Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story

[Stratmaster]

My bad. Not sure where I saw the 18.

But I still disagree. Kawhi is a slightly better scorer. And Pippen absolutely took over games wth his defense, fast break skills and passing. If you don't think he could, then again I sincerely suggest you go back and watch some games from his prime. I don't mean that like "did you even watch the games?" snark. I think you watch games a little more critically now than you likely did then, but if you tell me I am wrong I certainly will take your word for it. There was so much to Pippen's game that didn't show up in scoring stats, including his offensive game.

I've watched a lot of the Bulls championship era finals games recently. I found out Amazon Prime just has a bunch of them available for free watch, so I would watch them when on the treadmill. That said, it's a pretty limited sampling of games. There's not really an easy way for me to go back and watch old Pippen games, so my opinion on him will probably be where it is (which is still awfully high, ignoring our debate of this great player vs that one, I still think Pippen is a 1st ballot HOF type player, top 50 guy).

Random side note, watching old games really sucks. I wish they had them all in HD.

Yeah, they are difficult to watch

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[Stratmaster]

First, Pippen is certainly and superstar on my list. I don’t have a set of rigid criteria someone has to pass. That ignores the context of a player’s career.

Second, Kulaz is making the pertinent point here. Pip never put his team on his back and won a championship. True. But that’s kind of hard to do when you spend the entire prime of your career playing with the GOAT. Hard to out a team on your back when you are already on someone else’s back.

The one full season and postseason we got to see Pip be “the franchise” he was incredible and the team had an amazing season given the circumstances. Pip got that team to over-perform. 55 wins, one terrible call away from reaching the ECF, averaging 22/9/6/3. That’s superstar basketball and just a glimpse of what he could have done.

I have no doubt that had Pippen had entire teams built around him he would have been the type of the player who could have been the #1 on an elite contender.

MJ prevented this. Yet ironically, Pippen may never have turned into what he was without MJ relentlessly driving him. Kind of a catch-22.

I have come to the conclusion that unless you watched those games the same way you absorb and dissect the NBA games today, you can't really appreciate just how good and how much of an impact Pippen had.

That and there are some fans who only see scoring and understand the game in the context of the 3 point shooting no defense league we watch now.

Another interesting theoretical stat. If Pippen had taken the same number of 3 point shots as Curry, and made them at the same roughly 33% rate Pippen shot them at (he was actually about a 36% 3 point shooter in his prime. His first 4 seasons he shot under 30%), it would have added roughly 6 points per game to his average.

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[TheStig]

Bill Russell? I'm confident if you put 6 other hall of famers around me, we could be a contending team too. Not trying to discount Russell but that team had more hall of famers than any other team and the league wasn't deep. You could make that anology with anyone.

KG was easily better than Pip. He had years he led the league in Per, WS, BPM and Vorp.

I generally agree with you quite a bit, but I didn't watch basketball in the Russell era, so I hesitate to talk about it much, all the people in that era thought Bill was the difference maker though, so it's also hard to really discount the opinion of everyone who was there.

Either way, Russell is way down on my greatest of all time list compared to where he shows up on Simmons list.

I didn't watch either but the Celtics had very stacked teams back then. He was a great player and was very good but the level of play and conditioning was not the same.

[TheStig]

I agree.. Kawhi is not a better basketball player than Pippen was.

Curry is only a better shooter. Not a better overall player.

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How is Kawhi not a better player? He has a very similar build, defense and is a much better and more efficent scorer. ANd he has actually carried a team to a ring. I wouldn't hesitate to take Kawhi over Pip.

Not sure how old you are but Kawhi can't touch Pips defense, or rebounding. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is Pippen was likely the greatest fast break player ever. Kawhi also can't play point like Pipoen did.

Kawhi has averaged 19 ppg on 18 fga. In his best season he averaged 27.x on 20 shots per game. Pip averaged 17.7 on 14 shots per game for the Bulls and his best season was 22 ppg on 18 shots. Pip played in a much lower scoring era next to the greatest scorer of all time. I am not sure where you get the idea Kawhi was a way better scorer.

