[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs

[Odinn21]

rewarding kawhi for not getting injured in a 2016 conference finals that he didnt play is a hypothetical that i dont get

It’s your hypothetical. Not mine. If that’s what you take away from postseason injuries being dependant on rounds for value against not being injured, there’s not much I’d say more.

[Dutchball97]

How do you guys view D-Rob disappointing in a lot of play-off series during his prime? It sounds like D-Rob is getting the "by default" treatment but out of the 6 series he played in during the 94-96 stretch the only two series he didn't play worse than his usual level were the Lakers series in 95 and the Suns in 96.

Giannis gets a lot of flack for not living up to his potential in the play-offs but I'm having a hard time understanding why D-Rob does not get that same treatment for consistently underperforming in the post-season. It isn't like he was terrible but when Kawhi steps up his game in the play-offs every single year, while D-Rob doesn't have a year where he didn't somehow disappoint I've got to think there are a lot of people going with D-Rob just because that sounds like the right thing.

My main gripe against him here is probably how he got outclassed by Karl Malone in both 94 and 96, while Karl Malone isn't even a particularly good play-off performer himself.

[HeartBreakKid]

Karl Malone has John Stockton setting him up and a better team in general.

Robinson is a much better defender than Giannis, and he has more scoring tools that scale off good teammates (ie, twin towers with Duncan in 99). His scoring drop off doesn't matter as much. And there isn't much of a double standard, as Robinson usually DOES automatically get pegged down a tier because of his lack of post season success. If people were letting him off the hook for that then he would be ranked higher than Duncan, considering he is a better RS scorer.

Robinson was matched up against Mutumbo and Olajuwon in 95. Perhaps his scoring ability isn't good enough to look good against them, but I reckon a lot of guys can't.

[Dutchball97]

Karl Malone has John Stockton setting him up and a better team in general.

Robinson is a much better defender than Giannis, and he has more scoring tools that scale off good teammates (ie, twin towers with Duncan in 99). His scoring drop off doesn't matter as much. And there isn't much of a double standard, as Robinson usually DOES automatically get pegged down a tier because of his lack of post season success. If people were letting him off the hook for that then he would be ranked higher than Duncan, considering he is a better RS scorer.

Robinson was matched up against Mutumbo and Olajuwon in 95. Perhaps his scoring ability isn't good enough to look good against them, but I reckon a lot of guys can't.

I don't intend to completely dismiss Robinson's performance against strong defenders but Kawhi was always able to be an effective scorer no matter who was guarding him. D-Rob is also an amazing defender but Kawhi won 2 DPOY awards back to back, it isn't like there was a massive gap on that end either. I think it's a close comparison nontheless but I felt like people were maybe a bit too eager to disregard Kawhi here.

[70sFan]

Karl Malone has John Stockton setting him up and a better team in general.

Robinson is a much better defender than Giannis, and he has more scoring tools that scale off good teammates (ie, twin towers with Duncan in 99). His scoring drop off doesn't matter as much. And there isn't much of a double standard, as Robinson usually DOES automatically get pegged down a tier because of his lack of post season success. If people were letting him off the hook for that then he would be ranked higher than Duncan, considering he is a better RS scorer.

Robinson was matched up against Mutumbo and Olajuwon in 95. Perhaps his scoring ability isn't good enough to look good against them, but I reckon a lot of guys can't.

I don't intend to completely dismiss Robinson's performance against strong defenders but Kawhi was always able to be an effective scorer no matter who was guarding him. D-Rob is also an amazing defender but Kawhi won 2 DPOY awards back to back, it isn't like there was a massive gap on that end either. I think it's a close comparison nontheless but I felt like people were maybe a bit too eager to disregard Kawhi here.

I agree that we should get more discussiom between Kawhi and Admiral (I focused more on Gervin's case so far) but to be honest, I think there is a huge gap between Kawhi and Robinson on defense.

[Dutchball97]

Karl Malone has John Stockton setting him up and a better team in general.

