2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[Colbinii]

Hope they figure it out though. But yet another cautionary tale to those who think a team has this talented young core and a wide open window. They can close super fast.

Oh yeah.

I say it over in the Trades and Transaction board all the time when people propose trades because "Our star is 23, we need to add all the best 23 year olds available" when in reality, adding a 30 year old who can contribute for 2-3 years and is a better fit is likely the better idea.

This is the 3rd season where Jokic was a top 5 Playoff guy and his team hasn't performed well (Murray did fine last year). Doncic is in a similar situation over the past 2 years.

I will never get mad at a franchise for going for it. I loved the Jimmy Butler trade for the Timberwolves a few years ago as it was a trade to start winning.

[Bergmaniac]

Gary Harris was dreadful this season, I don't think he'd have helped Denver much if at all.

[falcolombardi]

the way nba works now is that if a star loses, specially big or one that is considered the best player on the series then he gets heat, no matter the context

is the environment basketball/nba discussion has became for better or worse (usually worse) since there is a ingrained fallacy that the greatest players in the world should "impide their will" regardless of circunstances

it can be a bit softer if the player is likeable or liked but ruthless otherwise

i blame hot take media people for it

[Texas Chuck]

the way nba works now is that if a star loses, specially big or one that is considered the best player on the series then he gets heat, no matter the context

is the environment basketball/nba discussion has became for better or worse (usually worse) since there is a ingrained fallacy that the greatest players in the world should "impide their will" regardless of circunstances

it can be a bit softer if the player is likeable or liked but ruthless otherwise

i blame hot take media people for it

Hot take media is some of it.
NBA twitter being such an echo chamber is a bigger part of it.
But the biggest part is people are lazy and don't really understand what they are seeing. So its easy. A team wins, their star must have been great and carried the day. A team loses, it must be his fault. Context is much harder and most people don't want to get to the truth, they just want an easy palatable explanation.

Worse still is those guys who go just a step further and look at how a player shot the ball. If he shot the ball well, he must have played great. If he didn't, then he absolutely sucked regardless of what else he did. Dirk still gets this from some for the 2011 Finals, but the most egregious example is 2015 LEbron who played out of his mind with just a bare bones roster around him yet all the talk was about his inefficient scoring.

This series is not in any way a referendum on Jokic MVP and you should ignore anyone who attempts to make it so.

[MO12msu]

the way nba works now is that if a star loses, specially big or one that is considered the best player on the series then he gets heat, no matter the context

is the environment basketball/nba discussion has became for better or worse (usually worse) since there is a ingrained fallacy that the greatest players in the world should "impide their will" regardless of circunstances

it can be a bit softer if the player is likeable or liked but ruthless otherwise

i blame hot take media people for it

According to the general board (since I don’t watch that crap) Skip Bayless has moved on to attacking Jokic since he can’t scream about LeBron in the postseason anymore. It’s ridiculous that a guy like that has such a big voice and influence. He has no discernible talent, zero knowledge of the sports he “analyzes,” and his claim to fame is straight up disparaging awesome players.

[falcolombardi]

the way nba works now is that if a star loses, specially big or one that is considered the best player on the series then he gets heat, no matter the context

is the environment basketball/nba discussion has became for better or worse (usually worse) since there is a ingrained fallacy that the greatest players in the world should "impide their will" regardless of circunstances

it can be a bit softer if the player is likeable or liked but ruthless otherwise

i blame hot take media people for it

According to the general board (since I don’t watch that crap) Skip Bayless has moved on to attacking Jokic since he can’t scream about LeBron in the postseason anymore. It’s ridiculous that a guy like that has such a big voice and influence. He has no discernible talent, zero knowledge of the sports he “analyzes,” and his claim to fame is straight up disparaging awesome players.

bayless needs someone popular to "have his legacy in the line" now that 36 years old lebron cannot be it

his schtick requires putting a player in question hyperbolically as if jis whole career is ruined by a loss so his fans tune in to get mad and haters tune in to agree

since durant is winning now and without harden and jokic is less famous he probably will go after kawhi now

[yoyoboy]

While I do agree that it's annoying how a series loss will result in the team's best player taking all the heat and that the Suns are just a more talented team at the end of the day, Jokic's defense was pretty awful last night. Booker and CP3 were getting wide open paint jumpers/floaters all night long when he played drop coverage, and when Phoenix's perimeter players forced Jokic to switch they quickly took advantage. Late in the game when Denver was scoring and trying to make a run, it felt like every basket on the other hand came through a breakdown involving Jokic because he couldn't recover fast enough or just couldn't really bother guys with contests.

