Trade Talk (Part Six)

[Baseline81]

1. You may win regular season games with Vanderbilt, and more regular season games with Simmons. However, if they can’t shoot, playoff teams will scheme them and you will lose.
2. If you add Simmons, you have less financial wiggle room, and no high picks.
3. I don’t want to be an ORL, who has a treadmill team. MIN has finally got it’s players healthy, they have one of the youngest teams in the league, Ant could be great, and we may get a top 3 pick. Simmons is not a playoff player, and while he increases our floor, he reduces our ceiling. We will never be an actual contender with Simmons, especially when we are forced to build around him, so I think Simmons is a shortcut path to a dead end.

One playoff trip in 15 years or so. And not many where the team even competed. To say you wouldn't want the Wolves to be in the playoffs out of fear of becoming a treadmill team...

You didn't answer my question regarding how the Wolves improve this summer (outside of the development of Edwards and McDaniels)?

One thing you fail to mention in several of your posts is the future of Towns. He's currently saying all the right things, but should the team continue to miss out on the post season, he may leave. Bringing in Simmons likely halts that.

[TheZachAttack]

1. You may win regular season games with Vanderbilt, and more regular season games with Simmons. However, if they can’t shoot, playoff teams will scheme them and you will lose.
2. If you add Simmons, you have less financial wiggle room, and no high picks.
3. I don’t want to be an ORL, who has a treadmill team. MIN has finally got it’s players healthy, they have one of the youngest teams in the league, Ant could be great, and we may get a top 3 pick. Simmons is not a playoff player, and while he increases our floor, he reduces our ceiling. We will never be an actual contender with Simmons, especially when we are forced to build around him, so I think Simmons is a shortcut path to a dead end.

One playoff trip in 15 years or so. And not many where the team even competed. To say you wouldn't want the Wolves to be in the playoffs out of fear of becoming a treadmill team...

You didn't answer my question regarding how the Wolves improve this summer (outside of the development of Edwards and McDaniels)?

One thing you fail to mention in several of your posts is the future of Towns. He's currently saying all the right things, but should the team continue to miss out on the post season, he may leave. Bringing in Simmons likely halts that.

I'm not sure if I want Simmons. I also think the Wolves roster would be much better than Orlando's peak is/was (Towns, Edwards, and Simmons are all better than any "Magic" player including Vucevic and Fournier). I do think this board tends to think "why should we make a move if it won't make us championship favorites?" I think we need to get away from that thinking. If you get to the contending/playoff level, you will have free agents, veterans, stars, etc. who will actually consider you. We need to get to a playoff and/or somewhat contender first level before making the jump to true contender.

[shrink]

1. You may win regular season games with Vanderbilt, and more regular season games with Simmons. However, if they can’t shoot, playoff teams will scheme them and you will lose.
2. If you add Simmons, you have less financial wiggle room, and no high picks.
3. I don’t want to be an ORL, who has a treadmill team. MIN has finally got it’s players healthy, they have one of the youngest teams in the league, Ant could be great, and we may get a top 3 pick. Simmons is not a playoff player, and while he increases our floor, he reduces our ceiling. We will never be an actual contender with Simmons, especially when we are forced to build around him, so I think Simmons is a shortcut path to a dead end.

1. One playoff trip in 15 years or so. And not many where the team even competed. To say you wouldn't want the Wolves to be in the playoffs out of fear of becoming a treadmill team...

2. You didn't answer my question regarding how the Wolves improve this summer (outside of the development of Edwards and McDaniels)?

3. One thing you fail to mention in several of your posts is the future of Towns. He's currently saying all the right things, but should the team continue to miss out on the post season, he may leave. Bringing in Simmons likely halts that.

