The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ)

[Ghetto Gospel]

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RJ the least efficient in the paint lol

future kawhi leonard btw lol

randle also least efficient in the midrange too

[Jimmit79]

The uncomfortable truth about RJ is that he will demand 25-30 mil in 2 years same as Jalen brown and Tatum got.

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[Chanel Bomber]

Wait? Randle and RJ aren't as efficient as the best players in the NBA or as players on stacked teams? That is amazing.

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

[Chanel Bomber]

We're seeing the difference between a superstar and what Randle is with how Embiid has the Hawks looking completely helpless to guard him.

People also disregard teams like the Hornets for some reason, they have more talent than us to begin with and they're adding more. They get even a halfway decent center and they could pass us up too.

True shooting percentage this past regular season:

Sixers: Embiid 63.6%, Simmons 58.4%, Harris 59.7%
Nets. Durant 66.6% (think it's a coincidence if you want to), Harden 61.9%, Irving 61.4%
Bucks: Antetokounmpo 63.3%, Holiday 59.2%, Middleton 58.8%
Hawks: Young 58.9%, Bogdanovic 61.6%

ALL above league average (57.2%) in scoring efficiency. ALL of them.

Now look at the Knicks:
Randle 56.7% BELOW AVERAGE
Barrett 53.5% BELOW AVERAGE
Rose 56.5% BELOW AVERAGE

This is very sad and very concerning. Just don't be surprised when the Knicks miss the playoffs next year. We do not have the foundation to compete with any of these teams, let alone when the Knicks regress to the mean.

We need more efficient scorers.

Embiid is arguably the 2nd or 3rd most talented player in the NBA. SImmons and Harris would both be, at least, the 2nd most talented player on the Knicks.
Durant had Harden AND Irving, Harden had Durant and Irving, Irving had Durant and Harden. Any of these 3 guys would be without question the best player on this team.
Greek Freak is arguably the 2nd or 3rd most talented player in the NBA. Holiday and Middleton would both be the 2nd most talented player on the Knicks.
Young is one of the most efficient volume scorers in the NBA and had a team that was built by the same architect that built the record breaking Warriors championship teams, a team that accentuated his strengths and hid his weaknesses about as well as you possibly can.

We need more talent. It's easy to be more efficient if you actually can get the ball in better shooting situations, not have the opposing teams thrown 3 guys at you every time you touch the ball cause you don't have to worry about the other players on the team and when you just have more other guys on the team that are just way way better.

You take any of those guys and put them on the Knicks and my guess is that everyone else would become more efficient on offense cause everyone else then don't need to be relied upon to do more than they should be relied upon offensively.

I don't understand whether your post is expanding on mine or if it's meant to contradict it.

Granted we need more talent all across the roster, you're right. But that concerns our top-end talent too. It's clearly where we most need to upgrade imo, whether that means we need to push Randle and RJ further down the totem pole or trade either one or both of them to improve the roster.

You say it's easy to be more efficient when you don't have opposing teams throw 3 guys at you. Sorry but Embiid, Young and Giannis receive just as much attention as - if not more than - Randle, and they still manage to score efficiently. There is no excuse for Randle to fall below league-average in TS%. These franchise talents are just more efficient than Julius, and that poses the question of Julius's value in the NBA. Him making an All-NBA team is highly misleading in my opinion.

[cgf]

Wait? Randle and RJ aren't as efficient as the best players in the NBA or as players on stacked teams? That is amazing.

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

That only tells us that year-2-RJ & a first time star Randle weren't good enough with Payton as their PG & Nerlens Noel their C for too much of the season. That could change as RJ adds to his game, Julius learns from this season, and we build up the supporting cast...especially if we bring in someone like Lavine or Sexton, who could create their own shot consistently.

Not that I think even if that happens we'd be winning a chip any time soon unless everyone hit the upper limits of their ceilings. But the #s from this season are likely being suppressed by things that'll change naturally with time & reasonable improvements to the supporting casts...and how much those variables are affecting their #s is a big question mark right now.

[NewKnicks]

Haha. Obviously I meant Malik. It's late. I do miss Michael, tho.

I know you did. If you're going to lose games, you got a have at least one colorful character on your team. I, for one, will be forever grateful for the beatdown he put on Melo on his first return to the Garden with OKC. Especially since Greenie was still with us back then. I thoroughly enjoyed watching her eat crow. (I betcha that was a good wake-up call for Melo which - eventually - precipitated the evolution of his game. And, in all seriousness, I was happy to see an old man make the necessary adjustments to become a more team-oriented player. Of course, it never happens when the player is with US.

