Trade Talk (Part Six)

[SO_MONEY]

That's even worse, if he's not facilitating and he can't score then what is he doing?

Can you not facilitate from the front court? Jokic does it, LeBron does it. Simmons defending and being defended by PFs has no bearing on if he brings the ball up or initiates offense. Especially in Finch's system.

Positions are more important on defense than offense.

Both of those guys can score at will. Finches system works great for KAT because he's a score first guy. Simmons can't. If he's facilitating in the front court that means he has to be able to score. And if all he's doing is handoffs and screens and the occasional fade away, I'm not a huge fan of paying him 30mill a year and wasting the cap space for it.

I think it is obvious no team wants to pay him 30mil, which means a swap of decent players on bad contracts or a nothing return in a salary dump. If he brings in any real value I would be shocked. Because of this I am not sure PHI trades him.

[twix2500]

If we can only get a player because they are flawed you shouldn't be sending out any real value. You send out value for players without glaring flaws.

Shaquille O'Neal had flaws. He was a horrible FT shooter and had basically no offensive game outside of 5 feet. You wouldn't have sent out real value to acquire him if you had the chance?

C'mon.

This isn't a serious reply.

[Mattya]

Ben Simmons is a great finisher, cutter, excellent passing the ball, excellent in dribble hand offs, and one of the best and potentially the most versatile defenders in the league. He struggled in the Hawks series, but I’m not using one stretch of looking that bad to ignore all the good he does. All the negativity clearly got into his head. If he didn’t have a bad series we wouldn’t even be able to realistically afford a trade for him. Part of the problem is the system and players around him. He isn’t a #1 option and they have no other really perimeter players that can collapse a defense or cause rotations. I personally think Edwards would do wonders for Simmons.

Simmons or McDaniels defending the best player on the other team, allowing the other and Edwards to play passing lanes. That is very exciting.

[MN7725]

Ben Simmons is a great finisher, cutter, excellent passing the ball, excellent in dribble hand offs, and one of the best and potentially the most versatile defenders in the league. He struggled in the Hawks series, but I’m not using one stretch of looking that bad to ignore all the good he does. All the negativity clearly got into his head. If he didn’t have a bad series we wouldn’t even be able to realistically afford a trade for him. Part of the problem is the system and players around him. He isn’t a #1 option and they have no other really perimeter players that can collapse a defense or cause rotations. I personally think Edwards would do wonders for Simmons.

Simmons or McDaniels defending the best player on the other team, allowing the other and Edwards to play passing lanes. That is very exciting.

if you were looking at it from a strictly from player fit POV, wouldn't KAT be the top "C" for Simmons?

wouldn't Embiid be the top "C" for Russell, since he's limited defensively and doesn't really attack the paint offensively?

The starting point is usually the opposite, what would be the best fit for KAT/Embiid, but Wolves and Philly have big contracts for players that are problematic for their best player, so they have to deal with that reality

[Norseman79]

Ben Simmons is a great finisher, cutter, excellent passing the ball, excellent in dribble hand offs, and one of the best and potentially the most versatile defenders in the league. He struggled in the Hawks series, but I’m not using one stretch of looking that bad to ignore all the good he does. All the negativity clearly got into his head. If he didn’t have a bad series we wouldn’t even be able to realistically afford a trade for him. Part of the problem is the system and players around him. He isn’t a #1 option and they have no other really perimeter players that can collapse a defense or cause rotations. I personally think Edwards would do wonders for Simmons.

Simmons or McDaniels defending the best player on the other team, allowing the other and Edwards to play passing lanes. That is very exciting.

if you were looking at it from a strictly from player fit POV, wouldn't KAT be the top "C" for Simmons?

wouldn't Embiid be the top "C" for Russell, since he's limited defensively and doesn't really attack the paint offensively?

The starting point is usually the opposite, what would be the best fit for KAT/Embiid, but Wolves and Philly have big contracts for players that are problematic for their best player, so they have to deal with that reality

Let's say we keep the three...is Russell enough for Simmons straight up and then take Suggs?

