Winning a Wiggins Trade

[JRoy]

Getting back to Sleep's question...I'm not sure there's a deal out there where we come out on top while receiving multiple rotational guys. Wiggins salary is mostly ballast for a trade, which is a shame because I really feel he fits great. If we're trading him (plus pieces) for non stars, we need to at least get back a Wiggins shaped player along with one or more of the following: a backup playmaker, a rangey 3/D guy, traditional warriors 5 (don't do anything stupid, jump, expect to play 20 mins a game) that (ideally) can pass and/or a scorer off the bench.

I don't have the answer, but here are some wild ideas that do work salary wise:

The 'Re-Arranging Chairs on the Titanic' Trade
Blazers Deal: Covington, Powell, Zach Collins

Warriors Deal: Wiggins and a future first

Why: Blazers need to just try something new. What they have isn't working. Powell is in the last year of his deal and will command $20M plus, Zach Collins is perma-injured and Covington was a non factor all year. They get potentially the best player in the deal (and one that can help solve their horrendous issues on defense) and can cut bait after a year once Wiggs is an expiring. The warriors get a ton of depth and, if Zach can stay healthy, I actually love watching him play. Would be perfect for us. Covington does some Wiggs things and Powell obviously is the crown jewel here. Could start or provide a massive spark off the bench.

The '**** Contract for **** Contract + More' Trade
Kings Deal: Buddy Hield and Delon Wright

Warriors Deal: Wiggins

Why: We wouldn't need to deal anything beyond Wigg to make this work and maybe Buddy looks different in a new environment. Delon is an expiring and would be excellent as a backup on our team playing important clutch time minutes.

The 'Let's At Least Make The Call' Trade
Boston Deals: Mahcus Smaht, Tristan Kardashian, Nesmith

Warriors Deal: Wiggins and our later first (maybe protected and reduces to two seconds over time)

Why: Tristan is being actively driven out of BOS. Nesmith hasn't gotten a fair shake. Smart is in every mock deal for 5 years now and they seem to be done with him. Marcus immediately replaces the defense from Wiggins, but the perceived negative value of Tristan and low output of Nesmith allows us to get a starting 5 (yes I think Tristan would be great in our system) and jack of all trades defender (Smart) for very little.

The '**** it, They've Gotta Change SOMETHING' Trade
Pelicans Deal: Adams, Lonzo, Jackson, Hart

Warriors Deal: Wiggins, S&T Oubre at current contract value, 1-2 second rounders

Why: It's clear the Pelicans need to make changes. IMO that should be their coach, but this at least give them a full overhaul with 'defense first' players on one ofthe worst defensive teams in the NBA. Jackson I think can do everything James does right now. Adams is a perceived negative contract (though expiring, so my argument holds minimal merit) and Hart/Ball are legitimate, helpful rotational guys.


Out of all those options, the Blazers and Boston deals are most appealing. Mostly because the Pelicans deal is unrealistic IMO. Once we start adding Wiseman in that does change the calculus, but IMO not in a significant enough way to warrant his inclusion. For example, throwing him in isn't swapping out Delon Wright for De'Aaron Fox.

Hard no for POR.

POR might go the trade for Wiggins and the MIN pick.

[FNQ]

And he's living off that season ever since. Yet, even in that year his efficiency dropped a lot in the playoffs. Let's not even get started on what a train wreck the next postseason was, and that he's now had his second consecutive regular season in which he couldn't score at even league average efficiency. Now he's out for 5 months, for what it's worth. I'll stand by it: there's a good chance that Siakam's contract is soon going to be considered negative in value.

Because he's not a top 2 option, he's a 3rd option that plays excellent defense. His value is being a great defender while providing supplementary scoring. Him failing at being a top 2 option does not change the fact that he thrived as a #3.

Using BPM as the one approximation of impact is problematic, though. I'd also be very careful comparing across positions and/or roles.