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For their careers
Kawhi
49.3% fg
38.4% 3pt
85.8% ft
1.6 turnover
19.2ppg
60% ts
23.4 per
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
6 all defense (pretty sure #7 this year)
4 all nba (pretty sure #5 this year)

Pip
47.3% fg
32.6% 3pt
70.4ft
2.8 turnover
16.1ppg
53.6%ts
18.6per
10 all defense
7 all nba

They also average the same rebounds despite scottie playing more minutes per game.

Kawhi is easily the more dominant and efficent player offensively. Kawhi has played half the years and is well outpacing pip in awards. He has 2 dpoy and finals mvps. Pip has none. He is a better defender in his era than Pip was. You can't get into people like you used too.

[Stratmaster]

How is Kawhi not a better player? He has a very similar build, defense and is a much better and more efficent scorer. ANd he has actually carried a team to a ring. I wouldn't hesitate to take Kawhi over Pip.

Not sure how old you are but Kawhi can't touch Pips defense, or rebounding. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is Pippen was likely the greatest fast break player ever. Kawhi also can't play point like Pipoen did.

Kawhi has averaged 19 ppg on 18 fga. In his best season he averaged 27.x on 20 shots per game. Pip averaged 17.7 on 14 shots per game for the Bulls and his best season was 22 ppg on 18 shots. Pip played in a much lower scoring era next to the greatest scorer of all time. I am not sure where you get the idea Kawhi was a way better scorer.

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For their careers
Kawhi
49.3% fg
38.4% 3pt
85.8% ft
1.6 turnover
19.2ppg
60% ts
23.4 per
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
6 all defense (pretty sure #7 this year)
4 all nba (pretty sure #5 this year)

Pip
47.3% fg
32.6% 3pt
70.4ft
2.8 turnover
16.1ppg
53.6%ts
18.6per
10 all defense
7 all nba

They also average the same rebounds despite scottie playing more minutes per game.

Kawhi is easily the more dominant and efficent player offensively. Kawhi has played half the years and is well outpacing pip in awards. He has 2 dpoy and finals mvps. Pip has none. He is a better defender in his era than Pip was. You can't get into people like you used too.

You realize that TS% and PER can never be used to compare the 2 eras, right? If you put any stock in those numbers we need to have a discussion of how those numbers are affected by the difference in rules and game style.

Comparing the 3 point percentage...same thing. When Pip entered the league the 3 pioint shot was a side note.

As soon as the league realized it could be truly valuable Pippen went from a 28% 3 point shooter to a 36-37%.

Kawhi is a slightly better shooter than Pip in a game where lazy open jumpers are routine. That isn't the way the game was played back then. I guarantee you Pippen would have had more effect on Kawhi's offense than vice versa.

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[TheStig]

Not sure how old you are but Kawhi can't touch Pips defense, or rebounding. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is Pippen was likely the greatest fast break player ever. Kawhi also can't play point like Pipoen did.

Kawhi has averaged 19 ppg on 18 fga. In his best season he averaged 27.x on 20 shots per game. Pip averaged 17.7 on 14 shots per game for the Bulls and his best season was 22 ppg on 18 shots. Pip played in a much lower scoring era next to the greatest scorer of all time. I am not sure where you get the idea Kawhi was a way better scorer.

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For their careers
Kawhi
49.3% fg
38.4% 3pt
85.8% ft
1.6 turnover
19.2ppg
60% ts
23.4 per
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
6 all defense (pretty sure #7 this year)
4 all nba (pretty sure #5 this year)

Pip
47.3% fg
32.6% 3pt
70.4ft
2.8 turnover
16.1ppg
53.6%ts
18.6per
10 all defense
7 all nba

They also average the same rebounds despite scottie playing more minutes per game.