[TheZachAttack]

If the wolves hit the lotto tomorrow

Top 3 pick, Rubio, Juancho, & Culver for Simmons

Simmons, Towns, DLo, Beasley, and Edwards will make about 118m combined next year. The lux tax this year was about 132m.

I don’t see us being a tax team, so can we really field a team with those five and essentially minimum players? I don’t think so. That’s why I think DLo would have to go out in any Simmons deal. Bring in the #3 pick if we get lucky, which is cost controlled.

I think the Wolves are uniquely positioned to do so to some extent. It seems like the Wolves could keep McDaniels on a rookie deal & McLaughlin, Naz, Nowell and Vanderbuilt all on Gupta specials at a minimum for the duration of those contract issues. So, in my mind, to some extent...yes the Wolves are uniquely positioned to have a cost controlled bench and take on a salary like Simmons.

[Wolves21]

Spoiler:

Ben Simmons is a great finisher, cutter, excellent passing the ball, excellent in dribble hand offs, and one of the best and potentially the most versatile defenders in the league. He struggled in the Hawks series, but I’m not using one stretch of looking that bad to ignore all the good he does. All the negativity clearly got into his head. If he didn’t have a bad series we wouldn’t even be able to realistically afford a trade for him. Part of the problem is the system and players around him. He isn’t a #1 option and they have no other really perimeter players that can collapse a defense or cause rotations. I personally think Edwards would do wonders for Simmons.

Simmons or McDaniels defending the best player on the other team, allowing the other and Edwards to play passing lanes. That is very exciting.

if you were looking at it from a strictly from player fit POV, wouldn't KAT be the top "C" for Simmons?

wouldn't Embiid be the top "C" for Russell, since he's limited defensively and doesn't really attack the paint offensively?

The starting point is usually the opposite, what would be the best fit for KAT/Embiid, but Wolves and Philly have big contracts for players that are problematic for their best player, so they have to deal with that reality

Let's say we keep the three...is Russell enough for Simmons straight up and then take Suggs?

Don't think Russell for Simmons straight up would be enough for the 76'ers.Think anytype of trade for Simmons would have to included a 1st round pick.

I could see a deal like Russell/1st or Rubio/Beasley/1st for Simmons.

As other stated don't think the Wolves or the new owners are really going to want to pay the MAX or damn near close for Towns/Russell/Simmons plus in two years or so when Edwards will be looking for the MAX.

Agree that to get Simmons more then likely Russell would have to go in the trade.If so this would open the door to keep Rubio who Edwards loves and seem like the only leader on the team last season.

Rubio
Edwards
McDaniels
Simmons
Towns

That's a very good defensive starting five but shooting would be and issue unless Edwards & McDaniels take a big step next season.But Beasley could slide into the starting five over McDaniels if we need more scoring or could fill the role to a T as our 6th man.

[shrink]

Some good posts on the last few pages. Personally, I think Simmons is a one-way street to mediocrity, but setting that aside, looking at it solely as a trade exercise…

MN 7725 is right that KAT is a great compliment for Simmons, maybe the best on the league. However, Simmons inability to shoot makes Ben a lesser compliment to KAT. He helps a lot defensively, but he doesn’t spread the floor, which removes KAT’s greatest match up advantage, and clogs the lane for Edwards. I would prefer to build the team around KAT and Edwards rather than the more daunting task of building around Simmons, and Ben’s mismatched game makes that the team’s new priority.

More interesting is DLo. I will start by saying that I have never been a fan, but I predicted his trade being for Wiggins plus rather than Covington like most said, because it kept Rosas from being locked down with three max deals. A deal for Simmons that sent out Russell would do the same thing. And while we always poopoo Russell trades because he’s KAT’s friend, Simmons is also his friend, and he’s more talented.

It is also interesting that while there are very few teams where DLo makes sense in this crowded PG market, PHI is one of them. They need creation. They need shooting. They need a guy that they can put the ball in his hands at the end of the game. And DLo’s defense is less of an issue in PHI with so many strong defensive players. If we wanted to trade Russell, it would be hard to imagine an opportunity as good as this.

Again, I don’t like the idea of trading for Ben Simmons, but offering DLo and Beasley (instead of a future 1st) for Simmons and George Hill (re-route later) makes technical sense.

