Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns?

[bwgood77]

KJ was great and I loved watching play but as of right now if any player named Luka or Durant or Harden or Lebron or Trae or Embid or Giannis had a triple double in their first ever or next western conference finals game one the national media would be licking their butt hole for the next week.

Scoring is up a lot from back then due to not allowing teams to play nearly as much defense and all the 3s, which also is going to inflate assists and rebounds as well with more shots going up and the faster pace then the 80s and 90s. But even guys in the NBA today who are 6'1 rarely get triple doubles. Westbrook at 6'3 does..that's about the closest...but most all those other guys are 6'6 to 7ft.

I think many teams box out now purposely too to let their primary ball handler get the rebound and ignite the fast break.

[handsome salary]

KJ was great and I loved watching play but as of right now if any player named Luka or Durant or Harden or Lebron or Trae or Embid or Giannis had a triple double in their first ever or next western conference finals game one the national media would be licking their butt hole for the next week.

Scoring is up a lot from back then due to not allowing teams to play nearly as much defense and all the 3s, which also is going to inflate assists and rebounds as well with more shots going up and the faster pace then the 80s and 90s.

You play who you play and you play when you play. The 92-93 Suns would have terrorized the 70's.

To be fair KJ could be at least Trae Young in this day.

[bwgood77]

KJ was great and I loved watching play but as of right now if any player named Luka or Durant or Harden or Lebron or Trae or Embid or Giannis had a triple double in their first ever or next western conference finals game one the national media would be licking their butt hole for the next week.

Scoring is up a lot from back then due to not allowing teams to play nearly as much defense and all the 3s, which also is going to inflate assists and rebounds as well with more shots going up and the faster pace then the 80s and 90s.

You play who you play and you play when you play. The 92-93 Suns would have terrorized the 70's.

Yeah, but you could also adjust for pts per 100 possessions.

The one thing Book has on KJ will be that he is just starting his playoff runs...KJ was on the downside of his career after this many years and already had his 5 All NBA years and greatest years. He had a few more good years.

In their first six years, KJ was easily better overall, but when you consider that Book is just getting to that level KJ was at in his 2nd year, and will probably continue to get better, Book will certainly pass him and should get as many All NBA teams at some point in his career.

I don't even know if I think Barkley should be #1 honestly. I would probably have him 3rd behind KJ and Nash who I feel are close. Barkley had the better overall careers but only really did much with the Suns for 3 years.

[handsome salary]

Whatever/ok.

Lets just enjoy the moment right now. I am. Its the less stressed I've been in any Suns conference finals that I can recall. So like Crowder I get to mambo. Watching them not get the chip since the 80's gives you a perspective. Typically its a "oh god whats next" but for some reason even with that this year I still dance.

They win they win. They lose and its just another notch on that post.

[lilfishi22]

Wasn't watching the NBA during the Barkley run and while the SSOL Suns playoff runs and the random 2010 run was exciting, I never really felt like there was a clear path to a championship.

The SSOL Suns always had our arch nemesis Spurs and Lakers stand in our way. Aside for the 2006 run where we lost to the Mavs team that got to the Finals, it was always the Spurs or Lakers that kept us down. Now that neither teams are in our way and arguably the two biggest favourites to win (Nets/Lakers) are out, it doesn't feel like we have that monkey on our back anymore. Not to say Clippers aren't a challenge or that they weren't a big favourite as well to win the title but the landscape has changed so much since the start of the playoffs that I can actually see the light for the first time ever as a Suns fan.

[bwgood77]

Whatever/ok.

Lets just enjoy the moment right now. I am. Its the less stressed I've been in any Suns conference finals that I can recall. So like Crowder I get to mambo. Watching them not get the chip since the 80's gives you a perspective. Typically its a "oh god whats next" but for some reason even with that this year I still dance.

They win they win. They lose and its just another notch on that post.

I agree. I kind of hate this thread was created when we should just be enjoying our great seasons and guys and careers should be evaluated after they are over.

But there are threads for everything and I want to be objective based on cumulative and career accomplisments if it is going to be discussed.