Yeah with the right defensive supporting cast you can still succeed with him, but I mean Phoenix is effortlessly putting up a 125.7 ORTG in this series, and Jokic deserves a lot of blame regardless of who's out for Denver. Expecting Denver's guards to be able to battle around every screen and then still get a good contest while Jokic is standing literally a foot outside the restricted area just isn't going to result in a good defense, regardless of who those guards are. The big has to be playing far up enough so that the opposing guard in the screening action can't just shoot those shots like it's shooting practice in an open gym, and so they don't get an easy pass to a rolling big with momentum right to the rim. Joker's providing absolutely no resistance and giving him the excuse of "well he's in drop coverage" just doesn't cut it. The reason they're in drop coverage in the first place is because of his limitations and he's not even executing that game plan well because he's sitting so far back and solely providing half-hearted contests at the rim if the guard or big gets there.

[mikejames23]

A) The Nuggets are getting blasted and it's not a big surprise looking at the two rosters.

B) I think folks are going a bit far with the no help stuff. Murray is obviously a huge piece and him missing removes them from contender status for sure, but after that the only guy missing is Dozier. Morris/Rivers/Campazzo/Barton (limited) are all solid guards, this isn't a ???-year KAJ situation here.

C) In my opinion, the Nuggets are under-performing even given injury adjustments. Much of this is on MPJ, who's had an extremely rough series. But Jokic himself has also struggled to score efficiently with his help cut back (his volume has also been a bit unimpressive given what's called for without Murray).

I'm not gonna bury the dude, but this isn't a good series for Jokic at all.

Agree with some of this...

What's interesting is no one's picking the Nuggets to actually win it all even with Murray back? Nuggets FO needs to dig deep into this roster, or it's another Milwaukee Bucks situation.

[falcolombardi]

Hope they figure it out though. But yet another cautionary tale to those who think a team has this talented young core and a wide open window. They can close super fast.

Oh yeah.

I say it over in the Trades and Transaction board all the time when people propose trades because "Our star is 23, we need to add all the best 23 year olds available" when in reality, adding a 30 year old who can contribute for 2-3 years and is a better fit is likely the better idea.

This is the 3rd season where Jokic was a top 5 Playoff guy and his team hasn't performed well (Murray did fine last year). Doncic is in a similar situation over the past 2 years.

I will never get mad at a franchise for going for it. I loved the Jimmy Butler trade for the Timberwolves a few years ago as it was a trade to start winning.

nfl fans (and front offices?) understand ir better, they realize that the most valuable piece is their quarterback, so when they have. a good one on a rookie contract thet bring all the talent they can as fast as possible

the rookie contract of a QB becomes so valuable that quarterbacks are at their best winning window before their prine cause their contract is that much smaller

nba teams that have a star in rookie scale should be a lot more agressive with it to use that window

[MartinToVaught]

Hope they figure it out though. But yet another cautionary tale to those who think a team has this talented young core and a wide open window. They can close super fast.

Oh yeah.

I say it over in the Trades and Transaction board all the time when people propose trades because "Our star is 23, we need to add all the best 23 year olds available" when in reality, adding a 30 year old who can contribute for 2-3 years and is a better fit is likely the better idea.

This is the 3rd season where Jokic was a top 5 Playoff guy and his team hasn't performed well (Murray did fine last year). Doncic is in a similar situation over the past 2 years.

I will never get mad at a franchise for going for it. I loved the Jimmy Butler trade for the Timberwolves a few years ago as it was a trade to start winning.

nfl fans (and front offices?) understand ir better, they realize that the most valuable piece is their quarterback, so when they have. a good one on a rookie contract thet bring all the talent they can as fast as possible

the rookie contract of a QB becomes so valuable that quarterbacks are at their best winning window before their prine cause their contract is that much smaller

nba teams that have a star in rookie scale should be a lot more agressive with it to use that window

It's a two-way street, though. Not every star is willing to go play with a young guy over another proven star.