Beas was kind like Free Candy, except better.

Vernon Maxwell comes to mind. Maybe he was before your time.

Rodman is a great example. I watched a lot of Bulls back then, and he was must watch TV every game. He usually didn't disappoint either with some antic he pulled. That said, he was a great, great player in his own right. The reason it worked is because the Bulls had MJ and Phil to keep Rodman in line.

I actually hung out with Rodman twice. He was the coolest dude. We used to go to this specific club, and he would be there in the middle of the crowd just having fun. As opposed to Scottie and MJ, who were always roped off everywhere they went.

What's cool about Beas is that he's actually made a great career for himself. People can rip on him all they want, but he's still in the league cashing checks. And good for him. It's so fun to have that type of character on your roster.

I don't remember a lot about Vernon, other than he was a pretty good player. And I think a great defender? I might be wrong about that.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Wait? Randle and RJ aren't as efficient as the best players in the NBA or as players on stacked teams? That is amazing.

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

That only tells us that year-2-RJ & a first time star Randle weren't good enough with Payton as their PG & Nerlens Noel their C for too much of the season. That could change as RJ adds to his game, Julius learns from this season, and we build up the supporting cast...especially if we bring in someone like Lavine or Sexton, who could create their own shot consistently.

Not that I think even if that happens we'd be winning a chip any time soon unless everyone hit the upper limits of their ceilings. But the #s from this season are likely being suppressed by things that'll change naturally with time & reasonable improvements to the supporting casts...and how much those variables are affecting their #s is a big question mark right now.

were they good with Rose as their PG in the playoffs?

[Kampuchea]

Wait? Randle and RJ aren't as efficient as the best players in the NBA or as players on stacked teams? That is amazing.

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

We aren’t a stacked team because we don’t have one or two top players, that is the case regardless of Randle and RJ.

Commentary on a twenty year old RJ being inefficient is even more meaningless given he’s nowhere near a finished product.

I don’t view either of them as a top player on a top team, but they can both be a significant part of a top team.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Wait? Randle and RJ aren't as efficient as the best players in the NBA or as players on stacked teams? That is amazing.

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

We aren’t a stacked team because we don’t have one or two top players, that is the case regardless of Randle and RJ.

Commentary on a twenty year old RJ being inefficient is even more meaningless given he’s nowhere near a finished product.

I don’t view either of them as a top player on a top team, but they can both be a significant part of a top team.

95% of teams are 1 or 2 top players away from becoming a championship contender. Saying RJ and Randle can be significant parts of a top team isn't saying much because a good amount of players in this league can be just that. Look at the Lakers last year: their significant parts were Alex Caruso, KCP and Dwight Howard. The Nets this year: Joe Harris, Bruce Brown, Blake Griffin, Jeff Green.

Ultimately it's the stars that drive the bandwagon. Lebron & AD, Kyrie & KD, everything else is pretty fungible

[cgf]

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

That only tells us that year-2-RJ & a first time star Randle weren't good enough with Payton as their PG & Nerlens Noel their C for too much of the season. That could change as RJ adds to his game, Julius learns from this season, and we build up the supporting cast...especially if we bring in someone like Lavine or Sexton, who could create their own shot consistently.

Not that I think even if that happens we'd be winning a chip any time soon unless everyone hit the upper limits of their ceilings. But the #s from this season are likely being suppressed by things that'll change naturally with time & reasonable improvements to the supporting casts...and how much those variables are affecting their #s is a big question mark right now.

were they good with Rose as their PG in the playoffs?

Not having looked it up, I'm just gunna guess that they were not but that sample size was minuscule and they were already playing awful, which makes it even less representative of their all-situations #s that were being discussed.

IIRC they were a lot more efficient with Rose during the regular season than they were with Elf...which would lend support to the impact of the supporting-cast variable. But even that wouldn't really give us much insight into what will happen if we add an Elf-upgrade and another shot-creator like Lavine/Sexton...especially if Randle & Barrett improve further as one would hope*.


*moreso referring to Barrett there given that he's just 20 years old and has shown a penchant for putting effort into improving his game over the offseason. Though Julius still has some low-hanging fruit with his skillset that he can polish and some simple experience-based adjustments to make that would improve his game as well...and his work ethic is no joke either, so it's quite possible that we will see those improvements/adjustments from Julius too.

[cgf]

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

We aren’t a stacked team because we don’t have one or two top players, that is the case regardless of Randle and RJ.

Commentary on a twenty year old RJ being inefficient is even more meaningless given he’s nowhere near a finished product.

I don’t view either of them as a top player on a top team, but they can both be a significant part of a top team.