Kawhi is easily the more dominant and efficent player offensively. Kawhi has played half the years and is well outpacing pip in awards. He has 2 dpoy and finals mvps. Pip has none. He is a better defender in his era than Pip was. You can't get into people like you used too.

You realize that TS% and PER can never be used to compare the 2 eras, right? If you put any stock in those numbers we need to have a discussion of how those numbers are affected by the difference in rules and game style.

Comparing the 3 point percentage...same thing. When Pip entered the league the 3 pioint shot was a side note.

As soon as the league realized it could be truly valuable Pippen went from a 28% 3 point shooter to a 36-37%.

Kawhi is a slightly better shooter than Pip in a game where lazy open jumpers are routine. That isn't the way the game was played back then. I guarantee you Pippen would have had more effect on Kawhi's offense than vice versa.

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You absolutely can compare per and efficency. MJ compares very favorably in both and he and Pip played together.

Or they moved in the 3pt line...... his numbers dropped off after that.

Kawhi takes more contested jumpers than Pip. I hardly ever recall Pip taking contested jumpers like Kawhi. He is a much better shooter than Pip.

Kawhi has also won 2 DPOY and 2 finals MVP's. Pippen has won none despite playing 2x the seasons and more finals. He's also pacing to more awards. His scoring, efficiency and pure production is better than Pip's ever was.

What I will give you is that Pip is better at running and offense and distributing. But I think Kawhi's defense is a little better and his scoring, efficency and output is better overall. Kawhi is easily the better player.

[Stratmaster]

For their careers
Kawhi
49.3% fg
38.4% 3pt
85.8% ft
1.6 turnover
19.2ppg
60% ts
23.4 per
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
6 all defense (pretty sure #7 this year)
4 all nba (pretty sure #5 this year)

Pip
47.3% fg
32.6% 3pt
70.4ft
2.8 turnover
16.1ppg
53.6%ts
18.6per
10 all defense
7 all nba

They also average the same rebounds despite scottie playing more minutes per game.

Kawhi is easily the more dominant and efficent player offensively. Kawhi has played half the years and is well outpacing pip in awards. He has 2 dpoy and finals mvps. Pip has none. He is a better defender in his era than Pip was. You can't get into people like you used too.

You realize that TS% and PER can never be used to compare the 2 eras, right? If you put any stock in those numbers we need to have a discussion of how those numbers are affected by the difference in rules and game style.

Comparing the 3 point percentage...same thing. When Pip entered the league the 3 pioint shot was a side note.

As soon as the league realized it could be truly valuable Pippen went from a 28% 3 point shooter to a 36-37%.

Kawhi is a slightly better shooter than Pip in a game where lazy open jumpers are routine. That isn't the way the game was played back then. I guarantee you Pippen would have had more effect on Kawhi's offense than vice versa.

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You absolutely can compare per and efficency. MJ compares very favorably in both and he and Pip played together.

Or they moved in the 3pt line...... his numbers dropped off after that.

Kawhi takes more contested jumpers than Pip. I hardly ever recall Pip taking contested jumpers like Kawhi. He is a much better shooter than Pip.

Kawhi has also won 2 DPOY and 2 finals MVP's. Pippen has won none despite playing 2x the seasons and more finals. He's also pacing to more awards. His scoring, efficiency and pure production is better than Pip's ever was.

What I will give you is that Pip is better at running and offense and distributing. But I think Kawhi's defense is a little better and his scoring, efficency and output is better overall. Kawhi is easily the better player.

Again. I agree Pippen wasn't MJ. Neither is Kawhi.

Kawhi is almost a full 4% better TS% than MJ. If that doesn't drive home that you can't use TS% between the 2 eras to compare offense I can't think of anything I can say that will.

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[CobyWhite0]

You realize that TS% and PER can never be used to compare the 2 eras, right? If you put any stock in those numbers we need to have a discussion of how those numbers are affected by the difference in rules and game style.