Robinson is a much better defender than Giannis, and he has more scoring tools that scale off good teammates (ie, twin towers with Duncan in 99). His scoring drop off doesn't matter as much. And there isn't much of a double standard, as Robinson usually DOES automatically get pegged down a tier because of his lack of post season success. If people were letting him off the hook for that then he would be ranked higher than Duncan, considering he is a better RS scorer.

Robinson was matched up against Mutumbo and Olajuwon in 95. Perhaps his scoring ability isn't good enough to look good against them, but I reckon a lot of guys can't.

I don't intend to completely dismiss Robinson's performance against strong defenders but Kawhi was always able to be an effective scorer no matter who was guarding him. D-Rob is also an amazing defender but Kawhi won 2 DPOY awards back to back, it isn't like there was a massive gap on that end either. I think it's a close comparison nontheless but I felt like people were maybe a bit too eager to disregard Kawhi here.

I agree that we should get more discussiom between Kawhi and Admiral (I focused more on Gervin's case so far) but to be honest, I think there is a huge gap between Kawhi and Robinson on defense.

The issue is mostly that the center position has traditionally been the most important on the defensive end. The impact a big can have defensively will likely always be bigger than a wing or especially guards. Things are changing a bit though as perimeter defense becomes more important in this era and Kawhi at his defensive peak was one of the very best perimeter defenders in league history. I look at it as both were among the elite of defenders at their position and whichever position can provide more depends on era as well.

[Odinn21]

Giannis gets a lot of flack for not living up to his potential in the play-offs but I'm having a hard time understanding why D-Rob does not get that same treatment for consistently underperforming in the post-season.

This part caught my eye. Robinson gets criticism for his offensive shortcomings in the playoffs. He was a goat level regular season player. I mean quite literally. If we look at regular season play only and postseason play only, Robinson is in the same tier with LeBron James for regular season play. You can have Robinson and bunch of nobodies and he'd get you a guaranteed postseason spot with 50+ wins, easily. Yet he's usually ranked in 15-20 range because there were multiple occasions he couldn't keep up with his usual offensive level in the playoffs.
(It was also related to his style. Robinson is one of those players who'd benefit from playing in the '10s or the '20s because he was a high post loving big in a low post focused era. Defenders were allowed to put their hands on their matchups and you had to turn your back to force your way into high value positions.)

As I mentioned in my vote post, Robinson did relatively well in 1995 playoffs, better than how well he did in 1994 and 1996. His performance against the Rockets and Olajuwon usually gets way too much criticism considering Rodman was actively refusing to double Olajuwon, the spacing and the coaching around Robinson was not as good, and it was still a close series ending in 6. Not that I'm saying it was a great series from Robinson. But his performance was better than what the drop in his numbers would suggest.

Another things to consider about Robinson vs. Leonard;
Leonard was 24 in 2016. Robinson was a rookie in his 24 and he did not have postseason resilience issues. He took Adelman's Blazers to a game 7 in the 2nd round with good performance.
1990 Robinson vs. 2016 Leonard? Going by regular season performance and postseason performance, especially by numbers, 1990 Robinson as a worse player than his peak did not suffer as he did later. How does that comparison look? Or 1991 Robinson who busted his .ss with 26/14/2/2/4 on .760 ts to lose in the 1st round. It was not a performance we can blame it on him.
With the arguments being made against Robinson's postseason resilience issues, I think sometimes he gets too much flak if anything because sometimes arguments look like they're being made to satisfy a certain narrative (not that I'm saying that's wrong, just too much focus on one single part) and I'm saying this as someone literally posted "Giannis Antetokounmpo is the modern day David Robinson confirmed" on this very message board a couple of days ago.

[HeartBreakKid]

Karl Malone has John Stockton setting him up and a better team in general.

Robinson is a much better defender than Giannis, and he has more scoring tools that scale off good teammates (ie, twin towers with Duncan in 99). His scoring drop off doesn't matter as much. And there isn't much of a double standard, as Robinson usually DOES automatically get pegged down a tier because of his lack of post season success. If people were letting him off the hook for that then he would be ranked higher than Duncan, considering he is a better RS scorer.

Robinson was matched up against Mutumbo and Olajuwon in 95. Perhaps his scoring ability isn't good enough to look good against them, but I reckon a lot of guys can't.