95% of teams are 1 or 2 top players away from becoming a championship contender. Saying RJ and Randle can be significant parts of a top team isn't saying much because a good amount of players in this league can be just that. Look at the Lakers last year: their significant parts were Alex Caruso, KCP and Dwight Howard. The Nets this year: Joe Harris, Bruce Brown, Blake Griffin, Jeff Green.

Ultimately it's the stars that drive the bandwagon. Lebron & AD, Kyrie & KD, everything else is pretty fungible

True, but there's a difference between already having a Caruso + Kuzma laying around & already having a Lowry + Siakam. We don't know yet where on that spectrum Julius & RJ will land.

[Ghetto Gospel]

We aren’t a stacked team because we don’t have one or two top players, that is the case regardless of Randle and RJ.

Commentary on a twenty year old RJ being inefficient is even more meaningless given he’s nowhere near a finished product.

I don’t view either of them as a top player on a top team, but they can both be a significant part of a top team.

95% of teams are 1 or 2 top players away from becoming a championship contender. Saying RJ and Randle can be significant parts of a top team isn't saying much because a good amount of players in this league can be just that. Look at the Lakers last year: their significant parts were Alex Caruso, KCP and Dwight Howard. The Nets this year: Joe Harris, Bruce Brown, Blake Griffin, Jeff Green.

Ultimately it's the stars that drive the bandwagon. Lebron & AD, Kyrie & KD, everything else is pretty fungible

True, but there's a difference between already having a Caruso + Kuzma laying around & already having a Lowry + Siakam. And Julius & RJ could well turn out to be our Lowry + Siakam if we add our Kawhi in a few years.

I dont believe in that formula at the moment because I believe the landscape of the East has changed significantly since the Raptors when they had a chance to add Kawhi. Philly, Milwaukee and Brooklyn are now way better than any of those East teams back then were. Adding 1 superstar still doesn't push us over the top of any of those teams, especially not Brooklyn who are murdering the Bucks even without Harden and the Bucks murdered the Heat

[cgf]

95% of teams are 1 or 2 top players away from becoming a championship contender. Saying RJ and Randle can be significant parts of a top team isn't saying much because a good amount of players in this league can be just that. Look at the Lakers last year: their significant parts were Alex Caruso, KCP and Dwight Howard. The Nets this year: Joe Harris, Bruce Brown, Blake Griffin, Jeff Green.

Ultimately it's the stars that drive the bandwagon. Lebron & AD, Kyrie & KD, everything else is pretty fungible

True, but there's a difference between already having a Caruso + Kuzma laying around & already having a Lowry + Siakam. And Julius & RJ could well turn out to be our Lowry + Siakam if we add our Kawhi in a few years.

I dont believe in that formula at the moment because I believe the landscape of the East has changed significantly since the Raptors when they had a chance to add Kawhi. Philly, Milwaukee and Brooklyn are now way better than any of those East teams back then were. Adding 1 superstar still doesn't push us over the top of any of those teams, especially not Brooklyn who are murdering the Bucks even without Harden and the Bucks murdered the Heat

Kawhi pushed the raptors over a Warriors team that was more loaded than anyone currently is in the east, with one injury.

And again we don't know just how good RJ and Julius* will end up being with further improvement from them and being put in that better environment...which was my main point.


*or the shot-creator we should add to form a good-but-not-title-caliber big 3 with RJ & Julius, while we wait for the new-Kawhi-trade that we're hoping for...as, if I had to bet on it, Julius would end up our DeRozan in a trade for Zion; if this is the path that our FO pursues & it works out our way.

[Ghetto Gospel]

That only tells us that year-2-RJ & a first time star Randle weren't good enough with Payton as their PG & Nerlens Noel their C for too much of the season. That could change as RJ adds to his game, Julius learns from this season, and we build up the supporting cast...especially if we bring in someone like Lavine or Sexton, who could create their own shot consistently.

Not that I think even if that happens we'd be winning a chip any time soon unless everyone hit the upper limits of their ceilings. But the #s from this season are likely being suppressed by things that'll change naturally with time & reasonable improvements to the supporting casts...and how much those variables are affecting their #s is a big question mark right now.

were they good with Rose as their PG in the playoffs?

Not having looked it up, I'm just gunna guess that they were not but that sample size was minuscule and they were already playing awful, which makes it even less representative of their all-situations #s that were being discussed.

IIRC they were a lot more efficient with Rose during the regular season than they were with Elf...which would lend support to the impact of the supporting-cast variable. But even that wouldn't really give us much insight into what will happen if we add an Elf-upgrade and another shot-creator like Lavine/Sexton...especially if Randle & Barrett improve further as one would hope*.