Comparing the 3 point percentage...same thing. When Pip entered the league the 3 pioint shot was a side note.

As soon as the league realized it could be truly valuable Pippen went from a 28% 3 point shooter to a 36-37%.

Kawhi is a slightly better shooter than Pip in a game where lazy open jumpers are routine. That isn't the way the game was played back then. I guarantee you Pippen would have had more effect on Kawhi's offense than vice versa.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

You absolutely can compare per and efficency. MJ compares very favorably in both and he and Pip played together.

Or they moved in the 3pt line...... his numbers dropped off after that.

Kawhi takes more contested jumpers than Pip. I hardly ever recall Pip taking contested jumpers like Kawhi. He is a much better shooter than Pip.

Kawhi has also won 2 DPOY and 2 finals MVP's. Pippen has won none despite playing 2x the seasons and more finals. He's also pacing to more awards. His scoring, efficiency and pure production is better than Pip's ever was.

What I will give you is that Pip is better at running and offense and distributing. But I think Kawhi's defense is a little better and his scoring, efficency and output is better overall. Kawhi is easily the better player.

Again. I agree Pippen wasn't MJ. Neither is Kawhi.

Kawhi is almost a full 4% better TS% than MJ. If that doesn't drive home that you can't use TS% between the 2 eras to compare offense I can't think of anything I can say that will.

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Or else Kawhi is a much better and more efficient offensive player than the greatest to ever play the game. Sure, I buy that.

[othawhitemeat]

How is Kawhi not a better player? He has a very similar build, defense and is a much better and more efficent scorer. ANd he has actually carried a team to a ring. I wouldn't hesitate to take Kawhi over Pip.

Not sure how old you are but Kawhi can't touch Pips defense, or rebounding. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is Pippen was likely the greatest fast break player ever. Kawhi also can't play point like Pipoen did.

Kawhi has averaged 19 ppg on 18 fga. In his best season he averaged 27.x on 20 shots per game. Pip averaged 17.7 on 14 shots per game for the Bulls and his best season was 22 ppg on 18 shots. Pip played in a much lower scoring era next to the greatest scorer of all time. I am not sure where you get the idea Kawhi was a way better scorer.

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For their careers
Kawhi
49.3% fg
38.4% 3pt
85.8% ft
1.6 turnover
19.2ppg
60% ts
23.4 per
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
6 all defense (pretty sure #7 this year)
4 all nba (pretty sure #5 this year)

Pip
47.3% fg
32.6% 3pt
70.4ft
2.8 turnover
16.1ppg
53.6%ts
18.6per
10 all defense
7 all nba

They also average the same rebounds despite scottie playing more minutes per game.

Kawhi is easily the more dominant and efficent player offensively. Kawhi has played half the years and is well outpacing pip in awards. He has 2 dpoy and finals mvps. Pip has none. He is a better defender in his era than Pip was. You can't get into people like you used too.

You had me mostly until defensive portion. Kawhi is very good defensively, but Pippen was in my biased opinion better. Pippen was like Iguodola on steroids defensively. He could do everything and would set tone from start. He would guard guards like Magic from full-court just to slow him down. He could guard 1-4, was elite at drawing charges. Kawhi is still elite, but not as good as he once was. Pippen is like the all intangible player at an elite level. I will give Kawhi is a more elite scorer and more clutch, but Pippen was just special as a defender, ball-handler, and passer.

I mean you left out stats like Pippen's assist total, his steal average, and his blocks in addition to doing charges. Long term Kawhi is probably a better player if he keeps playing at a pace he is playing at. However, he can't quit on his team and take as many games off. Kawhi is a great player and at peak is more dangerous than Pippen, but to me Pippen was such an elite intangibles player that you have to watch the games and not just look at stats. It would be like watching a much higher Andre Iguodola. A taller, longer, and faster Iguodola with even better d and more scoring is really freaking good.

[TheStig]

Not sure how old you are but Kawhi can't touch Pips defense, or rebounding. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is Pippen was likely the greatest fast break player ever. Kawhi also can't play point like Pipoen did.

