Moderators: KingDavid, IggieCC, QUIZ, BFRESH44, heat4life, MettaWorldPanda, Wiltside
twix2500 wrote:I was wondering could trading Nunn for Reggie and Ibaka work.Beenie wrote:If Reggie Jackson could be had at a number less than what Nunn will command, I'd favor Jax to provide the PG depth.
TBC, I still prioritize a higher quality PG/perimeter playmaker than either guy.
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heat4life wrote:SA37 wrote:Stars are in short supply, especially the franchise-changing variety. However, there are a few who may become available this summer: Kawhi, Lillard, Beal, Ben Simmons, DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry.
Plus you have All-star calibre guys who are also likely to be available: Kemba Walker, Kristaps Porzingis, Malcolm Brogdon, Myles Turner, Al Horford (granted, his best days may be behind him).
Of the guys mentioned above, I think Miami has a real shot at getting Lowry, DeRozan, and Beal (if he were to try to force his exit from Washington).
Being optimistic, but conservative, if Miami manages to get Lowry and re-signs Oladipo, you’re talking about a Miami team that would feature 4 players in the top-50 in the league, 2 of whom are arguably in the top-25.
Miami is going to have to model itself after Utah and Phoenix, not Brooklyn, the Clippers, or the Lakers.
Did you just sneak-in Ben Simmons name in your franchise changing players list?
dagger151 wrote:Everyone giving Riley the smackdown needs to chill. I seem to remember being in the same situation (or worse) a ccouple years ago when we got Jimmy and found a way to unload Whiteside while getting expiring contracts in return for flexibility. We parted with a fan favorite in J Rich in the process.
Fast forward to now. We are presented with options. While we dont have picks to sweeten deals, we do have Precious ( a 1st rounder) and can use Herro (another 1st rounder). Have to keep Jimmy and Bam and add a scorer and some complimentary pieces. Nunn and D Rob can be kept at reasonable contracts or you drop them. Dragic/Iggy can be used in a S&T.
I am frustrated too, but somehow, Riley pulls magic out of his hat when we least expect it why is why he is the Godfather. This is his last hurrah, no way he goes out on a bad note. Lets trust our "PROCESS" and see what happens this summer. Get over landing a superstar, its not happeneing unless you send out Bam or Jimmy (or both), and we dont necessarily need it. Find someone to defend the 3, we are so bad at it and in todays NBA, you will lose if you cant. Phoenix is a good example of how leading the NBA playoffs in 3 pt defense and opp FG% leads to tops in OPP total points/gm at 98 points. Generally today if you hold teams under 100, you win.
Trust Riley and Andy.
AirP. wrote:dagger151 wrote:Everyone giving Riley the smackdown needs to chill. I seem to remember being in the same situation (or worse) a ccouple years ago when we got Jimmy and found a way to unload Whiteside while getting expiring contracts in return for flexibility. We parted with a fan favorite in J Rich in the process.
Fast forward to now. We are presented with options. While we dont have picks to sweeten deals, we do have Precious ( a 1st rounder) and can use Herro (another 1st rounder). Have to keep Jimmy and Bam and add a scorer and some complimentary pieces. Nunn and D Rob can be kept at reasonable contracts or you drop them. Dragic/Iggy can be used in a S&T.
I am frustrated too, but somehow, Riley pulls magic out of his hat when we least expect it why is why he is the Godfather. This is his last hurrah, no way he goes out on a bad note. Lets trust our "PROCESS" and see what happens this summer. Get over landing a superstar, its not happeneing unless you send out Bam or Jimmy (or both), and we dont necessarily need it. Find someone to defend the 3, we are so bad at it and in todays NBA, you will lose if you cant. Phoenix is a good example of how leading the NBA playoffs in 3 pt defense and opp FG% leads to tops in OPP total points/gm at 98 points. Generally today if you hold teams under 100, you win.
Trust Riley and Andy.
Butler was a unique situation, Miami only got him because he was sold on Miami from D.Wade before he even met with Miami and actually agreed to sign with Miami in the first few minutes, there was no selling Miami to Butler because D.Wade already sold him on the environment. Not only did it cost Richardson, it also cost Miami a 1st round pick to reroute Harkless in the trade to the Clippers.
This FO has been bad for a while and was given a reprieve when Butler forced his way to Miami(not sure where this team would be without Butler). Miami could have had CP3 for very little but "future cap space" didn't let that happen. Last year's team could have been strengthened more with Gallo and Noel but once again "future cap space" didn't allow that to happen, that addition may have strengthened Miami's chance at a a title last year.