Booker is the brightest spot in over a decade so of course it's super exciting and we finally our a contender again so it's good to focus on that and not all these rankings of players whether here or the general board.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Came up with a short list of his best games so far in his career:

70 Points vs Boston @ The Garden
40 Point Triple Double vs Clippers without Chris Paul
46 Points Game 6 Close Out Game vs Lakers
46 Points beating Embiid and Simmons at Philadelphia
59 Points at Utah
35 Points Bubble Game Winner vs Clippers
50 Points vs Washington
32 Points Rookie Year Breakout Game 11th Career Start vs Indiana
28 Points 4th Quarter vs Dallas in Mexico

[Calvin Klein]

This one might have been better than the 70 point game considering the stakes, circumstances and the all around game. Same with the 47 point closer against LAL

[alamin330]

When it’s all said and done Booker will be #1 and Ayton has a chance to be #2
All I’m saying is that I don’t see why we give Nash an automatic over KJ.
KJ was AMAZING
6’1? Maybe. Remember these were the times they gave players extra inches. Barkley was 6’6 during these times. So maybe KJ was 6’1 but he played like a Westbrook/Morant type. Could dunk on your head. Ask Olajuwon. Was also clutch with a 46 points 10 assists and 1 turnover in 42 minutes in game 7 vs the eventual nba champs while making 21-22 free throws. Where was Barkley that game?

[alamin330]

Also as great as Nash was. He never got us to the finals. KJ did.

[bwgood77]

This one might have been better than the 70 point game considering the stakes, circumstances and the all around game. Same with the 47 point closer against LAL

Without a doubt...both of those and maybe others. That was a loss and I felt 56 were more natural and after that we were just trying to get him to 70, particularly the last few.

I will take a 35 pt game with 8 assists, 1 or 2 turnovers over a 70 pt game. And especially if he someday starts getting those Doncic, Harden or KJ type assist numbers with 14-17 in a game on occasion.

[bwgood77]

When it’s all said and done Booker will be #1 and Ayton has a chance to be #2
All I’m saying is that I don’t see why we give Nash an automatic over KJ.
KJ was AMAZING
6’1? Maybe. Remember these were the times they gave players extra inches. Barkley was 6’6 during these times. So maybe KJ was 6’1 but he played like a Westbrook/Morant type. Could dunk on your head. Ask Olajuwon. Was also clutch with a 46 points 10 assists and 1 turnover in 42 minutes in game 7 vs the eventual nba champs while making 21-22 free throws. Where was Barkley that game?

Honestly I don't think many here saw KJ, and old time fans like Bobster and a few others stated rankings above. I posted KJ's playoff stats and they were AMAZING and these were immediately when he became a starter in year 2, taking us to the WCF against the Showtime Lakers and beating them his 3rd year in 5 (with MVP Magic as well as them being defending champs). He had crazy stats in all sorts of games...like Chris Paul with more assists and more points.

I think some who saw KJ started watching when Barkley came aboard when KJ was on the downside of his prime too which, if so, makes it understandable they wouldn't have him as high as Nash. If they saw from 88 they'd likely get it.

[Saberestar]

Last April I created this thread and in my view Book has reinforced my theory.

To me he was already a Top 10 player in the league last year, but I recognize that I am biased about Book so I understand that some people did not have him there yet and probably they were right... but so far this season (20 games) I think he has improved his game and IMO there is no doubt about it now, he is a Top 10 player.

23.9 ppg, 5.1 boards, 4.3 assists, 41% from three on more than six attempts per game and good defense. 2nd record in the league.

If he continues to improve his efficiency and makes another step defensively we can even start talking about a potential MVP.

[LAKESHOW]

There is a Growing Myth in this League. And it ain't my team, we old. But the Legendary Status of Curry and the Warriors.
In my belief, there is only 1 team that can take them down. The Phoenix Suns. Books legacy aint gonna be shown in the numbers. It has to be shown by conquering these so called mythological threats. The Lebrons.
KDs. The Warriors with Curry, Thompson etcs represent that. Book and the Suns destroy that team, and move onto the Finals...his legacy and place in history will be made.

[DirtyDez]

Also as great as Nash was. He never got us to the finals. KJ did.

Barkley got us to the Finals. On the flip side KJ was unbelievable vs Houston and the rest of the team flamed out (especially Majerle). Regardless it should’ve have any correlation with Nash not getting there IMO

[Mulhollanddrive]

In my lifetime (80s onwards) I'd rank them:

1. Barkley
2. Nash
3. Paul
4. Johnson
5. Booker
6. Stoudemire

[lilfishi22]

In my lifetime (80s onwards) I'd rank them:

1. Barkley
2. Nash
3. Paul
4. Johnson
5. Booker
6. Stoudemire

#4 Eddie? Joe?