[Slim Tubby]

Anyone mentioning that Ant or a Top 3 Pick could be included in a package for Simmons should receive an immediate 6 month ban.

You simply cannot have a Max player under your cap that can’t/won’t shoot and is unplayable at the end of tight games.

I’m as intrigued about adding Simmons as anyone but his enormous weaknesses as a basketball player quickly overcome my curiosity about him in a Wolves uniform.

PHI is totally screwed. Everyone is hammering Ben right now but they have another huge dud in Harris that is also maxed out and $4M per year more than Simmons. “The process” is officially dead and it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Embiid demands to be dealt.


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[karch34]

If we get Cunnigham and that's a huge if,

We should go big.

I'd trade Towns for Lillard (if Portland is looking to blow it up and rebuild), and DLo for Myles Turner & Justin Holiday, and Rubio + juancho+ Culver plus a UFRP for Fred VanVleet Boucher and Baynes.

Lillard / VanVleet
Edwards / Beasley
Cunningham / Holiday
McDaniels / xx?
Turner / Boucher / Baynes

Picks adjusted as necessary. We'd still have a hole at PF, but hopefully we could fill that in FA.

Some vet names to fill those holes could be, PJ Tucker, Jeff Green, Bobby Portis, Daniel Theis, Rudy Gay.

Cunningham would open up a lot of possibilities, but I still see his best fit at PG and the moves trading ~$45m/year in PGs for ~$60m/yr in PGs.

[karch34]

Some good posts on the last few pages. Personally, I think Simmons is a one-way street to mediocrity, but setting that aside, looking at it solely as a trade exercise…

MN 7725 is right that KAT is a great compliment for Simmons, maybe the best on the league. However, Simmons inability to shoot makes Ben a lesser compliment to KAT. He helps a lot defensively, but he doesn’t spread the floor, which removes KAT’s greatest match up advantage, and clogs the lane for Edwards. I would prefer to build the team around KAT and Edwards rather than the more daunting task of building around Simmons, and Ben’s mismatched game makes that the team’s new priority.

More interesting is DLo. I will start by saying that I have never been a fan, but I predicted his trade being for Wiggins plus rather than Covington like most said, because it kept Rosas from being locked down with three max deals. A deal for Simmons that sent out Russell would do the same thing. And while we always poopoo Russell trades because he’s KAT’s friend, Simmons is also his friend, and he’s more talented.

It is also interesting that while there are very few teams where DLo makes sense in this crowded PG market, PHI is one of them. They need creation. They need shooting. They need a guy that they can put the ball in his hands at the end of the game. And DLo’s defense is less of an issue in PHI with so many strong defensive players. If we wanted to trade Russell, it would be hard to imagine an opportunity as good as this.

Again, I don’t like the idea of trading for Ben Simmons, but offering DLo and Beasley (instead of a future 1st) for Simmons and George Hill (re-route later) makes technical sense.

As a trade exercise I see this as an opportunity to move DLo, but DLo and Beasley being moved along with their shooting kind of negates a lot of what you'd want around Simmons to give it a possibility of working, IMO.

[shangrila]

Some good posts on the last few pages. Personally, I think Simmons is a one-way street to mediocrity, but setting that aside, looking at it solely as a trade exercise…

I like how you say that like it's a bad thing.

[minimus]

MIN IN: Simmons, Joe Harris
MIN OUT: Rubio, Beasley, Culver, Okogie, Juancho, 2023, 2025 first round picks

TOR IN: Rubio, Culver, 2025 MIN FRP
TOR OUT: Lowry (S&T) 50 mil/2yrs

PHI IN: Lowry, Juancho, 2023 MIN FRP
PHI OUT: Simmons

BRO IN: Beasley, Okogie
BRO OUT: Joe Harris

Why for MIN: get elite defender, surround Simmons with 4 shooters
Why for PHI: get veteran PG for another run in playoffs
Why for TOR: get temporar solution at PG with Rubio, get assets
Why for BRO: reset situation after Harris playoff dissappointment

Then sign Torrey Craig, Khem Birch

KAT/Reid/Birch
Simmons/Craig/Vando
Harris/McDaniels/Layman
Edwards/Nowell/Bolmaro
Russell/McLaughlin/Bolmaro

[shrink]

Some good posts on the last few pages. Personally, I think Simmons is a one-way street to mediocrity, but setting that aside, looking at it solely as a trade exercise…

I like how you say that like it's a bad thing.