1. I think we will just have to disagree on what the goal of the Wolves should be.

2. I thought I did answer your question about how the wolves could improve this summer without Simmons in #3, but here goes:

A. We should be better this season because we finally get our whole team to play together
B. We are a very young team, so we can obviously get better through internal development, particularly Ant and Jaden, but even our “veterans” haven’t reached their prime yet.
C. We could clearly be better this summer if we get a top 3 pick in this lottery tomorrow
D. We could get better simply keeping the door open to other trades.
E. We could be better because Chris Finch gets an off-season to implement his system.

.. and remember, despite all this stuff, we finished the season 11-11.

3. Ah the, “if you don’t do my favorite trade, you’ll lose Towns!”-line. I hear it all the time on the trade board. So “bringing in Simmons halts that?” Wasn’t “bringing in DLO” supposed to halt that? That KAT thing that hasn’t even happened, but is somehow the main reason for most of the MIN trades on the board?

[shrink]

I'm not sure if I want Simmons. I also think the Wolves roster would be much better than Orlando's peak is/was (Towns, Edwards, and Simmons are all better than any "Magic" player including Vucevic and Fournier).

True, but ORL padded it’s record by playing more of it’s schedule against the East. They were a constant #7 seed in the East, but that’s a lot easier than MIN can become a #7 seed in the West. Both teams are likely first round exits.

I do think this board tends to think "why should we make a move if it won't make us championship favorites?" I think we need to get away from that thinking. If you get to the contending/playoff level, you will have free agents, veterans, stars, etc. who will actually consider you. We need to get to a playoff and/or somewhat contender first level before making the jump to true contender.

First round exits don’t make you a “true contender that free agents flock to.” When MIN had KG, and made the playoffs for many years in a row, rarely advancing, did you see a flock of stars hoping we’d clear some cap space to join? MIN is unlikely to ever be a free agent destination until we are a true contender (top 4, not 10-16), and maybe not even then. We should resign ourselves to the fact that the Timberwolves most likely avenues for advancement are through the draft, and through trades.

[UnFadeable21]

If the wolves hit the lotto tomorrow

Top 3 pick, Rubio, Juancho, & Culver for Simmons

[TheZachAttack]

I'm not sure if I want Simmons. I also think the Wolves roster would be much better than Orlando's peak is/was (Towns, Edwards, and Simmons are all better than any "Magic" player including Vucevic and Fournier).

True, but ORL padded it’s wins in the East. I think both teams make the playoffs, and both teams are likely first round exits.

I do think this board tends to think "why should we make a move if it won't make us championship favorites?" I think we need to get away from that thinking. If you get to the contending/playoff level, you will have free agents, veterans, stars, etc. who will actually consider you. We need to get to a playoff and/or somewhat contender first level before making the jump to true contender.

First round exits don’t make you a “true contender that free agents flock to.” When MIN had KG, and made the playoffs for many years in a row, rarely advancing, did you see a flock of stars hoping we’d clear some cap space to join? MIN is unlikely to ever be a free agent destination until we are a true contender (top 4, not 10-16), and maybe not even then. We should resign ourselves to the fact that the Timberwolves most likely avenues for advancement are through the draft, and through trades.

I mean that's true, but I think that Simmons/Towns/Edwards should theoretically get you closer to top 4 than 10-16.In addition, how do you think the Suns got Paul? Do you think they would have gotten Paul if they were a team that was getting periennial bottom 5 picks? Nothing is forsure, but if we start trending upwards it will be much easier for us to build. I think the most important part is to take steps in the right direction and keep building from there. The end goal doesn't have to be the roster after one trade.

If Simmons value is truly as low as some make it out to seem, there's a world where he becomes overrated. Simmons is a flawed player, that's clear, but in either case he still has very real strengths--especially in the regular season. I'm not going to overpay for Simmons and I'm not going to do so without clear consideration of the impact to the Wolves overall spacing in the half court and also clogging the paint for Edwards--but there's a reality in which Simmons significantly helps the Wolves address some of their biggest weaknesses. That is, Simmons makes the Wolves a much more dangerous transition and defensive team. The Wolves would finally have a true ELITE (maybe best in the league) point of attack defender and a guy who can actually control things in transition for easy baskets.