I still don't get why fans and even local reporters have said Miami gave up nothing for Oladipo, it'll be interesting to see how these same people react when they realize they're going to drop back 5-10 spots in the 1st round because of the swap in the 2022 draft in the Oladipo, that draft could also be the double draft if the NBA allows HS players to enter the NBA that offseason.
Miami's FO also got played by Giannis with trying to create space for him and Giannis waiting 3 weeks after free agency started so there'd be a chance Miami didn't strengthen their roster and actually the roster got worse with losing their starting PF for future cap space. There really wasn't a good reason for Giannis to wait to sign his supermax other then to keep Miami hopeful and trying to keep the roster flexible enough to get him the next offseason.
The FO hasn't done much at all since being gifted Butler 2 seasons ago.
Vertical Limit wrote:I dont want to bring the board down but having watched almost every game in the playoffs so far… we are so far away from winning a title… just speaking the truth…
When you see what Trae Young is doing, Luka, Kawhi, Donovan, Jokic, Embiid, Durant, Harden… ja Morant… i just named a bunch of players that each are better than any two top players in our roster, combined. I would trade Bam and Butler for any one of those players and some of those GM’s would laugh and hang up the phone.
Thats why im calling for us to blow it up before its too late… dont wait until Jimmy gets old… and then you have Bam and a bunch or scrubs… wasting his career away like we did to Wade from 07-09. (His best years after the olympics). if theres a superstar to be had, give up everyone and pair that superstar with Bam
heat4life wrote:
AirP, you might be reading too much into things. Giannis first priority was to stay with the Bucks. He waited because he wanted to make sure there were upgrade deals lined up before committing long term.
Waiting until his decision was made was the price SEVERAL teams paid. How upset would you be today if Miami used their cap flexibility resigning our role players long term only to find out 1-2 weeks later that you had a shot at Giannis. Let's not play the result. If you want a chance at a big move, you want to keep your cap flexibility. We missed on one of the targets - it takes two to make a deal - but we kept that flexibility to take another shot. This is much better than resigning Dion Waiters and James Johnson to cap killing long term deals.
On a side note, and not directed at you, but why do we keep pounding on the Crowder decision. Do we really think he would help us go to the NBA Finals again? Do we even make it past the Bucks with him? This team needs more than just Crowder and we have the flexibility to still go get it.
i totally i agree with you and dom on this issue. unless you are injured or something you put your best effort to win games before the fans not that bs that they displayed on national tv for all to see. it was truly disgraceful, as a matter of fact they (FO to players and coaches) should have been embarrassed by the lack of effort, heart and basketball IQ that they showed on the floor.Vertical Limit wrote:I dont want to bring the board down but having watched almost every game in the playoffs so far… we are so far away from winning a title… just speaking the truth…
When you see what Trae Young is doing, Luka, Kawhi, Donovan, Jokic, Embiid, Durant, Harden… ja Morant… i just named a bunch of players that each are better than any two top players in our roster, combined. I would trade Bam and Butler for any one of those players and some of those GM’s would laugh and hang up the phone.
Thats why im calling for us to blow it up before its too late… dont wait until Jimmy gets old… and then you have Bam and a bunch or scrubs… wasting his career away like we did to Wade from 07-09. (His best years after the olympics). if theres a superstar to be had, give up everyone and pair that superstar with Bam
eddieheatfan wrote:i totally i agree with you and dom on this issue. unless you are injured or something you put your best effort to win games before the fans not that bs that they displayed on national tv for all to see. it was truly disgraceful, as a matter of fact they (FO to players and coaches) should have been embarrassed by the lack of effort, heart and basketball IQ that they showed on the floor.Vertical Limit wrote:I dont want to bring the board down but having watched almost every game in the playoffs so far… we are so far away from winning a title… just speaking the truth…
When you see what Trae Young is doing, Luka, Kawhi, Donovan, Jokic, Embiid, Durant, Harden… ja Morant… i just named a bunch of players that each are better than any two top players in our roster, combined. I would trade Bam and Butler for any one of those players and some of those GM’s would laugh and hang up the phone.