The Clippers have had it both ways, for example - CP3 was willing to go join Blake, but Kawhi made us trade away SGA.

With the NFL, this strategy is more viable because general managers are still allowed to do their jobs, not have it essentially done for them by superstars and their agents.

[Goudelock]

With the NFL, this strategy is more viable because general managers are still allowed to do their jobs, not have it essentially done for them by superstars and their agents.

Aaron Rodgers is currently testing this theory

[MO12msu]

I think it’s completely fair to question Jokic’s playoff defensive resiliency in the same way we question Giannis on offense.

[HeartBreakKid]

A) The Nuggets are getting blasted and it's not a big surprise looking at the two rosters.

B) I think folks are going a bit far with the no help stuff. Murray is obviously a huge piece and him missing removes them from contender status for sure, but after that the only guy missing is Dozier. Morris/Rivers/Campazzo/Barton (limited) are all solid guards, this isn't a ???-year KAJ situation here.

C) In my opinion, the Nuggets are under-performing even given injury adjustments. Much of this is on MPJ, who's had an extremely rough series. But Jokic himself has also struggled to score efficiently with his help cut back (his volume has also been a bit unimpressive given what's called for without Murray).

I'm not gonna bury the dude, but this isn't a good series for Jokic at all.

That doesnt look like much of a contending team.

[HeartBreakKid]

Hope they figure it out though. But yet another cautionary tale to those who think a team has this talented young core and a wide open window. They can close super fast.

Oh yeah.

I say it over in the Trades and Transaction board all the time when people propose trades because "Our star is 23, we need to add all the best 23 year olds available" when in reality, adding a 30 year old who can contribute for 2-3 years and is a better fit is likely the better idea.

This is the 3rd season where Jokic was a top 5 Playoff guy and his team hasn't performed well (Murray did fine last year). Doncic is in a similar situation over the past 2 years.

I will never get mad at a franchise for going for it. I loved the Jimmy Butler trade for the Timberwolves a few years ago as it was a trade to start winning.

People get way too crazy about what's "ideal" in the NBA and become one dimensional. I've seen people say players who are 27 years old are too "old" and don't fit the time line. Like a 27 year old is going to lose his legs with in a year.

[HeartBreakKid]

This might be the quietest home game of the playoffs. Can barely hear this Clipper crowd.

[MartinToVaught]

This might be the quietest home game of the playoffs. Can barely hear this Clipper crowd.

Sadly, we're not allowed to have a full home crowd until the 15th. COVID restrictions.

[eminence]

A) The Nuggets are getting blasted and it's not a big surprise looking at the two rosters.

B) I think folks are going a bit far with the no help stuff. Murray is obviously a huge piece and him missing removes them from contender status for sure, but after that the only guy missing is Dozier. Morris/Rivers/Campazzo/Barton (limited) are all solid guards, this isn't a ???-year KAJ situation here.

C) In my opinion, the Nuggets are under-performing even given injury adjustments. Much of this is on MPJ, who's had an extremely rough series. But Jokic himself has also struggled to score efficiently with his help cut back (his volume has also been a bit unimpressive given what's called for without Murray).

I'm not gonna bury the dude, but this isn't a good series for Jokic at all.

That doesnt look like much of a contending team.

Yes, that is literally what the sentence in front of the bolded says.

[HeartBreakKid]

A) The Nuggets are getting blasted and it's not a big surprise looking at the two rosters.

B) I think folks are going a bit far with the no help stuff. Murray is obviously a huge piece and him missing removes them from contender status for sure, but after that the only guy missing is Dozier. Morris/Rivers/Campazzo/Barton (limited) are all solid guards, this isn't a ???-year KAJ situation here.

C) In my opinion, the Nuggets are under-performing even given injury adjustments. Much of this is on MPJ, who's had an extremely rough series. But Jokic himself has also struggled to score efficiently with his help cut back (his volume has also been a bit unimpressive given what's called for without Murray).

I'm not gonna bury the dude, but this isn't a good series for Jokic at all.

That doesnt look like much of a contending team.

Yes, that is literally what the sentence in front of the bolded says.

I know but it seems like a weak statement. Like you're covering your bases to look more moderate.