We already have our #1/#2 (and arguably #3 scoring option in Towns/Edwards and D Lo or Beasley), we don't need Simmons to do what Philly needs him to do in the half court. Again, I'm torn on this for the same reasons you are--but it may be worth a gamble because if it does pay off... it would be a path towards the Wolves being a true contender.

I also trust Finch to be creative enough to put players in spots to make them successful--that's his strength as a coach.

[ChiefKeith91]

If your main argument against Simmons trade is cap space, I’d say you need a better one because realistically we aren’t landing anyone in FA that for sure makes us a playoff team. Fans have this illusion that you need to have cap space available but realistically nobody willing comes to Minny if they have other offers saw with Milsap, JaMychal and others. You have to make MIN desirable and you do so by getting to the playoffs now.

Plus let’s say we don’t make a trade and keep cap space open, if KAT decides to leave then we’ll have an even bigger problem. I have a hard team believing KAT will want to leave if we are contending in the West and he gets to play with his friends (DLo and Ben). If we truly are in win now mode then Rosas has to at least consider a Simmons trade.


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[shrink]

I mean that's true, but I think that Simmons/Towns/Edwards should theoretically get you closer to top 4 than 10-16.In addition, how do you think the Suns got Paul? Do you think they would have gotten Paul if they were a team that was getting periennial bottom 5 picks?

I’m glad you posted this, because I misstated my position a bit.

I don’t know if Simmons/Towns/Edwards could make the Wolves a top 4 team in the regular season. The West is pretty good, but maybe they could. However, they may still have the #7 Vegas odds of winning in the first round. I feel Simmons creates an impossible hole that any halfway decent playoff team can exploit over seven games.

The Suns WERE getting bottom five picks, with Ayton and trading #6 Culver. Their turnaround since last year’s Bubble has been startling, and should give encouragement to a team like the Wolves that are filled with youth. But Chris Paul didn’t come to PHX as a free agent - he was traded, plus he was only traded so cheap because people thought he was too old and expensive.

And keep in mind, Chris Paul is a two-way playoff vet .. Simmons playoffs aren’t anything like CP3.

[jpatrick]

If the wolves hit the lotto tomorrow

Top 3 pick, Rubio, Juancho, & Culver for Simmons

Simmons, Towns, DLo, Beasley, and Edwards will make about 118m combined next year. The lux tax this year was about 132m.

I don’t see us being a tax team, so can we really field a team with those five and essentially minimum players? I don’t think so. That’s why I think DLo would have to go out in any Simmons deal. Bring in the #3 pick if we get lucky, which is cost controlled.

[Baseline81]

1. I think we will just have to disagree on what the goal of the Wolves should be.

2. I thought I did answer your question about how the wolves could improve this summer without Simmons in #3, but here goes:

A. We should be better this season because we finally get our whole team to play together
B. We are a very young team, so we can obviously get better through internal development, particularly Ant and Jaden, but even our “veterans” haven’t reached their prime yet.
C. We could clearly be better this summer if we get a top 3 pick in this lottery tomorrow
D. We could get better simply keeping the door open to other trades.
E. We could be better because Chris Finch gets an off-season to implement his system.

.. and remember, despite all this stuff, we finished the season 11-11.

3. Ah the, “if you don’t do my favorite trade, you’ll lose Towns!”-line. I hear it all the time on the trade board. So “bringing in Simmons halts that?” Wasn’t “bringing in DLO” supposed to halt that? That KAT thing that hasn’t even happened, but is somehow the main reason for most of the MIN trades on the board?

There are different ways to building a championship-caliber team.

A. No guarantee the core will remain healthy.
B. Remains even with a trade for Simmons.
C. 27.6%
D. I'm not sure what other trades are available when you are shopping the likes of Beasley, Hernangomez, Layman, Okogie and Rubio. Obviously, whether the team has a pick factors into this.
E. Again, the same can be said should the Wolves make a deal for Simmons.