Thats why im calling for us to blow it up before its too late… dont wait until Jimmy gets old… and then you have Bam and a bunch or scrubs… wasting his career away like we did to Wade from 07-09. (His best years after the olympics). if theres a superstar to be had, give up everyone and pair that superstar with Bam
but any true meaningful change should start with the firing of the head coach, dude cant adjust on the fly and its too stubborn and doesnt inspire the players to be the best of themselves.
riley did that, spobot needs an upgrade for that to happen. clean house,if not you are just treadmilling the team in to irrelevance
AirP. wrote:
How about this... ACQUIRE HIGH LEVEL TALENT WHEN IT'S AVALABLE. Since acquiring Butler 2 seasons ago this franchise had the ability to add CP3 and had the assets to be in the talks about acquiring Harden yet MIAMI was the team that left the trade talks. Maybe you had to trade Bam to get Harden... DO IT!!!!! In the Harden trade it wasn't just acquiring a top tier player, it was keeping Brooklyn from having THREE top tier players while Miami had zero.
All this talk of landing a whale yet when the ability is there the FO doesn't do it.
Kobewade11 wrote:AirP. wrote:
How about this... ACQUIRE HIGH LEVEL TALENT WHEN IT'S AVALABLE. Since acquiring Butler 2 seasons ago this franchise had the ability to add CP3 and had the assets to be in the talks about acquiring Harden yet MIAMI was the team that left the trade talks. Maybe you had to trade Bam to get Harden... DO IT!!!!! In the Harden trade it wasn't just acquiring a top tier player, it was keeping Brooklyn from having THREE top tier players while Miami had zero.
All this talk of landing a whale yet when the ability is there the FO doesn't do it.
If the other team is dragging their feet what do you want the FO to do? All those talks take a toll on the locker room which is why they pulled out of the trade. Same reason they pulled out of talks when Jimmy was in Minnesota. Can't make a deal if the other team is just pussy footing around.
AirP. wrote:
From my understanding with Minnesota, Riley was low balling Minnesota also. At the time Butler was 29 and Riley's last offer was Richardson, Bam(2nd year) and a protected 1st... at that time that was a lowball offer.
The Minnesota Timberwolves’ asking price to trade All-Star forward Jimmy Butler remains quality veterans, top prospects, future assets and salary-cap relief, which is presently too steep of a package for interested teams, league sources told ESPN.
Minnesota’s counter was a non-starter for Heat president Pat Riley, league sources said. Along with Butler, Miami had been willing to accept Gorgui Dieng and the remaining $48 million left on his contract under the right circumstances, sources said.
Kobewade11 wrote:AirP. wrote:
From my understanding with Minnesota, Riley was low balling Minnesota also. At the time Butler was 29 and Riley's last offer was Richardson, Bam(2nd year) and a protected 1st... at that time that was a lowball offer.
Honest question, why is it that from your perspective whenever a deal doesn't go through its always because Riley/FO were low balling/dropped the ball and never that the other team wasn't operating in good faith or something in between? In real time the sentiment league wide was that Minnesota was being unreasonable in their negotiations.The Minnesota Timberwolves’ asking price to trade All-Star forward Jimmy Butler remains quality veterans, top prospects, future assets and salary-cap relief, which is presently too steep of a package for interested teams, league sources told ESPN.
Minnesota’s counter was a non-starter for Heat president Pat Riley, league sources said. Along with Butler, Miami had been willing to accept Gorgui Dieng and the remaining $48 million left on his contract under the right circumstances, sources said.
Let's roll back memory lane. What happened with the Timberwolves Butler trade was the Wolves kept backing out if an agreement which was furiating the Heat. The Heat eventually backed out because they didn't feel the wolves were serious and remember there were a lot of turmoil between the coach and management.AirP. wrote:Kobewade11 wrote:AirP. wrote:
From my understanding with Minnesota, Riley was low balling Minnesota also. At the time Butler was 29 and Riley's last offer was Richardson, Bam(2nd year) and a protected 1st... at that time that was a lowball offer.
Honest question, why is it that from your perspective whenever a deal doesn't go through its always because Riley/FO were low balling/dropped the ball and never that the other team wasn't operating in good faith or something in between? In real time the sentiment league wide was that Minnesota was being unreasonable in their negotiations.The Minnesota Timberwolves’ asking price to trade All-Star forward Jimmy Butler remains quality veterans, top prospects, future assets and salary-cap relief, which is presently too steep of a package for interested teams, league sources told ESPN.
Minnesota’s counter was a non-starter for Heat president Pat Riley, league sources said. Along with Butler, Miami had been willing to accept Gorgui Dieng and the remaining $48 million left on his contract under the right circumstances, sources said.
I'm going off of what was reported by reporters from both sides. If you were Minnesota or Houston, would what was reported be enough for you to trade your star? I don't think so.