You essentially listed an army of bench players half of which were not in the NBA last year, and the only one good enough to start is injured - that is not "solid" relative to what the Suns have, or to any good team really. Why do you think that is not a KAJ situation (I'm not really sure what this means as his career is long, but I'm guessing it means something bad).

If you acknowledge they're not a contending team and they're getting their ass whooped by a contending team - what's the problem? That seems to add up.

How good do you think they should be doing when their 2nd best player is playing poorly and the rest of the team are way worse than their opposition (serious question, you said they are underachieving - what should the series look like to meet their standard?)? If we take out Jokic and CP3, the Suns players are all much better than their counter parts.

[eminence]

That doesnt look like much of a contending team.

Yes, that is literally what the sentence in front of the bolded says.

I know but it seems like a weak statement. Like you're covering your bases to look more moderate.

You essentially listed an army of bench players half of which were not in the NBA last year, and the only one good enough to start is injured - that is not "solid" relative to what the Suns have, or to any good team really. Why do you think that is not a KAJ situation (I'm not really sure what this means as his career is long, but I'm guessing it means something bad).

If you acknowledge they're not a contending team and they're getting their ass whooped by a contending team - what's the problem? That seems to add up.

How good do you think they should be doing when their 2nd best player is playing poorly and the rest of the team are way worse than their opposition (serious question, you said they are underachieving - what should the series look like to meet their standard?)? If we take out Jokic and CP3, the Suns players are all much better than their counter parts.

It was a statement of moderation because the rest of the board is going aggressive with the hot-takes. We have folks in threads on the board calling the current Nuggets guards 'not nba players', hence my 'folks are going too far', so yes, I tried to moderate it from both directions. The Nuggets are obviously missing Murray who is a big part of their team and nobody should be expecting them to go deep without him. They also aren't left with unplayable trash. (Kareem had a series run where his backcourt went down and the guards he was left with were low quality NBA players)

3/4 of them were most certainly in the NBA last season. And the one who wasn't in the NBA (Campazzo) wasn't because he sucked, he would've been a fine NBA rotation guard last season too. They're all playable NBA guards.

There's a large gap between losing and losing by ~19 ppg.

Gordon is certainly at least Crowder's equal.

I would expect the Nuggets playing well to be able to make 1 to 2 games in the series close (whether or not they win is not a big deal either way), so far they're 0-3 on that front.

[HeartBreakKid]

Yes, that is literally what the sentence in front of the bolded says.

I know but it seems like a weak statement. Like you're covering your bases to look more moderate.

You essentially listed an army of bench players half of which were not in the NBA last year, and the only one good enough to start is injured - that is not "solid" relative to what the Suns have, or to any good team really. Why do you think that is not a KAJ situation (I'm not really sure what this means as his career is long, but I'm guessing it means something bad).

If you acknowledge they're not a contending team and they're getting their ass whooped by a contending team - what's the problem? That seems to add up.

How good do you think they should be doing when their 2nd best player is playing poorly and the rest of the team are way worse than their opposition (serious question, you said they are underachieving - what should the series look like to meet their standard?)? If we take out Jokic and CP3, the Suns players are all much better than their counter parts.

It was a statement of moderation because the rest of the board is going aggressive with the hot-takes. We have folks in threads on the board calling the current Nuggets guards 'not nba players', hence my 'folks are going too far', so yes, I tried to moderate it from both directions. The Nuggets are obviously missing Murray who is a big part of their team and nobody should be expecting them to go deep without him. They also aren't left with unplayable trash. (Kareem had a series run where his backcourt went down and the guards he was left with were low quality NBA players)

3/4 of them were most certainly in the NBA last season. And the one who wasn't in the NBA (Campazzo) wasn't because he sucked, he would've been a fine NBA rotation guard last season too. They're all playable NBA guards.

There's a large gap between losing and losing by ~19 ppg.

Gordon is certainly at least Crowder's equal.

I would expect the Nuggets playing well to be able to make 1 to 2 games in the series close (whether or not they win is not a big deal either way), so far they're 0-3 on that front.

When I said better than their counter parts I didn't mean positional counter part, more like 3rd best player, 5th best player etc. Gordon is what, the 3rd best player on the Nuggets on paper? He is worse than Ayton I would say.

But this brings me to another point, most of those players aren't playing well. Gordon isn't playing as good as Crowder is in that series for that example. Can Jokic do much about that?