[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns

[Doctor MJ]

5. '05-06 Shawn Marion

I'm both incredibly stunned by this and incredibly proud of you setting aside your hatred for the man to give him his due. But never ever ever would I have expected to see you include him after reading your thoughts on him over the years.

Gosh, well, thank you Chuck, I suppose. Not everything in your post says good stuff about me, but the not-so-good part undoubtedly has a lot of truth in it, and I appreciate both your kind impulse and your recognizing that this is me giving a nod to someone whose career I have issues with.

Just to elaborate a little bit here: The things I hold against Marion just aren't relevant to me here. He was his best self in '05-06, and unfortunately became something less than that out of jealousy once Stoudemire returned. And I hold it against him in a real sense I'd be silly to deny, but I've also lived enough to see how your self changes with time and circumstance. We're not always at our best, and one person to another, I can be quite forgiving, even though when I put on certain analytical hats, I don't forget past behavior.

[Doctor MJ]

Phoenix was such a weird franchise following the departure of Barkley. They had, in 1997, Sam Cassell, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash at some point (Traded Cassell for Kidd), Trade Nash 2 years later, then move on from Kidd 2-3 years after that.

In the end they end up with the best PG of that trio and revolutionize basketball.

You have to wonder if a Kidd/Nash backcourt could have co-existed and what it could have been. Does Kidd develop a 3 point shot sooner?

Oh indeed, and appreciate your moving forward of the conversation Colbinii.

I don't know if Kidd necessarily does develop his 3-point shot much sooner in any realistic scenario due to the priorities of the time, but yes, I think he could have developed it much sooner, though I also think it's assuming too much to say he'd be anything more with it than he was it in his later Dallas run.

And yeah, I think Nash & Kidd could work together quite well. Offensively you'd want to have an offense a bit more read & react than just Nash thinking of everything in order to maximize Kidd's fit, but realistically I think the fact that they both love to run in transition means they'd be able to have all sorts of Globetrotter/Showtime type fun together if you just let them figure it out (which D'Antoni would do, but pretty much no other coach from the time would).

In the half court, Nash is the floor general whenever both are on the court. Kidd would need to be willing (I think he'd be able) to be the one making the bigger change.

Defensively Kidd kind of seems like exactly what you'd hope for from a Nash backcourt partner. Obviously, Kidd takes the hard jobs, and acts as the defensive floor general.

[Texas Chuck]

5. '05-06 Shawn Marion

I'm both incredibly stunned by this and incredibly proud of you setting aside your hatred for the man to give him his due. But never ever ever would I have expected to see you include him after reading your thoughts on him over the years.

Gosh, well, thank you Chuck, I suppose. Not everything in your post says good stuff about me, but the not-so-good part undoubtedly has a lot of truth in it, and I appreciate both your kind impulse and your recognizing that this is me giving a nod to someone whose career I have issues with.

I was intentionally ribbing you a bit since we disagree a bit on who to blame for the break up of the SSOL Suns. But I honestly meant it as a sincere compliment. You dislike him for how you perceive his role a year later, but don't let that prevent you from crediting him for a great season before it all went sour. And that's to your credit. We all come with various biases and narratives and what have you, but not all of us can set those aside and provide objective analysis.

Itt you set a great example for the board of just that and I wanted to recognize it. And tweak you just a wee bit in what I hoped was more joking than mean. Obviously you don't hate the man so I added that as exaggeration hoping you'd see the joke. My apologies if I landed on more mean than anything. I do miss the mark in that fashion from time to time.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm both incredibly stunned by this and incredibly proud of you setting aside your hatred for the man to give him his due. But never ever ever would I have expected to see you include him after reading your thoughts on him over the years.

Gosh, well, thank you Chuck, I suppose. Not everything in your post says good stuff about me, but the not-so-good part undoubtedly has a lot of truth in it, and I appreciate both your kind impulse and your recognizing that this is me giving a nod to someone whose career I have issues with.

I was intentionally ribbing you a bit since we disagree a bit on who to blame for the break up of the SSOL Suns. But I honestly meant it as a sincere compliment. You dislike him for how you perceive his role a year later, but don't let that prevent you from crediting him for a great season before it all went sour. And that's to your credit. We all come with various biases and narratives and what have you, but not all of us can set those aside and provide objective analysis.

Itt you set a great example for the board of just that and I wanted to recognize it. And tweak you just a wee bit in what I hoped was more joking than mean. Obviously you don't hate the man so I added that as exaggeration hoping you'd see the joke. My apologies if I landed on more mean than anything. I do miss the mark in that fashion from time to time.