For the longest time it was reported that Riley wouldn't even offer a package of Richardson and Bam for Butler(maybe because Thibodeau wanted Dieng in the deal which was a negative), neither of them had done anything in the NBA at that point yet were 2 of the major pieces for a player who just carried a franchise to it's first playoffs in nearly a decade and a half(Minnesota was 3rd in the west when Butler tore his meniscus that kept him out 6 weeks, he had to come back before the playoffs JUST to get Minnesota into the playoffs, they fell off in 6 weeks that much without him) .
Yes, for most of the negotiations with Minnesota Thibodeau tried to put Dieng into the package, it got changed to just Butler near the end. The Minnesota thing was odd, Thibodeau didn't want to trade Butler and if people really watched that R.Nicholes interview with Butler after "the practice" Butler actually said that it was possible for the situation to be fixed in Minnesota but also said he didn't think it would happen. I believe the whole issue was with Towns who had the fanbase and owner(just a bad owner) on his side. The fanbase didn't want Butler in the first place, they wanted to just keep rebuilding, they thought they had future big 3 in Towns, Wiggins and Rubio.
On the Harden situation, I think Houston didn't get much for Harden, in fact I think everyone but Philly lowballed Houston and I'll tell you why and why it happened. Most of the picks they received from Brooklynn are going to be late first round picks and most of the swaps won't happen. Why I believe they didn't take the Philly offer which was rumored to include Simmons was that he would have made the odds of retaining their protected pick worse. On Miami, although I think it would have taken nearly all Miami's assets including Herro, it was possible for Miami to give Houston more value then what they got from Brooklyn and still tank. To me, there wasn't a big enough reason to walk away from the trade table you were already at when talking about a player of Harden's caliber.
BTW... If Lillard is available, just like I would have for Harden, I move everything outside of Butler to try to acquire him and continue to look for disgruntled higher level talent for the rest of their contracts.
eddieheatfan wrote:i totally i agree with you and dom on this issue. unless you are injured or something you put your best effort to win games before the fans not that bs that they displayed on national tv for all to see. it was truly disgraceful, as a matter of fact they (FO to players and coaches) should have been embarrassed by the lack of effort, heart and basketball IQ that they showed on the floor.Vertical Limit wrote:I dont want to bring the board down but having watched almost every game in the playoffs so far… we are so far away from winning a title… just speaking the truth…
When you see what Trae Young is doing, Luka, Kawhi, Donovan, Jokic, Embiid, Durant, Harden… ja Morant… i just named a bunch of players that each are better than any two top players in our roster, combined. I would trade Bam and Butler for any one of those players and some of those GM’s would laugh and hang up the phone.
Thats why im calling for us to blow it up before its too late… dont wait until Jimmy gets old… and then you have Bam and a bunch or scrubs… wasting his career away like we did to Wade from 07-09. (His best years after the olympics). if theres a superstar to be had, give up everyone and pair that superstar with Bam
but any true meaningful change should start with the firing of the head coach, dude cant adjust on the fly and its too stubborn and doesnt inspire the players to be the best of themselves.
riley did that, spobot needs an upgrade for that to happen. clean house,if not you are just treadmilling the team in to irrelevance
DayofMourning wrote:What it does do is put Bam and Herro into potential lead scorer roles which helps them develop. It also is almost guaranteed to put the Heat in the lottery next year. At that point you have Bam, Herro, Precious, KZ, Wiseman, picks 7 and 14 in 2021, and another lotto in 2022. You have a ton of cap space. That's how a team can go from being the 2020 Nets to the 2021 Nets.
Although sources told ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski earlier this week that there was widespread confidence Houston would trade Oladipo, the teams went right up to the 3 p.m. ET deadline before agreeing to the trade.
In return, the Rockets get guard Avery Bradley, forward Kelly Olynyk and 2022 first-round swap rights. Those swap rights include the Brooklyn Nets' pick.
AirP. wrote:DayofMourning wrote:What it does do is put Bam and Herro into potential lead scorer roles which helps them develop. It also is almost guaranteed to put the Heat in the lottery next year. At that point you have Bam, Herro, Precious, KZ, Wiseman, picks 7 and 14 in 2021, and another lotto in 2022. You have a ton of cap space. That's how a team can go from being the 2020 Nets to the 2021 Nets.
Are you forgetting the Oladipo trade? How pissed would Heat fans be to tank, get a top pick and then watch Houston swap it with Brooklyn's which could be around the end of the first round.Although sources told ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski earlier this week that there was widespread confidence Houston would trade Oladipo, the teams went right up to the 3 p.m. ET deadline before agreeing to the trade.
In return, the Rockets get guard Avery Bradley, forward Kelly Olynyk and 2022 first-round swap rights. Those swap rights include the Brooklyn Nets' pick.