Kawhi has averaged 19 ppg on 18 fga. In his best season he averaged 27.x on 20 shots per game. Pip averaged 17.7 on 14 shots per game for the Bulls and his best season was 22 ppg on 18 shots. Pip played in a much lower scoring era next to the greatest scorer of all time. I am not sure where you get the idea Kawhi was a way better scorer.

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For their careers
Kawhi
49.3% fg
38.4% 3pt
85.8% ft
1.6 turnover
19.2ppg
60% ts
23.4 per
2 DPOY
2 Finals MVP
6 all defense (pretty sure #7 this year)
4 all nba (pretty sure #5 this year)

Pip
47.3% fg
32.6% 3pt
70.4ft
2.8 turnover
16.1ppg
53.6%ts
18.6per
10 all defense
7 all nba

They also average the same rebounds despite scottie playing more minutes per game.

Kawhi is easily the more dominant and efficent player offensively. Kawhi has played half the years and is well outpacing pip in awards. He has 2 dpoy and finals mvps. Pip has none. He is a better defender in his era than Pip was. You can't get into people like you used too.

You had me mostly until defensive portion. Kawhi is very good defensively, but Pippen was in my biased opinion better. Pippen was like Iguodola on steroids defensively. He could do everything and would set tone from start. He would guard guards like Magic from full-court just to slow him down. He could guard 1-4, was elite at drawing charges. Kawhi is still elite, but not as good as he once was. Pippen is like the all intangible player at an elite level. I will give Kawhi is a more elite scorer and more clutch, but Pippen was just special as a defender, ball-handler, and passer.

I mean you left out stats like Pippen's assist total, his steal average, and his blocks in addition to doing charges. Long term Kawhi is probably a better player if he keeps playing at a pace he is playing at. However, he can't quit on his team and take as many games off. Kawhi is a great player and at peak is more dangerous than Pippen, but to me Pippen was such an elite intangibles player that you have to watch the games and not just look at stats. It would be like watching a much higher Andre Iguodola. A taller, longer, and faster Iguodola with even better d and more scoring is really freaking good.

Defense is very subjective and relative to their peers. I think he gets the nod because he's better amongst his peers, hence the 2 DPOY. Head to head in real life I think they'd be relatively similar.

I did mention in one of these that Pippen was a better at running the offense and distributing. That is his big advantage vs Kawhi.

[CobyWhite0]

First, Pippen is certainly and superstar on my list. I don’t have a set of rigid criteria someone has to pass. That ignores the context of a player’s career.

Second, Kulaz is making the pertinent point here. Pip never put his team on his back and won a championship. True. But that’s kind of hard to do when you spend the entire prime of your career playing with the GOAT. Hard to out a team on your back when you are already on someone else’s back.

The one full season and postseason we got to see Pip be “the franchise” he was incredible and the team had an amazing season given the circumstances. Pip got that team to over-perform. 55 wins, one terrible call away from reaching the ECF, averaging 22/9/6/3. That’s superstar basketball and just a glimpse of what he could have done.

I have no doubt that had Pippen had entire teams built around him he would have been the type of the player who could have been the #1 on an elite contender.

MJ prevented this. Yet ironically, Pippen may never have turned into what he was without MJ relentlessly driving him. Kind of a catch-22.

I have come to the conclusion that unless you watched those games the same way you absorb and dissect the NBA games today, you can't really appreciate just how good and how much of an impact Pippen had.

That and there are some fans who only see scoring and understand the game in the context of the 3 point shooting no defense league we watch now.

Another interesting theoretical stat. If Pippen had taken the same number of 3 point shots as Curry, and made them at the same roughly 33% rate Pippen shot them at (he was actually about a 36% 3 point shooter in his prime. His first 4 seasons he shot under 30%), it would have added roughly 6 points per game to his average.

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In his full season without MJ, Scottie averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 2.9 steals.

