That’s my hot take. Lol

That's not just hot, that's magma IMO

Keon's defense, athleticism & motor stand out pretty clearly to me. Add a nice feel for the game given how inexperienced he is...as he only picked the sport up in HS & is very young for his class...and a rapid rate of improvement over the past year or two, and he ticks a lot of boxes for me.

Obviously, his skills will need further polish & there is a lot more he will need to learn, but he's given good reason to think he will make that progress and the end result could be fantastic...as he reminds me so much of Russ when he came out, or someone like Ja before his sophomore breakout.

Keon's handle will need to get tighter, though with his athleticism he can probably already get wherever he wants with NBA spacing. His playmaking is underdeveloped, though he flashed it & has shown the kind of feel for the game that leads me to believe he'll figure it out as his understanding of the game & personal gravity increase. His shot will have to improve, but the mechanics aren't broken and it has already come a long way from the start of his senior year in HS.


Where he lands & interviews will be important for him...as will how much he has improved since the season ended...but I won't be surprised at all if he moves ahead of Kuminga & Suggs in future re-drafts of this class. Just the kind of kid you want to bet on, with the kind of upside that would be franchise-changing if it is realized.

I was expecting a lengthy response from you

Yeah sorry man, I don’t really see anything that impressive with him besides his athleticism. Will just have to agree to disagree here. If the Knicks somehow get him, I hope I am wrong

[mpharris36]

I think he is more than a catch and shoot player. He has nice court vision and can create off the dribble. I agree that his 3 point shot is the biggest factor though

I think its a nice tool to have that Henry is a little more than just a C&S guy, he has some driving ability for sure. But the question you have to ask yourself there is only one ball and so many offenses are centric around 1 or 2 guys...if he isn't really worth of having the ball in his hands the slightly extra creativity really doesn't play up because lets be honest Henry isn't going to make his way in the NBA creating offense.

He is going to make an impact defending multiple positions, getting out in transition, and potentially hitting open 3's. Comparing him to another Mich State guy he def doesn't play in the same athletic category as a miles bridges...so his swing NBA skills has to be knock down shooting.

But I always trust Mich State guys to have high bbiq. So he has that going for him. Def a prospect to take a look at in the 2nd round potentially.

Don’t think it hurts to have multiple guys who can create. Utah has Conley, Mitchell, Bojan, Ingles and Clarkson. Works for them

Oh I agree I just don't see Henry anywhere near those guys in terms of playmaking ability or ability to shoot of the dribble. For example I don't expect Henry to be running many P&R's at the next level. All the other guys above you mentioned can do that.

It sure doesn't hurt he can put it on the floor but I still think he will be relegated to C&S and finishing in transition which he is good at. He isn't a good movement shooter at all so that limits him on ball. And his ball handling is pretty sloppy.

He's got the defensive tools (can he shoot it well enough will be whether he sticks or not).

[newyorker4ever]

https://theknickswall.com/knicks-should-hold-both-first-round-nba-draft-picks/

With a Julius Randle extension over the horizon and a pursuit of a superstar, the Knicks should keep both of their first-round NBA Draft picks this year.

For the first time since 2016, the New York Knicks aren’t picking in the top 10 of the NBA draft. I’m not quite sure how to feel about that. What I do know is that there’s no need to watch the NBA Draft Lottery, no need to sweat over ping-pong balls, and no need to get frustrated when the Knicks either remain in their original slot or move down. And there’s a bit of bonus compared to other seasons; thanks to the Tim Hardaway Jr. trade to Dallas, the Knicks have two first-round picks: 19th and 21st overall.

After receiving hands and feet from the Atlanta Hawks in the first round of NBA playoffs, the Knicks must now regroup and explore all options to improve their roster. Free agency will be the talk of the town as the Knicks sit back with nearly $50 million in cap space to spend. However, one popular move discussed has been to use both first-round picks to move up in the draft.



Consider me skeptical on the idea. I’m of the mind the Knicks should use their top three draft selections—picks 19, 21, 32—to attempt to improve the roster, both for now and for the future.

And while the class appears star-studded at the top, the drop-off starts about pick five or so, a range the Knicks can’t get into. The last trade involving two non-lottery picks for a lottery pick was the 2017 NBA Draft, where the Portland Trail Blazers moved the 15th and 20th selections to the Sacramento Kings for the 10th overall pick. It’s not an impossible task, but Portland had the first pick just outside the lottery, whereas New York is at 19th overall, quite a bit ways away.

So, let’s talk about why the Knicks should keep both of their first-round picks.

[DaGawd]

https://theknickswall.com/knicks-should-hold-both-first-round-nba-draft-picks/

With a Julius Randle extension over the horizon and a pursuit of a superstar, the Knicks should keep both of their first-round NBA Draft picks this year.