I didnt. I said it was the one *public* one I use, because it most closely aligns - defensively - with player tracking data, which is far more accurate. I'm more than aware of how actual impact can be distorted when it comes to wing defenders. It also highlights why these players are considered "values" because of the low overall impact of being a positive perimeter defender. A center that is good defensively is simply more impactful than a "better" perimeter defender. It works both ways.

OG is an elite defender at the wing who can switch onto 1's and 5's. That doesn't necessarily show up in the boxscore on which BPM is based entirely. It's also worth mentioning that OG still has upside considering his age and trajectory.

Boucher had more opportunities per minute on switches and had better PPP numbers. Eye test confirms that as well. What is OG's upside here? Is he going to become a playmaker? His trajectory in just simply shooting more? Where is this upside? If the whole argument is that he's younger, OK, but where's his theoretical upside?

With Boucher we're also talking about someone who is 28 years old and just had his first meaningful NBA season while still only playing 24 MPG and only starting 14 games (his only games as an NBA starter). I think you're having too much faith in Boucher if you think he's virtually guaranteed to be the solution to our Center problem.

his age literally doesn't matter
24 mintues for a C is on the higher end
starting games has no meaning when he's closing them, which is what really matters
unlike OG, he has tangible upside despite his age with a reason to actually believe in growth - a C that can rebound, handle, and hit 3s is an ideal fit in not only our offense, but today's NBA.

I'd much rather have Boucher and try and find a scrub to turn into a 3&D type (like JTA) than having OG and trying to find a scrub C that rebounds, stretches the floor, and plays borderline elite help defense.

[The-Power]

Because he's not a top 2 option, he's a 3rd option that plays excellent defense. His value is being a great defender while providing supplementary scoring. Him failing at being a top 2 option does not change the fact that he thrived as a #3.

He thrived as the third option for exactly one year, and even during that year his efficiency suffered in the playoffs. Ergo, I'm not absolutely positive that he will thrive in that role again – he might, but it could also have been an outlier season for him. Either way, if he cannot be a secondary option on offense – and as he's not a DPOY-level player on defense either – then his contract is going to be seen as negative value soon, I'd argue. I never said he's not a generally useful player.

Boucher had more opportunities per minute on switches and had better PPP numbers. Eye test confirms that as well. What is OG's upside here? Is he going to become a playmaker? His trajectory in just simply shooting more? Where is this upside? If the whole argument is that he's younger, OK, but where's his theoretical upside?

The theoretical upside is that he becomes more adept at creating for himself and for others, improve his shooting and grow further as a defender. He has already shown improvement in those areas over his career. He doesn't need to transform into a different player to become a better player than he is now, and there is no reason to believe that he's just stagnating from here on out.

Boucher is an interesting offensive big but there is a reason why he's 28 years old and still plays limited minutes and comes off the bench. He's in the middle of his prime (age-wise) and still not a proven player. He has played about as many minutes of NBA basketball in his entire career as Wiggins has played this year in a shortened season. My main point is simply that you cannot view Boucher as a guaranteed impact player who solves our issues and therefore I don't consider him a great price in a deal in which we move our best assets. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see what he can do for our team.

his age literally doesn't matter
24 mintues for a C is on the higher end
starting games has no meaning when he's closing them, which is what really matters
unlike OG, he has tangible upside despite his age with a reason to actually believe in growth - a C that can rebound, handle, and hit 3s is an ideal fit in not only our offense, but today's NBA.

I'd much rather have Boucher and try and find a scrub to turn into a 3&D type (like JTA) than having OG and trying to find a scrub C that rebounds, stretches the floor, and plays borderline elite help defense.

I think we're way too far off on those points to find common ground and that's fine, let's just agree to disagree.

[sonnyhill]

On another thread, the discussion had touched upon Wiggins's current level of play and him still not peaking-and-still with upside.

Can "Winning a Wiggins Trade" also include not trading Wiggins, and instead, further developing his game (mid-range, catch-and-shoot, initiate the offense from the small forward position, and play some minutes as a small-stretch 4)?