[garrick]

When it’s all said and done Booker will be #1 and Ayton has a chance to be #2
All I’m saying is that I don’t see why we give Nash an automatic over KJ.
KJ was AMAZING
6’1? Maybe. Remember these were the times they gave players extra inches. Barkley was 6’6 during these times. So maybe KJ was 6’1 but he played like a Westbrook/Morant type. Could dunk on your head. Ask Olajuwon. Was also clutch with a 46 points 10 assists and 1 turnover in 42 minutes in game 7 vs the eventual nba champs while making 21-22 free throws. Where was Barkley that game?

Honestly I don't think many here saw KJ, and old time fans like Bobster and a few others stated rankings above. I posted KJ's playoff stats and they were AMAZING and these were immediately when he became a starter in year 2, taking us to the WCF against the Showtime Lakers and beating them his 3rd year in 5 (with MVP Magic as well as them being defending champs). He had crazy stats in all sorts of games...like Chris Paul with more assists and more points.

I think some who saw KJ started watching when Barkley came aboard when KJ was on the downside of his prime too which, if so, makes it understandable they wouldn't have him as high as Nash. If they saw from 88 they'd likely get it.

Unfortunately I only started watching the Suns in 95-96 and he was well past his peak at this point so I never got to see him in his peak form but from the highlights this guy was just an amazing all around point guard whose only weakness was he was really bad from three.

I was hoping at the time KJ would recover from his injuries but he really only had one fully healthy season after but imagine what could have been had he been able to stay healthy in the latter part of his career.

[bwgood77]

When it’s all said and done Booker will be #1 and Ayton has a chance to be #2
All I’m saying is that I don’t see why we give Nash an automatic over KJ.
KJ was AMAZING
6’1? Maybe. Remember these were the times they gave players extra inches. Barkley was 6’6 during these times. So maybe KJ was 6’1 but he played like a Morant type. Could dunk on your head. Ask Olajuwon. Was also clutch with a 46 points 10 assists and 1 turnover in 42 minutes in game 7 vs the eventual nba champs while making 21-22 free throws. Where was Barkley that game?

Honestly I don't think many here saw KJ, and old time fans like Bobster and a few others stated rankings above. I posted KJ's playoff stats and they were AMAZING and these were immediately when he became a starter in year 2, taking us to the WCF against the Showtime Lakers and beating them his 3rd year in 5 (with MVP Magic as well as them being defending champs). He had crazy stats in all sorts of games...like Chris Paul with more assists and more points.

I think some who saw KJ started watching when Barkley came aboard when KJ was on the downside of his prime too which, if so, makes it understandable they wouldn't have him as high as Nash. If they saw from 88 they'd likely get it.

Unfortunately I only started watching the Suns in 95-96 and he was well past his peak at this point so I never got to see him in his peak form but from the highlights this guy was just an amazing all around point guard whose only weakness was he was really bad from three.

I was hoping at the time KJ would recover from his injuries but he really only had one fully healthy season after but imagine what could have been had he been able to stay healthy in the latter part of his career.

Yeah, he was the best Suns PG I've seen when it comes to completely electric scorer who could take over a game and score 40 or he could get 20 assists setting guys up. And he attacked.

The 3 ball wasn't really a big part of the NBA back then. Most teams had 1 or 2 guys who were 3 pt specialists, but no one really shooting like these days...I'm talking late 80s early 90s...like last year there was an average of 35 3s taken a game by a team, and NBA avg 3pt% was 36.7%. In 88 when KJ joined the Suns, teams averaged 5 3PA a game. 5 for a whole team in a game! And the avg was 31.6%.

It wasn't even a part of his game..he only shot like 20-40 a season during his prime. He was the type of shooter though, if he practiced it, could have been really good from there, and as a matter of fact in 96-97 he added it as a bigger part of his game and shot about 3 a game at over 44% from 3. The previous year he had gone up to about 1 a game at close to 37%.
/
It's amazing just how early his prime was. He was a rare guy who in years 2-5 averaged like 20+/10-12 assists per game and was leading his team to the WCF...making all nba teams and all star teams. If he didn't get derailed by injuries it would be interesting, but he had basically played his entire career for the Suns after we traded for him as a rookie. Funny before I looked back up at alamin's original post I was trying to think of a guy similar today, and I thought of a better Morant. Their 2nd years https://stathead.com/tiny/MOVNV KJ was really efficient, though as mentioned early he didn't shoot 3s. He still had close to a 60% TS% in his 2nd year which is pretty crazy...that along with 12.2 assists per game.k