I think people are under a misconception that the only path to being a good team is a gradual process that involves being an average team first. That may be true for a free agent destination like the Knicks, but we have just seen a team go from awful to great .. since Covid! The Suns were a horrible team full of very young players until a surprising run in the bubble, and in one season they are legitimate contenders for a ring. Things can change that fast, and that should be our blueprint as well.

Let’s look at the four ways to improve our team, and compare it to stopping at mediocre.

Free agency. Going from bad to mediocre helps, but we won’t draw top free agents whether we are bad or mediocre. Net zero.
Trade. No effect. Any player can be traded, and while top ones may have preferences like FA’s, being mediocre isn’t enough.
Draft. Negative effect. Mediocre teams get worse picks in the draft.
Internal growth. Young players have more room for growth than vets.

I don’t disagree that being mediocre would be a step up for the Wolves historically. But remember, even with our current issues, we ended the season at 11-11 .. almost the definition of “mediocre.” I have enough optimism to prefer to aim higher than “mediocre.”

[Godaddycurse]

MIN IN: Simmons, Joe Harris
MIN OUT: Rubio, Beasley, Culver, Okogie, Juancho, 2023, 2025 first round picks

TOR IN: Rubio, Culver, 2025 MIN FRP
TOR OUT: Lowry (S&T) 50 mil/2yrs

PHI IN: Lowry, Juancho, 2023 MIN FRP
PHI OUT: Simmons

BRO IN: Beasley, Okogie
BRO OUT: Joe Harris

Why for MIN: get elite defender, surround Simmons with 4 shooters
Why for PHI: get veteran PG for another run in playoffs
Why for TOR: get temporar solution at PG with Rubio, get assets
Why for BRO: reset situation after Harris playoff dissappointment

Then sign Torrey Craig, Khem Birch

KAT/Reid/Birch
Simmons/Craig/Vando
Harris/McDaniels/Layman
Edwards/Nowell/Bolmaro
Russell/McLaughlin/Bolmaro

No interest from Toronto for this; we need a center and not an overpaid backup PG in rubio. Value is not bad but wrong direction for us.
Would you consider adding Reid instead of 2025 FRP?

[Slim Tubby]

MIN IN: Simmons, Joe Harris
MIN OUT: Rubio, Beasley, Culver, Okogie, Juancho, 2023, 2025 first round picks

TOR IN: Rubio, Culver, 2025 MIN FRP
TOR OUT: Lowry (S&T) 50 mil/2yrs

PHI IN: Lowry, Juancho, 2023 MIN FRP
PHI OUT: Simmons

BRO IN: Beasley, Okogie
BRO OUT: Joe Harris

Why for MIN: get elite defender, surround Simmons with 4 shooters
Why for PHI: get veteran PG for another run in playoffs
Why for TOR: get temporary solution at PG with Rubio, get assets
Why for BRO: reset situation after Harris playoff disappointment

Then sign Torrey Craig, Khem Birch

KAT/Reid/Birch
Simmons/Craig/Vando
Harris/McDaniels/Layman
Edwards/Nowell/Bolmaro
Russell/McLaughlin/Bolmaro

No interest from Toronto for this; we need a center and not an overpaid backup PG in rubio. Value is not bad but wrong direction for us.
Would you consider adding Reid instead of 2025 FRP?

Reid is going to be overvalued by the Wolves when you factor in his contract and improved offense, especially his 3-point shooting this past season. Unless Rosas/Finch believes that Vanderbilt can continue to improve and can play 15-20 minutes per game at C, trading Naz is quite difficult to do. I agree with you on Rubio for TOR. He's a fairly large Expiring and has some skill/value left in him but he doesn't fit for the Raptors if FVV can tote the lumber at PG for you guys.