As we watch the current playoffs (painful not to see the Warriors competing) and the injuries taking its toll on each team, Wiggins's availability and durability make him even more valuable. Also, I highly doubt we would ever hear the words "load management" during the regular season with regards to Wiggins.

[ILOVEIT]

On another thread, the discussion had touched upon Wiggins's current level of play and him still not peaking-and-still with upside.

Can "Winning a Wiggins Trade" also include not trading Wiggins, and instead, further developing his game (mid-range, catch-and-shoot, initiate the offense from the small forward position, and play some minutes as a small-stretch 4)?

As we watch the current playoffs (painful not to see the Warriors competing) and the injuries taking its toll on each team, Wiggins's availability and durability make him even more valuable. Also, I highly doubt we would ever hear the words "load management" during the regular season with regards to Wiggins.

Agree here....at this point it's a WIN either way. Warriors got a very good/solid ideal SF AND a top level draft pick (this year or next).

Wiggins is insurance on Klay's iffy return. Warriors THIS year showed they could win a bunch of games as is. So let's say they only add one vet....Poole is better next year....

Move Wiggins and Klay goes down again....Warriors are deep chit.

Anyway...agree...It's already a win even if we just keep Wiggins.

[Scoots1994]

The fact that Myers managed to turn nothing (KD leaving) into a great man wing defender and above average offensive player AND a possible high lottery pick makes the Warriors winners in the Wiggins trade already.

Honestly I don't see any trades out there that are at all likely that make sense, particularly considering that Wiggins plays the Warriors weakest position.

[GSWFan1994]

The fact that Myers managed to turn nothing (KD leaving) into a great man wing defender and above average offensive player AND a possible high lottery pick makes the Warriors winners in the Wiggins trade already.

Honestly I don't see any trades out there that are at all likely that make sense, particularly considering that Wiggins plays the Warriors weakest position.

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those "let's put all our chips for a star" trades, it leaves us without pieces in our most needed area: wings.

[FNQ]

The fact that Myers managed to turn nothing (KD leaving) into a great man wing defender and above average offensive player AND a possible high lottery pick makes the Warriors winners in the Wiggins trade already.

Honestly I don't see any trades out there that are at all likely that make sense, particularly considering that Wiggins plays the Warriors weakest position.

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those "let's put all our chips for a star" trades, it leaves us without pieces in our most needed area: wings.

Most of the Wiggins trades are for wings though? Trading him for a C without a lot of roster shuffling would be a disaster. So would trading him for a PG.

Most common ones I’ve seen are Beal, PG13, Kawhi (all 3 seem unrealistic now though). I guess Siakam wouldn’t technically be a wing, if you don’t count 3/4s as wings, but he’d have to be a 3 here - a good reason to not make a deal for Siakam imo, even though I’d consider him a superior player

[DevinVassell]

The fact that Myers managed to turn nothing (KD leaving) into a great man wing defender and above average offensive player AND a possible high lottery pick makes the Warriors winners in the Wiggins trade already.

Honestly I don't see any trades out there that are at all likely that make sense, particularly considering that Wiggins plays the Warriors weakest position.

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those "let's put all our chips for a star" trades, it leaves us without pieces in our most needed area: wings.

Most of the Wiggins trades are for wings though? Trading him for a C without a lot of roster shuffling would be a disaster. So would trading him for a PG.

Most common ones I’ve seen are Beal, PG13, Kawhi (all 3 seem unrealistic now though). I guess Siakam wouldn’t technically be a wing, if you don’t count 3/4s as wings, but he’d have to be a 3 here - a good reason to not make a deal for Siakam imo, even though I’d consider him a superior player

Don't know a lot about Siakam. Any particular reason he can't play the 3? Ballhandling, outside shot? If it's defense, he can't be slower than players like Ingles or slowMo whom seem to be pretty effective 3s.

[FNQ]

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those "let's put all our chips for a star" trades, it leaves us without pieces in our most needed area: wings.

Most of the Wiggins trades are for wings though? Trading him for a C without a lot of roster shuffling would be a disaster. So would trading him for a PG.