Here's the complete list of players in NBA history who can match that season:






The end.

[Stratmaster]

First, Pippen is certainly and superstar on my list. I don’t have a set of rigid criteria someone has to pass. That ignores the context of a player’s career.

Second, Kulaz is making the pertinent point here. Pip never put his team on his back and won a championship. True. But that’s kind of hard to do when you spend the entire prime of your career playing with the GOAT. Hard to out a team on your back when you are already on someone else’s back.

The one full season and postseason we got to see Pip be “the franchise” he was incredible and the team had an amazing season given the circumstances. Pip got that team to over-perform. 55 wins, one terrible call away from reaching the ECF, averaging 22/9/6/3. That’s superstar basketball and just a glimpse of what he could have done.

I have no doubt that had Pippen had entire teams built around him he would have been the type of the player who could have been the #1 on an elite contender.

MJ prevented this. Yet ironically, Pippen may never have turned into what he was without MJ relentlessly driving him. Kind of a catch-22.

I have come to the conclusion that unless you watched those games the same way you absorb and dissect the NBA games today, you can't really appreciate just how good and how much of an impact Pippen had.

That and there are some fans who only see scoring and understand the game in the context of the 3 point shooting no defense league we watch now.

Another interesting theoretical stat. If Pippen had taken the same number of 3 point shots as Curry, and made them at the same roughly 33% rate Pippen shot them at (he was actually about a 36% 3 point shooter in his prime. His first 4 seasons he shot under 30%), it would have added roughly 6 points per game to his average.

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In his full season without MJ, Scottie averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 2.9 steals.

Here's the complete list of players in NBA history who can match that season:






The end.

IKR?

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[DuckIII]

I do think Kawhi will end up being “ranked” above Pippen. And I would not argue the point. Offensively he is significantly better, and he’s incredible defensively as well.

But I want to make this clear: Scottie Pippen is the greatest perimeter defender of all time. All time. At least since the 80s anyway when I started watching the NBA.

[kulaz3000]

First, Pippen is certainly and superstar on my list. I don’t have a set of rigid criteria someone has to pass. That ignores the context of a player’s career.

Second, Kulaz is making the pertinent point here. Pip never put his team on his back and won a championship. True. But that’s kind of hard to do when you spend the entire prime of your career playing with the GOAT. Hard to out a team on your back when you are already on someone else’s back.

The one full season and postseason we got to see Pip be “the franchise” he was incredible and the team had an amazing season given the circumstances. Pip got that team to over-perform. 55 wins, one terrible call away from reaching the ECF, averaging 22/9/6/3. That’s superstar basketball and just a glimpse of what he could have done.

I have no doubt that had Pippen had entire teams built around him he would have been the type of the player who could have been the #1 on an elite contender.

MJ prevented this. Yet ironically, Pippen may never have turned into what he was without MJ relentlessly driving him. Kind of a catch-22.

I agree with this.

Also think Pip is a byproduct of what he learned from Jordan. The Pip we know wouldn't have been that player without being forced into greatness from the demands of Jordan.

Not to side track this discussion, but I never really liked the discussion when it pertains to how Pippen wouldn't have been Pippen if it wasn't for Jordan, whilst possible, I think Pippen also needs to be given credit for Jordan being Jordan also. I can't remember where I read it, it could have been the Jordan rules, but the story goes that Pippen was really good with his left hand, especially around the basket, and Jordan learned how to better use his left hand from Pippen. Not to mention, Jordan also had the benefit of playing against one of the best wing defenders of all time in Pippen on a regular basis in practice.

Point being, without being there to witness those two on a daily basis, I think they both benefitted from having each other to push and elevate their games.

[kulaz3000]

I do think Kawhi will end up being “ranked” above Pippen. And I would not argue the point. Offensively he is significantly better, and he’s incredible defensively as well.

But I want to make this clear: Scottie Pippen is the greatest perimeter defender of all time. All time. At least since the 80s anyway when I started watching the NBA.

