OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[Dresden]

The WSJ is just one of hundreds of outlets that this story has been reported by..... Rupert Murdoch doesn't own all these. I mean this is getting to point of looking up and saying the sky is yellow and the sun is blue territory. There is just so much evidence pointing to the origin of the virus. Biden has finally called for an investigation after stopping the ones that were already going on.. nearly every scientific mind out there without bias is saying... "hey, on second thought, it sure looks like this is what happened"..

Like Duck just said. People need to stop politicizing this and just realize and speak the truth.



Murdoch doesn't own these...

https://www.livescience.com/covid-lab-leak-wuhan.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-medical-records-wuhan-lab-staff-sick-in-2019-2021-6

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210524/wuhan-lab-researchers-illness

To my knowledge, it's not true at all that "every scientific mind out there without bias is saying..."it sure looks like this is what happened" (meaning it came from a lab). I think that idea is being re-evaluated, but there still is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate that theory. As for the sick workers at Wuhan, the lead scientist from that lab recently gave a news conference and denied this, asking reporters to please tell her the names of the supposedly sick employees, and no one could.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/world/asia/china-covid-wuhan-lab-leak.html

Just try using common sense. The lead scientist at that lab is shady as far as I'm concerned She has been warned and chastised by many in the scientific community for her risky behavior. Of course she is going to deny this when she was the one in charge. I wouldn't believe anything that Shi Zhengli says. For years she has conducted risky experiments despite being warned by scientists around the World. Not to mention China as a country and their government is untrustworthy and as the Times put it "their habitual secrecy make her claims hard to validate". Ask yourself this... Why won't China allow an investigation into the lab? Why are they being so secretive? What are they hiding? Many are asking these questions today and not just right wing wackos. People from every political party and scientists everywhere are starting to change their tune about it.

By the way, the New York Times isn't exactly a conservative paper, quite the contrary.

I think you are mischaracterizing the scientist. I read that article, too. She has not been warned about anything, nor chastized by other scientists. She has carried out experiments that some have questioned as to whether or not the possible gains outweigh the risks, but so have many others, including the Dr. Baric from North Carolina, who was quoted in the article, and who has also carried out gain of function experiments on coronaviruses at an NIH lab. And Dr. Shi argues that her experiments were not in fact gain of function, because she was not attempting to create a more lethal virus strain.

One of the other experts on viruses mentioned in the article, a Dr. Gallo, director of a research institute in MD, is quoted as saying that “She’s a stellar scientist — extremely careful, with a rigorous work ethic,”.

So is this just a witch hunt? Is she being persecuted because of the secrecy policies of her govt? We don't know, but I see no reason to assume the worst about her until there is more proof. Any proof, actually.

This effort to pin the pandemic on China's malfeasance just smells too much like Saddam and his purported WMD's all over again. The yellow cake, the bioweapons labs, the chemical munitions factories, etc., all the claims that proved to be false, but that cost half a million people their lives. The American public is always too eager to believe the worst about our perceived enemies.

We already know our govt has lied about this. Mike Pompeo came out last summer with the claim that US intelligence sources had "enormous evidence" that the virus escaped from a Chinese lab. I assume Biden would have access to that intelligence now. If so, why isn't he sharing that with the international community? Why is he requesting a new investigation, when we already had such "enormous evidence" about the lab leak theory in our possession? Because we don't any such evidence, obviously. So I can see why China would bristle at such claims, when our govt. officials shoot their mouths off like that without any definitive proof whatsover.