For the first time since 2016, the New York Knicks aren’t picking in the top 10 of the NBA draft. I’m not quite sure how to feel about that. What I do know is that there’s no need to watch the NBA Draft Lottery, no need to sweat over ping-pong balls, and no need to get frustrated when the Knicks either remain in their original slot or move down. And there’s a bit of bonus compared to other seasons; thanks to the Tim Hardaway Jr. trade to Dallas, the Knicks have two first-round picks: 19th and 21st overall.

After receiving hands and feet from the Atlanta Hawks in the first round of NBA playoffs, the Knicks must now regroup and explore all options to improve their roster. Free agency will be the talk of the town as the Knicks sit back with nearly $50 million in cap space to spend. However, one popular move discussed has been to use both first-round picks to move up in the draft.



Consider me skeptical on the idea. I’m of the mind the Knicks should use their top three draft selections—picks 19, 21, 32—to attempt to improve the roster, both for now and for the future.

And while the class appears star-studded at the top, the drop-off starts about pick five or so, a range the Knicks can’t get into. The last trade involving two non-lottery picks for a lottery pick was the 2017 NBA Draft, where the Portland Trail Blazers moved the 15th and 20th selections to the Sacramento Kings for the 10th overall pick. It’s not an impossible task, but Portland had the first pick just outside the lottery, whereas New York is at 19th overall, quite a bit ways away.

So, let’s talk about why the Knicks should keep both of their first-round picks.

Really feel like we should get creative and either try and move up or package those picks for an established player. Thibs isn’t gonna play too many young guys at once

[cgf]

He has the chance to be an elite defensive guard. So your getting way more 2-way potential then the other guys mentioned.

True...and being a knockoff Keon Johnson is why I have him right behind Butler & Mann...but he's also a much bigger question mark offensively than most of those guys*, and if you can't stay on the floor with starters, your defensive ability offers less utility; especially when his size is likely to limit how many positions he can actually defend at the NBA level.

*especially if his FT shooting, turns out to be more indicative of his potential as a shooter, than his 3pt shooting this year.


Again, I like him in the late teens / early 20s, but I just don't understand how some folks have him just barely behind Keon Johnson; when Keon's got even better physical tools, even higher potential on both ends of the court, is already the better defender, and is much earlier in his developmental curve, while also being an absolute hound on the court & gym rat.

I think the thing with Johnson is will his shooting ever play a big time role. Mitchell you know will be able to shoot it.

Keon has all the physical tools. Very much like Okoro in that sense (and I liked okoro). Those prospect swing tools are always the shooting...so if you buy the shooting he will be a big time player.

I guess that's the big difference. I see lead guard potential in Keon and I am far from sold on Mitchell's shooting. Sure he shot the college 3 well this season, but he didn't in previous ones & he's been a poor FT shooter his entire time at Baylor.

Hell given their rate of improvement as shooters, I might be more confident in Keon getting his shot to a high level than I am Mitchell...despite Mitchell probably being further ahead atm...though it's a clear question mark for both.

[3toheadmelo]

I think its a nice tool to have that Henry is a little more than just a C&S guy, he has some driving ability for sure. But the question you have to ask yourself there is only one ball and so many offenses are centric around 1 or 2 guys...if he isn't really worth of having the ball in his hands the slightly extra creativity really doesn't play up because lets be honest Henry isn't going to make his way in the NBA creating offense.

He is going to make an impact defending multiple positions, getting out in transition, and potentially hitting open 3's. Comparing him to another Mich State guy he def doesn't play in the same athletic category as a miles bridges...so his swing NBA skills has to be knock down shooting.

But I always trust Mich State guys to have high bbiq. So he has that going for him. Def a prospect to take a look at in the 2nd round potentially.

Don’t think it hurts to have multiple guys who can create. Utah has Conley, Mitchell, Bojan, Ingles and Clarkson. Works for them

Oh I agree I just don't see Henry anywhere near those guys in terms of playmaking ability or ability to shoot of the dribble. For example I don't expect Henry to be running many P&R's at the next level. All the other guys above you mentioned can do that.

It sure doesn't hurt he can put it on the floor but I still think he will be relegated to C&S and finishing in transition which he is good at. He isn't a good movement shooter at all so that limits him on ball. And his ball handling is pretty sloppy.

He's got the defensive tools (can he shoot it well enough will be whether he sticks or not).

Guess it depends on what you think of his ball handling and court vision . I think his handle is nice and he’s had some games with a lot of assists. I like his potential as a creator for himself and others. I think he is a nice gamble with good upside in the second round. Not expecting much from him but just someone I think should be on our radar

[mpharris36]

Yeah I haven't seen enough of Giddey outside a few clips to make a determination. Sounds like he has improved a lot in some key areas. But people do tend to fall in love with tall guys that can handle and pass...my concern is he doesn't look like a great athlete and his shot is ugly. I really don't see much off the dribble shooting in his future which always held rubio back as a player.

I think its very challenging, no matter how big you are to be a suspect athlete and a poor shooting to have a big impact in todays NBA which is all about pace and space. You can survive without one but without both?

He's a really fun passer though.