I never used that quoted line above. Even I rebuffed such trade hypotheticals THIS season because of Town's contract length. I am simply pointing out that if changes aren't made in the next year or two, and the team continues to be on the outside of the playoffs, it's foolish to not think Towns may leave.

[UnFadeable21]

If the wolves hit the lotto tomorrow

Top 3 pick, Rubio, Juancho, & Culver for Simmons

Simmons, Towns, DLo, Beasley, and Edwards will make about 118m combined next year. The lux tax this year was about 132m.

I don’t see us being a tax team, so can we really field a team with those five and essentially minimum players? I don’t think so. That’s why I think DLo would have to go out in any Simmons deal. Bring in the #3 pick if we get lucky, which is cost controlled.

Simmons
DLo
Ant
Jaden
KAT

Balmaro
Beasley
Okogie
Vando
Naz

[shrink]

If your main argument against Simmons trade is cap space, I’d say you need a better one because realistically we aren’t landing anyone in FA that for sure makes us a playoff team. Fans have this illusion that you need to have cap space available but realistically nobody willing comes to Minny if they have other offers saw with Milsap, JaMychal and others. You have to make MIN desirable and you do so by getting to the playoffs now.

I don’t think that is anyone’s main reason. In most cases, MIN isn’t talking about adding a player with cap space - they want to reduce their payroll to stay under the luxury threshold. This gives them more flexibility in making trades, and/or picking up a complimentary piece with an exception that might otherwise go unused. Whether we trade for Ben or not, we aren’t getting cap space with KAT and DLo on max deals already. I agree with you though - true free agency is not where MIN will thrive.

[shrink]

1. I think we will just have to disagree on what the goal of the Wolves should be.

2. I thought I did answer your question about how the wolves could improve this summer without Simmons in #3, but here goes:

A. We should be better this season because we finally get our whole team to play together
B. We are a very young team, so we can obviously get better through internal development, particularly Ant and Jaden, but even our “veterans” haven’t reached their prime yet.
C. We could clearly be better this summer if we get a top 3 pick in this lottery tomorrow
D. We could get better simply keeping the door open to other trades.
E. We could be better because Chris Finch gets an off-season to implement his system.

.. and remember, despite all this stuff, we finished the season 11-11.

3. Ah the, “if you don’t do my favorite trade, you’ll lose Towns!”-line. I hear it all the time on the trade board. So “bringing in Simmons halts that?” Wasn’t “bringing in DLO” supposed to halt that? That KAT thing that hasn’t even happened, but is somehow the main reason for most of the MIN trades on the board?

There are different ways to building a championship-caliber team.

A. No guarantee the core will remain healthy.
B. Remains even with a trade for Simmons.
C. 27.6%
D. I'm not sure what other trades are available when you are shopping the likes of Beasley, Hernangomez, Layman, Okogie and Rubio. Obviously, whether the team has a pick factors into this.
E. Again, the same can be said should the Wolves make a deal for Simmons.

I never used that quoted line above. Even I rebuffed such trade hypotheticals THIS season because of Town's contract length. I am simply pointing out that if changes aren't made in the next year or two, and the team continues to be on the outside of the playoffs, it's foolish to not think Towns may leave.

Argh! Dude! You asked how MIN could be better this summer. I gave you five answers to your question

Shall I dismiss your arguments of things like “young players get better with” .. “but they could get hurt?” Simmons could get hurt too.

That seems like arguing just to argue.

[shrink]

If the wolves hit the lotto tomorrow

Top 3 pick, Rubio, Juancho, & Culver for Simmons

Simmons, Towns, DLo, Beasley, and Edwards will make about 118m combined next year. The lux tax this year was about 132m.

I don’t see us being a tax team, so can we really field a team with those five and essentially minimum players? I don’t think so. That’s why I think DLo would have to go out in any Simmons deal. Bring in the #3 pick if we get lucky, which is cost controlled.