[jnrjr79]

To my knowledge, it's not true at all that "every scientific mind out there without bias is saying..."it sure looks like this is what happened" (meaning it came from a lab). I think that idea is being re-evaluated, but there still is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate that theory. As for the sick workers at Wuhan, the lead scientist from that lab recently gave a news conference and denied this, asking reporters to please tell her the names of the supposedly sick employees, and no one could.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/world/asia/china-covid-wuhan-lab-leak.html

Just try using common sense. The lead scientist at that lab is shady as far as I'm concerned She has been warned and chastised by many in the scientific community for her risky behavior. Of course she is going to deny this when she was the one in charge. I wouldn't believe anything that Shi Zhengli says. For years she has conducted risky experiments despite being warned by scientists around the World. Not to mention China as a country and their government is untrustworthy and as the Times put it "their habitual secrecy make her claims hard to validate". Ask yourself this... Why won't China allow an investigation into the lab? Why are they being so secretive? What are they hiding? Many are asking these questions today and not just right wing wackos. People from every political party and scientists everywhere are starting to change their tune about it.

By the way, the New York Times isn't exactly a conservative paper, quite the contrary.

This effort to pin the pandemic on China's malfeasance just smells too much like Saddam and his purported WMD's all over again. The yellow cake, the bioweapons labs, the chemical munitions factories, etc., all the claims that proved to be false, but that cost half a million people their lives. The American public is always too eager to believe the worst about our perceived enemies.

You're right. We should trust the regime throwing Muslims in concentration camps in Xinjiang and imprisoning advocates for democracy in Hong Kong.

[Dresden]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/world/asia/china-covid-wuhan-lab-leak.html

Just try using common sense. The lead scientist at that lab is shady as far as I'm concerned She has been warned and chastised by many in the scientific community for her risky behavior. Of course she is going to deny this when she was the one in charge. I wouldn't believe anything that Shi Zhengli says. For years she has conducted risky experiments despite being warned by scientists around the World. Not to mention China as a country and their government is untrustworthy and as the Times put it "their habitual secrecy make her claims hard to validate". Ask yourself this... Why won't China allow an investigation into the lab? Why are they being so secretive? What are they hiding? Many are asking these questions today and not just right wing wackos. People from every political party and scientists everywhere are starting to change their tune about it.

By the way, the New York Times isn't exactly a conservative paper, quite the contrary.

This effort to pin the pandemic on China's malfeasance just smells too much like Saddam and his purported WMD's all over again. The yellow cake, the bioweapons labs, the chemical munitions factories, etc., all the claims that proved to be false, but that cost half a million people their lives. The American public is always too eager to believe the worst about our perceived enemies.

You're right. We should trust the regime throwing Muslims in concentration camps in Xinjiang and imprisoning advocates for democracy in Hong Kong.

I would say dont' trust either of them. Trust the scientists, the vast majority of whom are still saying the most likely scenario is a jump to humans occurring in the wild. And push for a full investigation, push for China to release it's lab data. They should be pressured to do so.

[jnrjr79]

This effort to pin the pandemic on China's malfeasance just smells too much like Saddam and his purported WMD's all over again. The yellow cake, the bioweapons labs, the chemical munitions factories, etc., all the claims that proved to be false, but that cost half a million people their lives. The American public is always too eager to believe the worst about our perceived enemies.

You're right. We should trust the regime throwing Muslims in concentration camps in Xinjiang and imprisoning advocates for democracy in Hong Kong.

I would say dont' trust either of them. Trust the scientists, the vast majority of whom are still saying the most likely scenario is a jump to humans occurring in the wild. And push for a full investigation, push for China to release it's lab data. They should be pressured to do so.

FWIW, I don't think it's accurate any longer to say "the vast majority" of scientists currently prefer the natural origin theory. That theory is predicated on the existence of an intermediate animal host, and none has been found. But to your point, the lab leak theory also lacks direct evidence. The whole thing is a mystery that may never be solved - and IMO it probably never will be due to obstruction by the CCP. It's increasingly clear, though, that the natural origin theory was pushed by the science community for, in part, political reasons.

[2018C3]

After reading documentation and scientific articles early on. I was never a huge proponent of the shutdowns and Mask theory. A year later I'm vaccinated, and still find myself putting on a mask when I enter stores.

Some may ask me why? The reason is I'm not 100% sure of my own beliefs, or any of the information out there. I also understand others may strongly hold different opinions from my own.