I agree with this.

Kawhi is a better offensively player, and it's not even close regardless of eras. Kawhi can carry a team offensively, from all areas of the floor, and though Scottie was a capable scorer, it just wasn't his game to carry the load and quite honestly, he didn't have the consistency in that area to do so.

But defensively is where Pippen was better, consistently throughout his career. I don't really care about who won more individual defensive player of the year awards, because Pippen played in an era where defense was actually allowed to play, and as such defensive players had more of a prominent role on teams, whereas now, not so much.

That said, Kwahi when he didn't carry as much of an offensive load was an ELITE defender, but he hasn't been that consistent defender for a few years now, and is getting a little of the LeBron and Kobe respect, where people are claiming he is better defensively than he really is, due to his reputation from his previous seasons. It takes a special type of player to be great on both ends of the floor, on a year to year basis, that's what made Jordan, LeBron and even Kobe amazing once in a generation type of players.

[TheStig]

You absolutely can compare per and efficency. MJ compares very favorably in both and he and Pip played together.

Or they moved in the 3pt line...... his numbers dropped off after that.

Kawhi takes more contested jumpers than Pip. I hardly ever recall Pip taking contested jumpers like Kawhi. He is a much better shooter than Pip.

Kawhi has also won 2 DPOY and 2 finals MVP's. Pippen has won none despite playing 2x the seasons and more finals. He's also pacing to more awards. His scoring, efficiency and pure production is better than Pip's ever was.

What I will give you is that Pip is better at running and offense and distributing. But I think Kawhi's defense is a little better and his scoring, efficency and output is better overall. Kawhi is easily the better player.

Again. I agree Pippen wasn't MJ. Neither is Kawhi.

Kawhi is almost a full 4% better TS% than MJ. If that doesn't drive home that you can't use TS% between the 2 eras to compare offense I can't think of anything I can say that will.

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Or else Kawhi is a much better and more efficient offensive player than the greatest to ever play the game. Sure, I buy that.

Ts% is one of many metrics that Kawhi was better at. Reggie Miller had a higher ts% than all of them. You don't see me trying to say he was the best scorer. Scoring load has a big thing to do with efficiency. MJ carried the load offensively and Pip was able to be the 2nd option to the greatest #1 of all time. He should be more efficient than a Kawhi. Kawhi who is clearly the #1 for the last few years.

[othawhitemeat]

I do think Kawhi will end up being “ranked” above Pippen. And I would not argue the point. Offensively he is significantly better, and he’s incredible defensively as well.

But I want to make this clear: Scottie Pippen is the greatest perimeter defender of all time. All time. At least since the 80s anyway when I started watching the NBA.

Pretty much said what I was trying to say better. I've never seen a defender like Pippen. Iggy is the closest, but not as tall/long and not as good. Kawhi is a great defender too, but Pippen was just special. The way he guarded Magic in Finals, the way he took on players like Malone at times, the relentlessness on full-court, the ability to draw charges, the steals, etc... The only reason he did not win DPOY was because most years it was given to someone like a big such as Rodman or Hakeem.

Watch on YouTube

Here is a better video going into the intracacies.

Watch on YouTube

[Stratmaster]

Again. I agree Pippen wasn't MJ. Neither is Kawhi.

Kawhi is almost a full 4% better TS% than MJ. If that doesn't drive home that you can't use TS% between the 2 eras to compare offense I can't think of anything I can say that will.

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Or else Kawhi is a much better and more efficient offensive player than the greatest to ever play the game. Sure, I buy that.

Ts% is one of many metrics that Kawhi was better at. Reggie Miller had a higher ts% than all of them. You don't see me trying to say he was the best scorer. Scoring load has a big thing to do with efficiency. MJ carried the load offensively and Pip was able to be the 2nd option to the greatest #1 of all time. He should be more efficient than a Kawhi. Kawhi who is clearly the #1 for the last few years.