I don't intend to completely dismiss Robinson's performance against strong defenders but Kawhi was always able to be an effective scorer no matter who was guarding him. D-Rob is also an amazing defender but Kawhi won 2 DPOY awards back to back, it isn't like there was a massive gap on that end either. I think it's a close comparison nontheless but I felt like people were maybe a bit too eager to disregard Kawhi here.

Then perhaps that is where the disagreement is. I think there is a massive gap between Robinson and Leonard on defense.

[Statlanta]

Does David Robinson deserve more flack for having older more experienced players outperform him in a playoff series?
Malone played 4 seasons and 23 playoff games before Robinson played NBA basketball. Olajuwon played 6 seasons and 43 playoff games which includes a Finals run before Robinson entered the league.

I wouldn't promote Kawhi's playoff resiliency especially with his lack of playmaking despite being a perimeter player over Robinson just because he improves his scoring while David Robinson goes from being the best scorer, defender, rebounder and most available player on the team to a worse scorer.

[Dutchball97]

Karl Malone has John Stockton setting him up and a better team in general.

Robinson is a much better defender than Giannis, and he has more scoring tools that scale off good teammates (ie, twin towers with Duncan in 99). His scoring drop off doesn't matter as much. And there isn't much of a double standard, as Robinson usually DOES automatically get pegged down a tier because of his lack of post season success. If people were letting him off the hook for that then he would be ranked higher than Duncan, considering he is a better RS scorer.

Robinson was matched up against Mutumbo and Olajuwon in 95. Perhaps his scoring ability isn't good enough to look good against them, but I reckon a lot of guys can't.

I don't intend to completely dismiss Robinson's performance against strong defenders but Kawhi was always able to be an effective scorer no matter who was guarding him. D-Rob is also an amazing defender but Kawhi won 2 DPOY awards back to back, it isn't like there was a massive gap on that end either. I think it's a close comparison nontheless but I felt like people were maybe a bit too eager to disregard Kawhi here.

Then perhaps that is where the disagreement is. I think there is a massive gap between Robinson and Leonard on defense.

How though? If we're looking at career then of course but I don't think anyone can be seen as a massively better defender than peak back to back DPOY Kawhi. The only way that is possible if you rate big man defense massively over perimeter defense, which I find to be a bit of a hyperbole on this board sometimes.

[Dr Positivity]

Giannis gets a lot of flack for not living up to his potential in the play-offs but I'm having a hard time understanding why D-Rob does not get that same treatment for consistently underperforming in the post-season.

Robinson has been tagged a lot over the years for this

[falcolombardi]

rewarding kawhi for not getting injured in a 2016 conference finals that he didnt play is a hypothetical that i dont get

It’s your hypothetical. Not mine. If that’s what you take away from postseason injuries being dependant on rounds for value against not being injured, there’s not much I’d say more.

i just dont undwrstand the logic of it

we dont know if 2016 kawhi would have made conference finals in 2017 to be able of getting injured there

dont know if 2016 kawhi would have been healthy for 2016 conference finals if he made them

at the end of the way both players kept healthy and played exactly as long (full season + 2 rounds)

since 2016 kawhi didnt actually play a third round i dont see why in a comparision he would be rewarded for beung theorically healthy for it

hell, kawhi was a freak injury in 2017, is not like he was a unhealthy or unreliable player that needed to be load managed (yet), put 2016 kawhi in his place and he would be at zaza danger too, he was not a healthier player in 2016 or anythingh

[Odinn21]

i just dont undwrstand the logic of it

we dont know if 2016 kawhi would have made conference finals in 2017 to be able of getting injured there

dont know if 2016 kawhi would have been healthy for 2016 conference finals if he made them

at the end of the way both players kept healthy and played exactly as long (full season + 2 rounds)

since 2016 kawhi didnt actually play a third round i dont see why in a comparision he would be rewarded for beung theorically healthy for it

hell, kawhi was a freak injury in 2017, is not like he was a unhealthy or unreliable player that needed to be load managed (yet), put 2016 kawhi in his place and he would be at zaza danger too, he was not a healthier player in 2016 or anythingh

He was a healthier player in 2016. Most definitely. That's a very strange thing to say. Cause of an injury does not make it healthy or healthier.