If not wearing a mask could potentially make others around me uncomfortable, I personally do not want to that.

For me the whole mask thing was just a minor inconvenience. It was easy to put on, and I thought to myself why would I want to cause others around me any emotional discomfort? Especially when it could be so easily avoided.

I purchased one pack of them early on, and washed and reused them over and over again for the entire last year.

[Dresden]

You're right. We should trust the regime throwing Muslims in concentration camps in Xinjiang and imprisoning advocates for democracy in Hong Kong.

I would say dont' trust either of them. Trust the scientists, the vast majority of whom are still saying the most likely scenario is a jump to humans occurring in the wild. And push for a full investigation, push for China to release it's lab data. They should be pressured to do so.

FWIW, I don't think it's accurate any longer to say "the vast majority" of scientists currently prefer the natural origin theory. That theory is predicated on the existence of an intermediate animal host, and none has been found. But to your point, the lab leak theory also lacks direct evidence. The whole thing is a mystery that may never be solved - and IMO it probably never will be due to obstruction by the CCP. It's increasingly clear, though, that the natural origin theory was pushed by the science community for, in part, political reasons.

I have yet to read comments from a virologist who says it's more likely it originated in a lab than in the wild. There was a fellow early on, but he has since retracted his comments, based on further research that's been done on the genome of the virus. So yes, I think it is accurate to say right now, the prevalent belief out there among virologists and public health officials is that this was a case of a virus making the jump to humans in the wild.

As for the intermediary species, it's true that one hasn't been found yet. But I posted a link a page or two back in this thread by researches who have discovered that these types of viruses are capable of jumping directly to humans, without an intermediary.

[2018C3]

As always, its best to wait before coming to any conclusions. I also lean towards the lab leak theory. Am I sure of it, Nope! But I do think its a possibility.

My definitive opinion has not yet been formed. I think in the near future scientists will have a better idea of its origins then they have today. I'm willing to wait for those results.

I'm indifferent, and don't really care how it started either way. My only interest in finding the source, is in what can be done to prevent another outbreak like this in the future. If it was a lab leak, additional measures need to be taken in the future to monitor research that may lead to another outbreak.

[dougthonus]

As always, its best to wait before coming to any conclusions. I also lean towards the lab leak theory. Am I sure of it, Nope! But I do think its a possibility.

My definitive opinion has not yet been formed. I think in the near future scientists will have a better idea of its origins then they have today. I'm willing to wait for those results.

I'm indifferent, and don't really care how it started either way. My only interest in finding the source, is in what can be done to prevent another outbreak like this in the future. If it was a lab leak, additional measures need to be taken in the future to monitor research that may lead to another outbreak.

This is mostly where I'm at.

I'm sure China wants to ensure it is not a lab leak and block any such type of information from coming to light if it were one. If it is a lab leak the fact they tried to cover it up, couldn't contain this and caused a global pandemic means that they might be asked by the world at large to be on the hook for a lot of stuff.

[Dresden]

As always, its best to wait before coming to any conclusions. I also lean towards the lab leak theory. Am I sure of it, Nope! But I do think its a possibility.

My definitive opinion has not yet been formed. I think in the near future scientists will have a better idea of its origins then they have today. I'm willing to wait for those results.

I'm indifferent, and don't really care how it started either way. My only interest in finding the source, is in what can be done to prevent another outbreak like this in the future. If it was a lab leak, additional measures need to be taken in the future to monitor research that may lead to another outbreak.

This is mostly where I'm at.

I'm sure China wants to ensure it is not a lab leak and block any such type of information from coming to light if it were one. If it is a lab leak the fact they tried to cover it up, couldn't contain this and caused a global pandemic means that they might be asked by the world at large to be on the hook for a lot of stuff.