You keep skirting the point.

The most "efficient" shots for TS% are 3 pint shots. In 93-94 NBA teams averaged between 9 and 10 3PA per game. For the WHOLE TEAM. In 19-20 Leonard averaged almost 6 attempts on his own.

You know why Reggie Miller compares so well to Leonard? He was out of the ordinary for his time because he took 5 to 7 3's a game depending on the season.

You can't compare TS% between eras.

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[CobyWhite0]

Or else Kawhi is a much better and more efficient offensive player than the greatest to ever play the game. Sure, I buy that.

Ts% is one of many metrics that Kawhi was better at. Reggie Miller had a higher ts% than all of them. You don't see me trying to say he was the best scorer. Scoring load has a big thing to do with efficiency. MJ carried the load offensively and Pip was able to be the 2nd option to the greatest #1 of all time. He should be more efficient than a Kawhi. Kawhi who is clearly the #1 for the last few years.

You keep skirting the point.

The most "efficient" shots for TS% are 3 pint shots. In 93-94 NBA teams averaged between 9 and 10 3PA per game. For the WHOLE TEAM. In 19-20 Leonard averaged almost 6 attempts on his own.

You know why Reggie Miller compares so well to Leonard? He was out of the ordinary for his time because he took 5 to 7 3's a game depending on the season.

You can't compare TS% between eras.

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I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many more times before I take my dying breath - this is often a problem when people who don't know how to use and interpret advanced stats try to use and interpret advanced stats. Period. End of story.

EDIT: I'll add that it's like comparing Johnny Unitas' passing yards per season to Tom Brady's (or Warner or Mahomes or any other non-GOAT) - completely different era, completely different rules, completely different game. Old farts like us understand this, young folks often don't.

Going simply off numbers, forget MJ, forget LeBron, forget Bird, forget Magic, forget EVERY NBA PLAYER - Wilt is the runaway GOAT, and it's not even remotely close. Even in today's all-offense NBA, NOBODY is ever going to have a 37/27 season.

Or a 38/27 season.
Or a 50/25 season.
Or a 45/24 season.

Those were, in order, Wilt's first 4 seasons.

[Chi town]

First, Pippen is certainly and superstar on my list. I don’t have a set of rigid criteria someone has to pass. That ignores the context of a player’s career.

Second, Kulaz is making the pertinent point here. Pip never put his team on his back and won a championship. True. But that’s kind of hard to do when you spend the entire prime of your career playing with the GOAT. Hard to out a team on your back when you are already on someone else’s back.

The one full season and postseason we got to see Pip be “the franchise” he was incredible and the team had an amazing season given the circumstances. Pip got that team to over-perform. 55 wins, one terrible call away from reaching the ECF, averaging 22/9/6/3. That’s superstar basketball and just a glimpse of what he could have done.

I have no doubt that had Pippen had entire teams built around him he would have been the type of the player who could have been the #1 on an elite contender.

MJ prevented this. Yet ironically, Pippen may never have turned into what he was without MJ relentlessly driving him. Kind of a catch-22.

I agree with this.

Also think Pip is a byproduct of what he learned from Jordan. The Pip we know wouldn't have been that player without being forced into greatness from the demands of Jordan.

Not to side track this discussion, but I never really liked the discussion when it pertains to how Pippen wouldn't have been Pippen if it wasn't for Jordan, whilst possible, I think Pippen also needs to be given credit for Jordan being Jordan also. I can't remember where I read it, it could have been the Jordan rules, but the story goes that Pippen was really good with his left hand, especially around the basket, and Jordan learned how to better use his left hand from Pippen. Not to mention, Jordan also had the benefit of playing against one of the best wing defenders of all time in Pippen on a regular basis in practice.

Point being, without being there to witness those two on a daily basis, I think they both benefitted from having each other to push and elevate their games.

Agreed. Pippen def helped Jordan as well. I just think Jordan helped shape Pippen more.