All good man. I appreciate it, both the recognition and your board intention. Cheers Chuck!

[LA Bird]

1. 2005 Steve Nash
2. 1993 Charles Barkley
Both won MVPs in their first year coming to Phoneix but Nash transformed a mediocre team into a GOAT level offense whereas Barkley went to a team that already had one of the best offenses under KJ. In the 4 years before Barkley, the KJ Suns were already around 7 SRS in the regular season and +7 net in the playoffs. Barkley became the best player when he joined the team but they were already elite before him. Sixers Barkley with his godly TS% and offensive rebounding could have been #1 here but he had declined considerably in both areas by the time he went to Phoenix because he was shooting too many jumpers (like Giannis).

3. 1989 Kevin Johnson
4. 2006 Shawn Marion
5. 1999 Jason Kidd
Covered KJ a little above - strong track record of leading elite offenses without Barkley and FWIW was actually the better player in the 94/95 series against the Hakeem Rockets when the title window was wide open with Jordan retired. Marion, not Amare, was the second most important player behind Nash and was overlooked because most people don't care about defense. 99 Kidd is kind of a fluke in a lockout shortened year but we are only looking at single seasons here so he still makes the list. Honorable mention to Westphal who I haven't looked into much but would probably be just below these three.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm trying to consider if the defensive difference between KJ and Westphal is enough for me to put Westphal over him.

[Odinn21]

FWIW was actually the better player in the 94/95 series against the Hakeem Rockets when the title window was wide open with Jordan retired.

I still wonder how frustrating that game 7 was for the Suns fans. I'm an impartial NBA fan and watching that game made me frustrated as hell. KJ busting his .ss to get it done, only to see Barkley turned the ball over 5 times in the 2nd half. The result was more on the balance between KJ and Chuck than expectable performances of Hakeem and Clyde. Shame.

[Colbinii]

3. 1970 Connie Hawkins
4. 1990 Kevin Johnson
5. 1999 Jason Kidd

So, to start out, Jason Kidd is closer to Charles Barkley than he is to Hawkins and KJ. Jason Kidd had an unbelievable year in 1999 with a poo-poo platter to work with. His defense, playmaking and aggression were a unique combination we have never seen before in a player and it translated directly into winning basketball.

Hawkins almost upset the 1970s Lakers and, before joining the team in 1970, the Suns were atrocious in their first season. His playmaking and defense from the post along with his scoring arsenal puts him above KJ for me.

Made a move here--Kidd's shooting inability is a liability, especially in today's NBA. His impact, while good, wasn't all-time great and not enough to overcome the advantages of Hawkins and Johnson as scorers and their post-season resiliency was a step above Kidd.

I'm surprised Hawkins isn't getting more love--183.1 TS Add and a >.50 FTR is an incredible scoring season. The Suns went up 3-1 against the Lakers (Wilt/West/Baylor) and the games 5-7 in which the Suns lost Hawkins put up impressive statistics while playing just about every minute (48 minutes, 47 minutes and then 44 minutes in the game 7 "blowout").

[Owly]

3. 1970 Connie Hawkins
4. 1990 Kevin Johnson
5. 1999 Jason Kidd

So, to start out, Jason Kidd is closer to Charles Barkley than he is to Hawkins and KJ. Jason Kidd had an unbelievable year in 1999 with a poo-poo platter to work with. His defense, playmaking and aggression were a unique combination we have never seen before in a player and it translated directly into winning basketball.

Hawkins almost upset the 1970s Lakers and, before joining the team in 1970, the Suns were atrocious in their first season. His playmaking and defense from the post along with his scoring arsenal puts him above KJ for me.

Made a move here--Kidd's shooting inability is a liability, especially in today's NBA. His impact, while good, wasn't all-time great and not enough to overcome the advantages of Hawkins and Johnson as scorers and their post-season resiliency was a step above Kidd.

I'm surprised Hawkins isn't getting more love--183.1 TS Add and a >.50 FTR is an incredible scoring season. The Suns went up 3-1 against the Lakers (Wilt/West/Baylor) and the games 5-7 in which the Suns lost Hawkins put up impressive statistics while playing just about every minute (48 minutes, 47 minutes and then 44 minutes in the game 7 "blowout").

It's a real tough field is the main problem (Westphal is mostly fringe-y, Nance and Davis only getting tangential mentions on a long list).