Most common ones I’ve seen are Beal, PG13, Kawhi (all 3 seem unrealistic now though). I guess Siakam wouldn’t technically be a wing, if you don’t count 3/4s as wings, but he’d have to be a 3 here - a good reason to not make a deal for Siakam imo, even though I’d consider him a superior player

Don't know a lot about Siakam. Any particular reason he can't play the 3? Ballhandling, outside shot? If it's defense, he can't be slower than players like Ingles or slowMo whom seem to be pretty effective 3s.

He's probably fine there defensively, its that his best work is at the 4. His jumper would be below average for a 3, and you don't often see 3s setting screens, so his defensive versatility goes down there.. you'd be paying for him at his best (PF) but using him where he's not best (SF). That kind of stuff never makes sense to me.. he's a big that can go out to the perimeter at times, not unlike Draymond being a PF that can play some C. If you made Dray a permanent C, diminishing returns. Most likely the case with Siakam as well

[Scoots1994]

The fact that Myers managed to turn nothing (KD leaving) into a great man wing defender and above average offensive player AND a possible high lottery pick makes the Warriors winners in the Wiggins trade already.

Honestly I don't see any trades out there that are at all likely that make sense, particularly considering that Wiggins plays the Warriors weakest position.

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those "let's put all our chips for a star" trades, it leaves us without pieces in our most needed area: wings.

Most of the Wiggins trades are for wings though? Trading him for a C without a lot of roster shuffling would be a disaster. So would trading him for a PG.

Most common ones I’ve seen are Beal, PG13, Kawhi (all 3 seem unrealistic now though). I guess Siakam wouldn’t technically be a wing, if you don’t count 3/4s as wings, but he’d have to be a 3 here - a good reason to not make a deal for Siakam imo, even though I’d consider him a superior player

Beal wouldn't have really worked as well to replace Wiggins as PG13 or Kawhi, but you are right none of them are going to work. If Toronto wants to move on from Siakam I don't know why the Warriors would want him. That said I don't think the Raps are even considering moving him.

[sonnyhill]

How would the board feel about a Wiggins trade to Philly for Simmons, while signing Oubre to an extension and having Oubre play small forward, Green play stretch 4 and Simmons play stretch 5?

A frontcourt of athletic and switching interchangeable pieces would neutralize the Clipper "small ball" perimeter lineup as well as give the Warriors another playmaker in the starting lineup.

Wiseman could be brought along more slowly with Looney providing a veteran presence as a backup center.

[Scoots1994]

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those "let's put all our chips for a star" trades, it leaves us without pieces in our most needed area: wings.

Most of the Wiggins trades are for wings though? Trading him for a C without a lot of roster shuffling would be a disaster. So would trading him for a PG.

Most common ones I’ve seen are Beal, PG13, Kawhi (all 3 seem unrealistic now though). I guess Siakam wouldn’t technically be a wing, if you don’t count 3/4s as wings, but he’d have to be a 3 here - a good reason to not make a deal for Siakam imo, even though I’d consider him a superior player

Don't know a lot about Siakam. Any particular reason he can't play the 3? Ballhandling, outside shot? If it's defense, he can't be slower than players like Ingles or slowMo whom seem to be pretty effective 3s.

Ingles are SlowMo are not worth the $30M+ Siakam is making.

I do think Siakam could play 3 in general, but in the west he's going to be defending a bunch of elite quick 3s and that would be a problem. He'd be better as the small ball 4.

At any rate it's essentially certain to not happen.

[Scoots1994]

How would the board feel about a Wiggins trade to Philly for Simmons, while signing Oubre to an extension and having Oubre play small forward, Green play stretch 4 and Simmons play stretch 5?

A frontcourt of athletic and switching interchangeable pieces would neutralize the Clipper "small ball" perimeter lineup as well as give the Warriors another playmaker in the starting lineup.

Wiseman could be brought along more slowly with Looney providing a veteran presence as a backup center.

Simmons is more expensive than Siakam, and I don't think as good for the Warriors.

To me he has, since pre-draft, seemed like he's a bit broken mentally.