[Baseline81]

I think people are under a misconception that the only path to being a good team is a gradual process that involves being an average team first. That may be true for a free agent destination like the Knicks, but we have just seen a team go from awful to great .. since Covid! The Suns were a horrible team full of very young players until a surprising run in the bubble, and in one season they are legitimate contenders for a ring. Things can change that fast, and that should be our blueprint as well.

Let’s look at the four ways to improve our team, and compare it to stopping at mediocre.

Free agency. Going from bad to mediocre helps, but we won’t draw top free agents whether we are bad or mediocre. Net zero.
Trade. No effect. Any player can be traded, and while top ones may have preferences like FA’s, being mediocre isn’t enough.
Draft. Negative effect. Mediocre teams get worse picks in the draft.
Internal growth. Young players have more room for growth than vets.

I don’t disagree that being mediocre would be a step up for the Wolves historically. But remember, even with our current issues, we ended the season at 11-11 .. almost the definition of “mediocre.” I have enough optimism to prefer to aim higher than “mediocre.”

You've stated you don't want to become a treadmill team, however, one can argue the current roster, when healthy, already is -- as you pointed out with Minnesota's .500 ball in the remaining 22 games. Extrapolating that for the past season, the team would have finished 10th in the Western Conference.

What I'm trying to say is the "gradual process" has already taken place. It was only hidden by injuries, COVID and suspension.

[Neeva]

MIN IN: Simmons, Joe Harris
MIN OUT: Rubio, Beasley, Culver, Okogie, Juancho, 2023, 2025 first round picks

TOR IN: Rubio, Culver, 2025 MIN FRP
TOR OUT: Lowry (S&T) 50 mil/2yrs

PHI IN: Lowry, Juancho, 2023 MIN FRP
PHI OUT: Simmons

BRO IN: Beasley, Okogie
BRO OUT: Joe Harris

Why for MIN: get elite defender, surround Simmons with 4 shooters
Why for PHI: get veteran PG for another run in playoffs
Why for TOR: get temporar solution at PG with Rubio, get assets
Why for BRO: reset situation after Harris playoff dissappointment

Then sign Torrey Craig, Khem Birch

KAT/Reid/Birch
Simmons/Craig/Vando
Harris/McDaniels/Layman
Edwards/Nowell/Bolmaro
Russell/McLaughlin/Bolmaro

You overvalue Harris he just showed he is not worth his contract and is basically useless when he does not shoot well. Pretty sure Brooklyn regrets giving Harris that contract.

[SO_MONEY]

MIN IN: Simmons, Joe Harris
MIN OUT: Rubio, Beasley, Culver, Okogie, Juancho, 2023, 2025 first round picks

TOR IN: Rubio, Culver, 2025 MIN FRP
TOR OUT: Lowry (S&T) 50 mil/2yrs

PHI IN: Lowry, Juancho, 2023 MIN FRP
PHI OUT: Simmons

BRO IN: Beasley, Okogie
BRO OUT: Joe Harris

Why for MIN: get elite defender, surround Simmons with 4 shooters
Why for PHI: get veteran PG for another run in playoffs
Why for TOR: get temporar solution at PG with Rubio, get assets
Why for BRO: reset situation after Harris playoff dissappointment

Then sign Torrey Craig, Khem Birch

KAT/Reid/Birch
Simmons/Craig/Vando
Harris/McDaniels/Layman
Edwards/Nowell/Bolmaro
Russell/McLaughlin/Bolmaro

Ouch. Gross.

[Wolveswin]

If I were Wolves, I would entertain Edwards for Simmons++. I would need my coaches to tell me their scheme and strategy. How would Simmons be better in MN than Philadelphia?

I would also talk to his buddies Towns and Russell. How happy would they be? Would they put their names on the line what the bro-trio can become. And this part shouldn’t be belittled, it would almost guarantee a Towns re-sign in 3 offseason and in 2 offseasons, Russell re-sign for less to much less than his current max.

Simmons
Thybulle
Maxey or Milton
#28

That is a nice package for Edwards + Rubio + Filler.

Towns
Simmons
Thybulle
Beasley
Russell

Or

Towns
Simmons
McDaniels or Hernangomez
Thybulle
Russell
Beasley as super scoring 6th.

A whole lot would need to check out before I signed off on the deal.