Secondary issues might be absence of a great team success or narrative hook ('93 finals, SSoL), a somewhat less celebrated era, defense (team and individual reputation) and maybe that overall the box composites aren't outstanding versus some competitors.

Not saying all of those are fair but my gut is he wouldn't make my 5.

[VanWest82]

I'm surprised at the number of posters picking 07 Nash over 05. His stats were better in 07 but 05 Steve was a superstar as evidenced by his playoff run. He wasn't the same athlete in 07.

Marion is tough because he was so impactful but also Nash made him so impactful. Look at Marion's #s in 06, particularly his TSAdd when he was Nash's main PnR partner vs. other years.

We probably need a whole new thread on 93 Barkley vs. 05 Nash. I have too many thoughts on this to waste them here.

Kidd is tough. He was obviously great (how do we account for his shortened greatness in 99??).

Dan Majerle was super underrated in 93.

Nash/Barkley
KJ
...
how do we possibly evaluate Booker at this stage?
Kidd? Westphal? Stoudamire?
Marion? Majerle? Nance?

This thread is giving me a migraine!!!

[70sFan]

1. 2006/07 Steve Nash - I can't decide between him and Barkley, but decided to go with Nash who had a bit better postseason performance. Neither player was good on defensive end, but Steve isn't as concerning.

2. 1992/93 Charles Barkley - clear choice, I prefer Sixers version of Barkley but he was still MVP-level player during his Suns career.

3. 1969/70 Connie Hawkins - I'm starting to be more and more impressed by this season. He played every role Suns needed from him - he was the main ball-handler, first scoring option and he also guarded Wilt at times in playoffs. I wish we had more footage of prime Hawkins, he was special.

4. 1978/79 Paul Westphal - excellent all-nba guard, good shooter and playmaker with low tov rate. As I said before, he played very well in playoffs against DJ and the Seattle defense. I'm just very impressed when I watch him, very skilled and smart basketball player. I decided to pick him over KJ because of Johnson's defensive issues.

5. 1989/90 Kevin Johnson - very dynamic offensive player who pressured defense all the time, but his lack of size and questionable awareness on defense are big concerns for me. Still, I decided to give him benefit of doubt for his excellent postseason run, which is why I have him over Kidd in the end.

HM: Kidd, Marion, Silas, Amar'e

[Jaivl]

1) 2007 Steve Nash
You can choose whatever season from that run, chose 07 because his shot profile is especially ridiculous. A clearly, clearly better offensive player than Suns Barkley by my estimation.

2) 1993 Charles Barkley
It's very frustrating for me to see Suns Barkley this high, and honestly other from this season he kind of looks Carmelo-esque, but he brought it in 1993: as you know, losing Hornacek and half of KJ did not bulge the offense a single bit (and in fact they improved 1.5 points). Led them to the Finals, won an unfair MVP, yadda yadda.

3) 1990 Kevin Johnson
He lands exactly where Russell Westbrook would land. Or a smaller, better shooting Westbrook. As long as the league isn't suddenly full of John Stocktons, he can lead +3 defenses out of whatever.

4) 1970 Connie Hawkins
The Suns needed that scoring like we need to see more 70s Suns games. Taking 3 games out of a fully healthy Lakers team is an enormous feather on his hat.

5) 1979 Paul Westphal
He looks like a monster on film, no weaknesses, but it's very difficult to separate the impact of the trio Davis-Adams-Westphal: an eminently defensive team, but only a good-ish offense despite having two offensive stars.

I'd have to look at some more Phoenix games, because we could be wildly underrating Alvan Adams. His tenure as the starting C for Phoenix was full of terrific defenses, they look as good as the 90s Suns on offense.

Shout out to Kidd, also shout out to 2008 Stat (ughhh) and his crazy scoring performances.

[70sFan]

It's very frustrating for me to see Suns Barkley this high, and honestly other from this season he kind of looks Carmelo-esque

Barkley anchored Suns to extremely good offenses:

1993: +5.3 in RS, +5.2 in playoffs
1994: +5.4 in RS, +8.2 in playoffs
1995: +6.2 in RS, +12.3 in playoffs

Why do you think he was Carmelo-esque? Sure, his defense was bad but he was still highly efficient and he was much better playmaker than Melo.

[Odinn21]

A little over 3 and a half hours left on the clock for this one.