[sonnyhill]

How would the board feel about a Wiggins trade to Philly for Simmons, while signing Oubre to an extension and having Oubre play small forward, Green play stretch 4 and Simmons play stretch 5?

A frontcourt of athletic and switching interchangeable pieces would neutralize the Clipper "small ball" perimeter lineup as well as give the Warriors another playmaker in the starting lineup.

Wiseman could be brought along more slowly with Looney providing a veteran presence as a backup center.

Simmons is more expensive than Siakam, and I don't think as good for the Warriors.

To me he has, since pre-draft, seemed like he's a bit broken mentally.

I agree with your analysis. Yet, Simmons is only 24-years old, potentially has "Magic Johnson-like" upside, and may just only need to be uncoupled away from Embiid and teamed up with perimeter shooters (Curry, Thompson, Poole (Wiseman?).

[mos_def]

How would the board feel about a Wiggins trade to Philly for Simmons, while signing Oubre to an extension and having Oubre play small forward, Green play stretch 4 and Simmons play stretch 5?

A frontcourt of athletic and switching interchangeable pieces would neutralize the Clipper "small ball" perimeter lineup as well as give the Warriors another playmaker in the starting lineup.

Wiseman could be brought along more slowly with Looney providing a veteran presence as a backup center.

Its hard to play Green and Simmons on the same lineup if that trade would go down.

[sonnyhill]

How would the board feel about a Wiggins trade to Philly for Simmons, while signing Oubre to an extension and having Oubre play small forward, Green play stretch 4 and Simmons play stretch 5?

A frontcourt of athletic and switching interchangeable pieces would neutralize the Clipper "small ball" perimeter lineup as well as give the Warriors another playmaker in the starting lineup.

Wiseman could be brought along more slowly with Looney providing a veteran presence as a backup center.

Its hard to play Green and Simmons on the same lineup if that trade would go down.

Simmons at the 5 would be a huge upgrade over Looney-Wiseman.

Yes, Simmons at small forward with Looney at center and Green at power forward would ensure an anemic Warrior offense.

[xdrta+]

How would the board feel about a Wiggins trade to Philly for Simmons, while signing Oubre to an extension and having Oubre play small forward, Green play stretch 4 and Simmons play stretch 5?

A frontcourt of athletic and switching interchangeable pieces would neutralize the Clipper "small ball" perimeter lineup as well as give the Warriors another playmaker in the starting lineup.

Wiseman could be brought along more slowly with Looney providing a veteran presence as a backup center.

A "stretch" 4 or 5 means that they can stretch the floor on offense from a distance, making threes. Neither Green nor Simmons can do that, so I don't see how any of that works.

[Scoots1994]

There is virtually no way the Warriors get Siakam or Simmons or PG12 or Kawhi. Next?

[weekend_warrior]

On another thread, the discussion had touched upon Wiggins's current level of play and him still not peaking-and-still with upside.

Can "Winning a Wiggins Trade" also include not trading Wiggins, and instead, further developing his game (mid-range, catch-and-shoot, initiate the offense from the small forward position, and play some minutes as a small-stretch 4)?

As we watch the current playoffs (painful not to see the Warriors competing) and the injuries taking its toll on each team, Wiggins's availability and durability make him even more valuable. Also, I highly doubt we would ever hear the words "load management" during the regular season with regards to Wiggins.

I have no problem with that at all. I am not sold on players like Siakam, I see marginal improvement at best. That's not worth adding any significant assets from GSW's side. Especially as Wiggins is more clearly a wing and fills the bigger need for GSW.

Wiggins imho needs to make another incremental step forward, similar as the past season, to be neutral value on that contract. Solidify his 3p% (had the best 3p%, eFG% and TS% of his career), improve a bit on his awareness in a team defense concept off-ball (his on-ball defense is elite), get his FT% up a little... It's far from impossible. I hope he works his b*** off this summer.

Either way, he's a very functional player for GSW. And the trajectory is rather going up than down. There is no pressure to do any deals that aren't clearly bringing back better players.