You said you didn't start watching until 95-96, but reviewing closer, in 96-97 when he added the 3 to his game he averaged over 20ppg, with 9.3 apg, and shot over 44% from 3 with over a 63% TS% so he would have fit right in today's games along the best PGs or players period with those #s. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

KJ made 5 all nba teams in somewhat of a short career. I am probably biased but I would put him #1 for all time Suns players strictly because he played pretty much his entire career here. I think him vs Nash is a good argument (both were all nba 5x) but Nash played many years with the Mavs and finished with the Lakers and Barkley only played with the Suns for 4 years. I would possibly have the same argument for Book over those 2 if he played his full career for the Suns and had 4-5 all NBA teams and got at least to the WCF 3x. Barkley actually only made the WCF once with the Suns actually.

[garrick]

Honestly I don't think many here saw KJ, and old time fans like Bobster and a few others stated rankings above. I posted KJ's playoff stats and they were AMAZING and these were immediately when he became a starter in year 2, taking us to the WCF against the Showtime Lakers and beating them his 3rd year in 5 (with MVP Magic as well as them being defending champs). He had crazy stats in all sorts of games...like Chris Paul with more assists and more points.

I think some who saw KJ started watching when Barkley came aboard when KJ was on the downside of his prime too which, if so, makes it understandable they wouldn't have him as high as Nash. If they saw from 88 they'd likely get it.

Unfortunately I only started watching the Suns in 95-96 and he was well past his peak at this point so I never got to see him in his peak form but from the highlights this guy was just an amazing all around point guard whose only weakness was he was really bad from three.

I was hoping at the time KJ would recover from his injuries but he really only had one fully healthy season after but imagine what could have been had he been able to stay healthy in the latter part of his career.

Yeah, he was the best Suns PG I've seen when it comes to completely electric scorer who could take over a game and score 40 or he could get 20 assists setting guys up. And he attacked.

The 3 ball wasn't really a big part of the NBA back then. Most teams had 1 or 2 guys who were 3 pt specialists, but no one really shooting like these days...I'm talking late 80s early 90s...like last year there was an average of 35 3s taken a game by a team, and NBA avg 3pt% was 36.7%. In 88 when KJ joined the Suns, teams averaged 5 3PA a game. 5 for a whole team in a game! And the avg was 31.6%.

It wasn't even a part of his game..he only shot like 20-40 a season during his prime. He was the type of shooter though, if he practiced it, could have been really good from there, and as a matter of fact in 96-97 he added it as a bigger part of his game and shot about 3 a game at over 44% from 3. The previous year he had gone up to about 1 a game at close to 37%.
/
It's amazing just how early his prime was. He was a rare guy who in years 2-5 averaged like 20+/10-12 assists per game and was leading his team to the WCF...making all nba teams and all star teams. If he didn't get derailed by injuries it would be interesting, but he had basically played his entire career for the Suns after we traded for him as a rookie. Funny before I looked back up at alamin's original post I was trying to think of a guy similar today, and I thought of a better Morant. Their 2nd years https://stathead.com/tiny/MOVNV KJ was really efficient, though as mentioned early he didn't shoot 3s. He still had close to a 60% TS% in his 2nd year which is pretty crazy...that along with 12.2 assists per game.k

You said you didn't start watching until 95-96, but reviewing closer, in 96-97 when he added the 3 to his game he averaged over 20ppg, with 9.3 apg, and shot over 44% from 3 with over a 63% TS% so he would have fit right in today's games along the best PGs or players period with those #s. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

KJ made 5 all nba teams in somewhat of a short career. I am probably biased but I would put him #1 for all time Suns players strictly because he played pretty much his entire career here. I think him vs Nash is a good argument (both were all nba 5x) but Nash played many years with the Mavs and finished with the Lakers and Barkley only played with the Suns for 4 years. I would possibly have the same argument for Book over those 2 if he played his full career for the Suns and had 4-5 all NBA teams and got at least to the WCF 3x. Barkley actually only made the WCF once with the Suns actually.

In 96-97 that was the season with the shortened 3pt line and yeah I remember he had a pretty good shooting season but the next season his averages went back down after they moved the 3pt line back farther.