Simmons
DLo
Ant
Jaden
KAT

Balmaro
Beasley
Okogie
Vando
Naz

I agree with you both here. We should give Rosas a lot of credit for finding some ultra-cheap complimentary players, that might make a roster with three guys getting over $30 mil a year possible. However, we could never hold onto them - if they have roles, they will want to get paid next year. And we aren’t getting Blake Griffin to come to play in Minnesota for the vet min.

And for the record, I definitely wouldn’t give up a top three pick in this draft for Simmons - that could be a franchise level player.

[Note30]

If we get Cunnigham and that's a huge if,

We should go big.

I'd trade Towns for Lillard (if Portland is looking to blow it up and rebuild), and DLo for Myles Turner & Justin Holiday, and Rubio + juancho+ Culver plus a UFRP for Fred VanVleet Boucher and Baynes.

Lillard / VanVleet
Edwards / Beasley
Cunningham / Holiday
McDaniels / xx?
Turner / Boucher / Baynes

Picks adjusted as necessary. We'd still have a hole at PF, but hopefully we could fill that in FA.

Some vet names to fill those holes could be, PJ Tucker, Jeff Green, Bobby Portis, Daniel Theis, Rudy Gay.

[Note30]

I don't see the fit with Simmons here why is everyone posting about him. We literally spent over half a decade with a PG that cant shoot and gives up layups.... To pay the max for a PG that can't shoot and gives up layups?

If we want a good defender that's another topic because Ben Simmons isn't going to fix the defense on this team. So unless we want him for his rebounding.... Which I guess is a thing we need, I don't understand this at all.

[life_saver]

I don't see the fit with Simmons here why is everyone posting about him. We literally spent over half a decade with a PG that cant shoot and gives up layups.... To pay the max for a PG that can't shoot and gives up layups?

If we want a good defender that's another topic because Ben Simmons isn't going to fix the defense on this team. So unless we want him for his rebounding.... Which I guess is a thing we need, I don't understand this at all.

I don't think people see Simmons playing as PG at Wolves...they seem him playing at 4 alongside KAT

[Note30]

I don't see the fit with Simmons here why is everyone posting about him. We literally spent over half a decade with a PG that cant shoot and gives up layups.... To pay the max for a PG that can't shoot and gives up layups?

If we want a good defender that's another topic because Ben Simmons isn't going to fix the defense on this team. So unless we want him for his rebounding.... Which I guess is a thing we need, I don't understand this at all.

I don't think people see Simmons playing as PG at Wolves...they seem him playing at 4 alongside KAT

That's even worse, if he's not facilitating and he can't score then what is he doing?

[BlacJacMac]

I don't see the fit with Simmons here why is everyone posting about him. We literally spent over half a decade with a PG that cant shoot and gives up layups.... To pay the max for a PG that can't shoot and gives up layups?

If we want a good defender that's another topic because Ben Simmons isn't going to fix the defense on this team. So unless we want him for his rebounding.... Which I guess is a thing we need, I don't understand this at all.

I don't think people see Simmons playing as PG at Wolves...they seem him playing at 4 alongside KAT

That's even worse, if he's not facilitating and he can't score then what is he doing?

Can you not facilitate from the front court? Jokic does it, LeBron does it. Simmons defending and being defended by PFs has no bearing on if he brings the ball up or initiates offense. Especially in Finch's system.

Positions are more important on defense than offense.

[Note30]

I don't think people see Simmons playing as PG at Wolves...they seem him playing at 4 alongside KAT

That's even worse, if he's not facilitating and he can't score then what is he doing?

Can you not facilitate from the front court? Jokic does it, LeBron does it. Simmons defending and being defended by PFs has no bearing on if he brings the ball up or initiates offense. Especially in Finch's system.

Positions are more important on defense than offense.

Both of those guys can score at will. Finches system works great for KAT because he's a score first guy. Simmons can't. If he's facilitating in the front court that means he has to be able to score. And if all he's doing is handoffs and screens and the occasional fade away, I'm not a huge fan of paying him 30mill a year and wasting the cap space for it.