You're trying to create a case against what happened with a bunch of what ifs that can not be supported in any way. I see what you're saying but you don't see the fundamental issue in your argument as I do. I explained why your approach is flawed on different levels. I even indulged your round based argument by pointing out that 2017 Spurs closing the 2nd round in Leonard's absence with 39 points blowout game and it was a thing that was not happening against the Thunder in 2016. There's a reason why the Spurs did not make the WCF in 2016. They faced a better team than 2017 Rockets.
You're just throwing ifs against a wall and see if one of them to stick at this point.

Full seasons + 2 rounds must be one of the most bizarre arguments I've ever seen. That argument blatantly overlooks the changing situations and environments. Like the things happened in the exactly the same way and the only changing factor was Leonard getting injured.
1989 Magic > 1990 Magic, too, right?..

That's it from me about this topic.

[falcolombardi]

i just dont undwrstand the logic of it

we dont know if 2016 kawhi would have made conference finals in 2017 to be able of getting injured there

dont know if 2016 kawhi would have been healthy for 2016 conference finals if he made them

at the end of the way both players kept healthy and played exactly as long (full season + 2 rounds)

since 2016 kawhi didnt actually play a third round i dont see why in a comparision he would be rewarded for beung theorically healthy for it

hell, kawhi was a freak injury in 2017, is not like he was a unhealthy or unreliable player that needed to be load managed (yet), put 2016 kawhi in his place and he would be at zaza danger too, he was not a healthier player in 2016 or anythingh

He was a healthier player in 2016. Most definitely. That's a very strange thing to say. Cause of an injury does not make it healthy or healthier.

You're trying to create a case against what happened with a bunch of what ifs that can not be supported in any way. I see what you're saying but you don't see the fundamental issue in your argument as I do. I explained why your approach is flawed on different levels. I even indulged your round based argument by pointing out that 2017 Spurs closing the 2nd round in Leonard's absence with 39 points blowout game and it was a thing that was not happening against the Thunder in 2016. There's a reason why the Spurs did not make the WCF in 2016. They faced a better team than 2017 Rockets.
You're just throwing ifs against a wall and see if one of them to stick at this point.

Full seasons + 2 rounds must be one of the most bizarre arguments I've ever seen. That argument blatantly overlooks the changing situations and environments. Like the things happened in the exactly the same way and the only changing factor was Leonard getting injured.
1989 Magic > 1990 Magic, too, right?..

That's it from me about this topic.

i guess we just wont agree here so better to drop the topic

[Owly]

I don't intend to completely dismiss Robinson's performance against strong defenders but Kawhi was always able to be an effective scorer no matter who was guarding him. D-Rob is also an amazing defender but Kawhi won 2 DPOY awards back to back, it isn't like there was a massive gap on that end either. I think it's a close comparison nontheless but I felt like people were maybe a bit too eager to disregard Kawhi here.

Then perhaps that is where the disagreement is. I think there is a massive gap between Robinson and Leonard on defense.

How though? If we're looking at career then of course but I don't think anyone can be seen as a massively better defender than peak back to back DPOY Kawhi. The only way that is possible if you rate big man defense massively over perimeter defense, which I find to be a bit of a hyperbole on this board sometimes.

The version you're voting for is coming off the back of those awards, not the player that earned them (leaving aside whether defensive perceptions and awards are won in year, or themselves or themselves lagging and based on prior achievements, because, imo, not so much in Leonard's case for the DPoYs - which isn't to comment on whether he merited them versus others). Spurs defended a lot better with him off the floor for your chosen year https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/2173/onoff#tab-team_efficiency. It's a very noisy measure. NBAshotcharts RAPM (I don't know the "best" RAPM source) has him as a small defensive negative. But if you think there's any visible signal whatsoever to had in single year "impact" stats and you don't see a massive gap between Robinson, one of the greatest defenders ever, and even the most optimistic interpretation of that year's Leonard ... I don't see how you square that circle.

And that's just on a rate basis, with Robinson also looking at at least 500 extra minutes.