---

1. 1993 Charles Barkley
2. 2007 Steve Nash
I've always had peak Barkley over peak Nash. Barkley's peak was in Philly but 1993 version was not far enough to deny him from the top spot.
2007 Nash was leading +7.5 rORtg offense both in regular season and also in postseason. One interesting note about 2007, it was the season the Suns also had +7.2 rORtg against top 5 defensive teams in the season. For comparison, they were +2.1 in 2005, -2.6 in 2006 and -5.2 in 2010 against top 5 defensive teams in the regular seasons.
(By the way, swings in 2005 and 2006 and 2007 can be taken as Amare's impact which is not that obvious in RAPM type of +/- data.)

3. 1990 Kevin Johnson
4. 1999 Jason Kidd
One of the most complete seasons in the franchise history. Great regular season results, great postseason results. KJ had production and the impact. The aspect puts him over the others left on the board is the competition he faced. All greatness is measured by related environment and competition. Going by aspects alone might skew extents. KJ was not a good defensive player to have, then again his high energy offense probably meant more than the gap on defense if we compare him to Kidd. (Kidd was yet to become the goat level defensive G we know.)

To Kidd's case, he led the Suns offense to a great success without having that kind of help.

5. 1970 Connie Hawkins
The Suns went from 16W, -7.3 NRtg team in their inaugural season to 39W, -1.5 NRtg team, taking the Lakers to a game 7. The reason why he's not over Kidd and KJ is that I'm not attributing all that swing to Hawkins because I believe that Goodrich made a significant jump from the season before impact wise and also Paul Silas was a great addition.

HMs; 1979 Paul Westphal, 2006 Shawn Marion, 2007 Amar'e Stoudemire

[Colbinii]

Nice to see Connie Hawkins getting some more love. Shame his career was ruined by an injury.

[Jaivl]

It's very frustrating for me to see Suns Barkley this high, and honestly other from this season he kind of looks Carmelo-esque

Barkley anchored Suns to extremely good offenses:

1993: +5.3 in RS, +5.2 in playoffs
1994: +5.4 in RS, +8.2 in playoffs
1995: +6.2 in RS, +12.3 in playoffs

Why do you think he was Carmelo-esque? Sure, his defense was bad but he was still highly efficient and he was much better playmaker than Melo.

Fat ass who didn't care about defense.

[70sFan]

It's very frustrating for me to see Suns Barkley this high, and honestly other from this season he kind of looks Carmelo-esque

Barkley anchored Suns to extremely good offenses:

1993: +5.3 in RS, +5.2 in playoffs
1994: +5.4 in RS, +8.2 in playoffs
1995: +6.2 in RS, +12.3 in playoffs

Why do you think he was Carmelo-esque? Sure, his defense was bad but he was still highly efficient and he was much better playmaker than Melo.

Fat ass who didn't care about defense.

I mean, neither did Nash, at least not to the point when he became average...

[TroubleS0me]

Honorable Mention: Goran Dragic

[Odinn21]

The Suns results;

Code: Select all

1. 7-4-0-0-0 / 98 points / 0.891 share / '07 Steve Nash
2. 4-7-0-0-0 / 89 points / 0.809 share / '93 Charles Barkley
3. 0-0-6-4-1 / 43 points / 0.391 share / '90 Kevin Johnson
4. 0-0-2-2-1 / 17 points / 0.155 share / '70 Connie Hawkins
5. 0-0-1-2-3 / 14 points / 0.127 share / '99 Jason Kidd

6. 0-0-1-1-3 / 11 points / 0.100 share / '79 Paul Westphal
7. 0-0-1-1-0 /  8 points / 0.073 share / '05 Amar'e Stoudemire
8. 0-0-0-1-3 /  6 points / 0.055 share / '06 Shawn Marion

Results on Google Sheet

[Doctor MJ]

Barkley anchored Suns to extremely good offenses:

1993: +5.3 in RS, +5.2 in playoffs
1994: +5.4 in RS, +8.2 in playoffs
1995: +6.2 in RS, +12.3 in playoffs

Why do you think he was Carmelo-esque? Sure, his defense was bad but he was still highly efficient and he was much better playmaker than Melo.

Fat ass who didn't care about defense.

I mean, neither did Nash, at least not to the point when he became average...

Ooh, I think a clarification is in order.

Nash's issue was physical limitation. His decision making on defense - playing his role, not making mistakes - was generally spot on, but because of his limitations the Suns did need to support/hide him.

Barkley just took the defensive possession off a lot. In fact I know our mutual friend Ben expressed exasperation at just how egregious Chuck's defensive laziness was.

Not saying folks are crazy for putting Barkley first, but Nash's defensive issues were not Barkley's defensive issues.