Trump was suggesting this last summer I believe. Hard to see that ever happening though, even it was proven that it came from a lab. I may be wrong, but I don't recall Russia ever having to pay any kind of damages for Chernobyl. Of course this was a million times worse. But it's very hard to enforce things like that- putting sanctions on China is not going to work, since they are so tightly tied into our economy. The US has never been forced to pay anything for it's invasion of Iraq, although in fact we have put a lot of money back into their country. Ditto our spraying of Agent Orange in Vietnam, which lead to thousands of cases of cancer and birth defects. I can't imagine any way that you could ever force China to pay up, even if some kind of international court gave you a judgement against them.

[dougthonus]

Trump was suggesting this last summer I believe. Hard to see that ever happening though, even it was proven that it came from a lab. I may be wrong, but I don't recall Russia ever having to pay any kind of damages for Chernobyl. Of course this was a million times worse. But it's very hard to enforce things like that- putting sanctions on China is not going to work, since they are so tightly tied into our economy. The US has never been forced to pay anything for it's invasion of Iraq, although in fact we have put a lot of money back into their country. Ditto our spraying of Agent Orange in Vietnam, which lead to thousands of cases of cancer and birth defects. I can't imagine any way that you could ever force China to pay up, even if some kind of international court gave you a judgement against them.

It would generally be if the world just pressured them into it. Seems pretty unlikely that anyone would go to war over it or anything. I agree, good chance they wouldn't bow to such pressure. I don't think this is anything like Agent Orange during acts of war or going into IRAQ searching for WMDs. If this were true, then they killed millions and also withheld information that could have prevented that by allowing everyone to get ahead of this.

[Dresden]

Trump was suggesting this last summer I believe. Hard to see that ever happening though, even it was proven that it came from a lab. I may be wrong, but I don't recall Russia ever having to pay any kind of damages for Chernobyl. Of course this was a million times worse. But it's very hard to enforce things like that- putting sanctions on China is not going to work, since they are so tightly tied into our economy. The US has never been forced to pay anything for it's invasion of Iraq, although in fact we have put a lot of money back into their country. Ditto our spraying of Agent Orange in Vietnam, which lead to thousands of cases of cancer and birth defects. I can't imagine any way that you could ever force China to pay up, even if some kind of international court gave you a judgement against them.

It would generally be if the world just pressured them into it. Seems pretty unlikely that anyone would go to war over it or anything. I agree, good chance they wouldn't bow to such pressure. I don't think this is anything like Agent Orange during acts of war or going into IRAQ searching for WMDs. If this were true, then they killed millions and also withheld information that could have prevented that by allowing everyone to get ahead of this.

That was the point I was trying to make, maybe not very well, - in terms of holding countries financially liable for damages they have inflicted upon other countries, where do you draw the line? If the world tried to hold China accountable for this, it would open up all sorts of claims. So I don't know how you would ever do that. I would imagine the cost of Covid would be astronomical, too- in the 10's of trillions of dollars or something like that, if you figured the loss of life, the pain and suffering, and the economic damages.

I think the biggest loss China would face is the loss of prestige and trust, and the judgement of history.

[jnrjr79]

Trump was suggesting this last summer I believe. Hard to see that ever happening though, even it was proven that it came from a lab. I may be wrong, but I don't recall Russia ever having to pay any kind of damages for Chernobyl. Of course this was a million times worse. But it's very hard to enforce things like that- putting sanctions on China is not going to work, since they are so tightly tied into our economy. The US has never been forced to pay anything for it's invasion of Iraq, although in fact we have put a lot of money back into their country. Ditto our spraying of Agent Orange in Vietnam, which lead to thousands of cases of cancer and birth defects. I can't imagine any way that you could ever force China to pay up, even if some kind of international court gave you a judgement against them.

It would generally be if the world just pressured them into it. Seems pretty unlikely that anyone would go to war over it or anything. I agree, good chance they wouldn't bow to such pressure. I don't think this is anything like Agent Orange during acts of war or going into IRAQ searching for WMDs. If this were true, then they killed millions and also withheld information that could have prevented that by allowing everyone to get ahead of this.