*moreso referring to Barrett there given that he's just 20 years old and has shown a penchant for putting effort into improving his game over the offseason. Though Julius still has some low-hanging fruit with his skillset that he can polish and some simple experience-based adjustments to make that would improve his game as well...and his work ethic is no joke either, so it's quite possible that we will see those improvements/adjustments from Julius too.

You can also refer to the second half of the season when Elf got his minutes cut significantly then at the end when he was only playing ~10 mpg. You can check Randle and RJs splits on this, they didn't become a more efficient player, though everyone thought elf was holding them back. RJ did have a horrendous start to the season but that was because he couldn't hit a shot back then.

I am of the opinion that if you need someone to create a shot for you to be efficient on offense, you are no star. RJ still has some room to grow though I am not super hopeful on what he can be and Julius is hitting age 27 which is around the time when someone with his body frame, style and type of game should peak from an athletic and skill standpoint imo as it's around the time when Lebron peaked

[NewKnicks]

...And this is where the eye test comes up and becomes more important the analytics... look, it’s not quantifiable, but Julius performance in the playoffs was all mental, he was frazzled by the moment... The guy was passing up good shots (open threes, shots he normally takes) and taking bad shots and making unforced errors.

And if you look at Julius career he is unique in that he grows from his errors, year to year more than the average player. Randle is a stock, I would continue to buy on... but not as franchise leader but definitely a number 2, we’re really one piece away from contention.

I really don't get this 'one piece away' take either. Let's take the best possible example. KD. If KD was on this team with Randle and RJ we would be contending for the title? I don't think so. And I chose the BEST possible option. How about Booker? Embiid? Harden? Giannis? Kawhi? Dame? Pick one, and then tell me we'd be competing for a championship with this roster.

I’m thinking more of a superstar wing, (Not KD) with a competent point guard and provided we didn’t gut the roster to acquire one...I think so

Booker, Harden, or Dame paired with Randle I think that puts us top 3 in the East

We'd be a lot better, don't get me wrong. I guess maybe we'd be in the top 3.

The Nets would still be a lot better than us with KD and Irving (and other role players). The Suns have a stacked roster and we don't. You need to look at the rosters overall, and all the top teams would still have a lot more talent than we have if we had a Booker or Harden. Booker wasn't successful without Chris Paul. Dame and Portland lost in the first round with more talent than we have. The Nets win without Harden. We would not be better than a second round fail if we had any of those players.

I'm not trying to be super harsh on the Knicks, it's just reality. We're very short on talent, and one of those guys are not putting us over the top at the moment. Even if we signed Lonzo, for example in addition. We would not be good enough.

[Ghetto Gospel]

True, but there's a difference between already having a Caruso + Kuzma laying around & already having a Lowry + Siakam. And Julius & RJ could well turn out to be our Lowry + Siakam if we add our Kawhi in a few years.

I dont believe in that formula at the moment because I believe the landscape of the East has changed significantly since the Raptors when they had a chance to add Kawhi. Philly, Milwaukee and Brooklyn are now way better than any of those East teams back then were. Adding 1 superstar still doesn't push us over the top of any of those teams, especially not Brooklyn who are murdering the Bucks even without Harden and the Bucks murdered the Heat

Kawhi pushed the raptors over the Warriors with one injury, and again we don't know just how good RJ and Julius* will end up being with further improvement from them and being put in that better environment...which was my main point.


*or the shot-creator we should add to form a solid but not title winning big 3 with RJ & Julius while we wait for that new-Kawhi-trade we're hoping for...as, if I had to bet on it, Julius would up our DeRozan in a trade for Zion; if this is the path that our FO pursues & it works out our way.

Joel Embiid was fat and out of shape then, he got his ass in shape finally this season. This isn't the same 76ers team that those Raptors beat in 7. Brooklyn would need 2 injuries for us to beat them. Do you really think RJ and Zion is a championship formula?

[Chanel Bomber]

That only tells us that year-2-RJ & a first time star Randle weren't good enough with Payton as their PG & Nerlens Noel their C for too much of the season. That could change as RJ adds to his game, Julius learns from this season, and we build up the supporting cast...especially if we bring in someone like Lavine or Sexton, who could create their own shot consistently.

Not that I think even if that happens we'd be winning a chip any time soon unless everyone hit the upper limits of their ceilings. But the #s from this season are likely being suppressed by things that'll change naturally with time & reasonable improvements to the supporting casts...and how much those variables are affecting their #s is a big question mark right now.

were they good with Rose as their PG in the playoffs?