And whilst playoff raise an interesting debate on how to account for health (and in general then cost of poor play in latter rounds which) any vision of a heavy playoff weighting (presumably because it's what decides the champions - and I vision I think you may have) that doesn't heavily ding Leonard's absence seems to require threading a very fine needle.

If talking earlier Leonard as it's the year others are voting he's among the best (perhaps the best) defender but faces a more significant minutes gap and, in my opinion, defense and production gaps.


In light of recent sports-based events though none of this matters.

[Doctor MJ]

1. '02-03 Tim Duncan - clear #1

2. '15-16 Kawhi Leonard - I believe in his defense, and I just have more faith in his offense than...

3. '94-95 David Robinson - so much respect for him as a franchise player

4. '78-79 George Gervin - incredible player, would be even more dangerous today

5. '04-05 Manu Ginobili - a magical year for a guy who was always per-minute epic

[Odinn21]

2. '15-16 Kawhi Leonard - I believe in his defense, and I just have more faith in his offense than...

3. '94-95 David Robinson - so much respect for him as a franchise player

Wow. I'm surprised by you as a KG-believer, picking Leonard over Robinson who was pretty much like KG in a sense. Goat level +/- data, great passing/defending combination well ahead of his time.
Curious why you went with Leonard tbh.

[70sFan]

1. 2002/03 Tim Duncan - clear choice to me, GOAT-level peak. HM to 2002 Duncan as well.

2. 1994/95 David Robinson - I entertain Kawhi's case here, but I can't forget about the massive gap in durability. Besides, Robinson was monster and Spurs didn't do a fair job of building around his strengths.

3. 2016/17 Kawhi Leonard - clear choice, I prefer more refined offensive version of Kawhi over slightly more consistent defensive one. I also don't love his performance against the Thunder in 2016.

4. 1977/78 George Gervin - to me it's quite clearly Iceman at this point - people highly underestimate him as just a low level player who could score very well. In reality, he was one of the best off-ball scorers I've ever seen, excellent athlete and decent defender in picked season. On top of that, his postseason performaces are nothing short of incredible in his prime - he was basically Durant-level scorer in playoffs without KD's rosters.

5. 2004/05 Manu Ginobili - amazing season with massive impact, but with limited role. I don't think people realize how much Manu's play was the result of playing off Duncan, who was still Spurs real MVP and the best player in the world. Still, can't deny the impact he had and I love watching him play.

HM: 1983 Artis Gilmore, 2013 Tony Parker, 2015 Boris Diaw

[homecourtloss]

Giannis gets a lot of flack for not living up to his potential in the play-offs but I'm having a hard time understanding why D-Rob does not get that same treatment for consistently underperforming in the post-season.

Robinson has been tagged a lot over the years for this

Yeah, DRob is the OG for getting flack for playoff lack of success.

[homecourtloss]

4. 1977/78 George Gervin - to me it's quite clearly Iceman at this point - people highly underestimate him as just a low level player who could score very well. In reality, he was one of the best off-ball scorers I've ever seen, excellent athlete and decent defender in picked season. On top of that, his postseason performaces are nothing short of incredible in his prime - he was basically Durant-level scorer in playoffs without KD's rosters.)

4. '78-79 George Gervin - incredible player, would be even more dangerous today

5) 1980 George Gervin - No strong opinion on when his peak was. Elite scorer and can shoot too. Pretty poor player outside of that, but putting the ball in the basket is still plenty useful. Don't think Tony Parker's playmaking ability makes up for it, and he's certainly not near Gervin as a scorer.

4. 1979 George Gervin
Pretty good regular season. 30/5/3 on +6.1 rts, led the team to #3 offense and overall #1 SRS. Secured his team a direct 2nd round spot.
26.1 ppg on +9.6 rts against the #2 defensive team in the 2nd round.
31.0 ppg on +6.3 rts against the defending champs in the Western CF.
29/6/3 on +8.1 rts in postseason.

I see the case for Gervin but nobody else a little wary about his defensive reputation and awful WOWYR even with limited datasets? I can see the argument that maybe he was t that bad defneively in his peak years 78 or 79.

https://backpicks.com/2016/09/06/ii-historical-impact-introducing-wowyr/