Not having looked it up, I'm just gunna guess that they were not but that sample size was minuscule and they were already playing awful, which makes it even less representative of their all-situations #s that were being discussed.

IIRC they were a lot more efficient with Rose during the regular season than they were with Elf...which would lend support to the impact of the supporting-cast variable. But even that wouldn't really give us much insight into what will happen if we add an Elf-upgrade and another shot-creator like Lavine/Sexton...especially if Randle & Barrett improve further as one would hope*.


*moreso referring to Barrett there given that he's just 20 years old and has shown a penchant for putting effort into improving his game over the offseason. Though Julius still has some low-hanging fruit with his skillset that he can polish and some simple experience-based adjustments to make that would improve his game as well...and his work ethic is no joke either, so it's quite possible that we will see those improvements/adjustments from Julius too.

Having Rose didn't impact Randle's scoring efficiency, because Randle generally gave up the ball (to his credit) when teams doubled off Payton during the regular season. Playing with a better point guard - a scoring one at that - only negated his playmaking, without actually helping his scoring efficiency. Perhaps Chris Paul is the one player who could get him easier shots. But what is he then? A spot-up shooter? We all know he's not a good finisher at the rim, and the paint will be clogged so long as he doesn't play the 5.

I'm thinking Randle has a ceiling as a player, no matter which role you play him in, and that he might actually put a ceiling on his team. I'm not saying he's not a keeper. But he definitely shouldn't be viewed as untouchable.

[Oscirus]

Wait? Randle and RJ aren't as efficient as the best players in the NBA or as players on stacked teams? That is amazing.

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

We arent a stacked team because we've spent the past two decades sucking and nobody worth a damn wanted to spend that time on this team. Expecting rj and randle who made huge leaps beyond anything that we couldve expected to all of a sudden be great with good efficiency numbers is beyond absurd. Especially when you take into account that they spent all year without a starting pg and most of the year without a legit starting center. Knicks spend most of the year playing 3/4 on 5 ball and people are expecting them to be efficient.

[cgf]

I dont believe in that formula at the moment because I believe the landscape of the East has changed significantly since the Raptors when they had a chance to add Kawhi. Philly, Milwaukee and Brooklyn are now way better than any of those East teams back then were. Adding 1 superstar still doesn't push us over the top of any of those teams, especially not Brooklyn who are murdering the Bucks even without Harden and the Bucks murdered the Heat

Kawhi pushed the raptors over the Warriors with one injury, and again we don't know just how good RJ and Julius* will end up being with further improvement from them and being put in that better environment...which was my main point.


*or the shot-creator we should add to form a solid but not title winning big 3 with RJ & Julius while we wait for that new-Kawhi-trade we're hoping for...as, if I had to bet on it, Julius would up our DeRozan in a trade for Zion; if this is the path that our FO pursues & it works out our way.

Joel Embiid was fat and out of shape then, he got his ass in shape finally this season. This isn't the same 76ers team that those Raptors beat in 7. Brooklyn would need 2 injuries for us to beat them. Do you really think RJ and Zion is a championship formula?

You ignored my point again...but to answer your question; who knows

Do I think that in 3 (or more) years, a Zion, RJ & Lavine/Sexton/etc. big 3 could win a title with a good supporting cast? Yes, I think that could be a winning formula...but there are a lot of moving pieces that can change whether that actually would end up in a ring for us or not.

Things like: Zion, RJ, & Lavine/Sexton/whoever's further development; the quality of supporting cast we would be able to put around them; the state of the field in the mid-to-late 2020s; whether any of our picks between now & then can have a Rondo like impact as a surprise star on top of our big 3; etc.

[Chanel Bomber]

Wait? Randle and RJ aren't as efficient as the best players in the NBA or as players on stacked teams? That is amazing.

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

We arent a stacked team because we've spent the past two decades sucking and nobody worth a damn wanted to spend that time on this team. Expecting rj and randle who made huge leaps beyond anything that we couldve expected to all of a sudden be great with good efficiency numbers is beyond absurd. Especially when you take into account that they spent all year without a starting pg and most of the year without a legit starting center. Knicks spend most of the year playing 3/4 on 5 ball and people are expecting them to be efficient.

I don't expect them to be efficient. I never blamed them for being inefficient.

I don't think playing with a competent point guard will generate this dramatic uptick in scoring efficiency for Randle and RJ. Will it help? Sure, absolutely. Will it turn them into efficient players? Probably not.

You mention the center position but the fact that Randle can't or doesn't play the 5 is a problem, since it forces us to play a non-shooting big to protect the rim on the other end.