That was the point I was trying to make, maybe not very well, - in terms of holding countries financially liable for damages they have inflicted upon other countries, where do you draw the line? If the world tried to hold China accountable for this, it would open up all sorts of claims. So I don't know how you would ever do that. I would imagine the cost of Covid would be astronomical, too- in the 10's of trillions of dollars or something like that, if you figured the loss of life, the pain and suffering, and the economic damages.

I think the biggest loss China would face is the loss of prestige and trust, and the judgement of history.

I agree with this assessment, but would note the loss of prestige and trust would be a hugely important consideration for China, who is in the process of trying to up its standing and influence in the world dramatically.

One thing I think is going to hurt China irrespective of the COVID origin question is that they have developed and distributed throughout the world a very poor vaccine. The countries that have accepted them are still experiencing COVID in a very serious way.

[2018C3]

I would not be interested in forcing any countries to pay damages on the Covid origin.

What I'm interested most in is just new international laws guiding any new scientific studies when handling highly invective viruses.

As we have all seen in this last outbreak, things could spread globally quickly. As population and travel increases, every nation on this planet should be able to see a advantage in sharing this type of research with others in this type of scientific development. It would be good for all of us!

Were all stuck on what is now becoming a tiny little planet. One little thing that happens in the opposite corner of the world can now effect us all.

This should also hold true with further space travel. We live on a planet with limited resources, It would only make sense for each country to work together when exploring our boundaries.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The only thing separating us all as people on this planet, is regional governmental type body's who wish to hold on to power that they have gained.

If World War III broke out between politicians and nations tomorrow, I doubt very few people on earth would really want to participate. Most would only fight, because the local governments would force them to.

Either that or the local government leaders have used media brain washing tactics to spread un-informed hate.

[johnnyvann840]

This effort to pin the pandemic on China's malfeasance just smells too much like Saddam and his purported WMD's all over again. The yellow cake, the bioweapons labs, the chemical munitions factories, etc., all the claims that proved to be false, but that cost half a million people their lives. The American public is always too eager to believe the worst about our perceived enemies.

You're right. We should trust the regime throwing Muslims in concentration camps in Xinjiang and imprisoning advocates for democracy in Hong Kong.

I would say dont' trust either of them. Trust the scientists, the vast majority of whom are still saying the most likely scenario is a jump to humans occurring in the wild. And push for a full investigation, push for China to release it's lab data. They should be pressured to do so.

Well, here is some VERY VERY strong evidence that this virus came from a lab. I agree, trust the scientists. But, trust the ones who have nothing to gain or lose with their opinions and research. Just the fact that Shi Zhengli and her colleagues failed to include this important sequence that appears in Cov-2 in their published works is quite damning indeed. I'm 100% convinced that it came from the Wuhan lab. All of the incredible coincidental facts like where the virus was first discovered along with the type of research that the lab had been conducting alone is almost enough, but when you combine it with the facts below, I really don't see how it can be debated any longer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184

Although the double CGG is suppressed naturally, the opposite is true in laboratory work. The insertion sequence of choice is the double CGG. That’s because it is readily available and convenient, and scientists have a great deal of experience inserting it. An additional advantage of the double CGG sequence compared with the other 35 possible choices: It creates a useful beacon that permits the scientists to track the insertion in the laboratory.

Now the damning fact. It was this exact sequence that appears in CoV-2. Proponents of zoonotic origin must explain why the novel coronavirus, when it mutated or recombined, happened to pick its least favorite combination, the double CGG. Why did it replicate the choice the lab’s gain-of-function researchers would have made?

Yes, it could have happened randomly, through mutations. But do you believe that? At the minimum, this fact—that the coronavirus, with all its random possibilities, took the rare and unnatural combination used by human researchers—implies that the leading theory for the origin of the coronavirus must be laboratory escape.

When the lab’s Shi Zhengli and colleagues published a paper in February 2020 with the virus’s partial genome, they omitted any mention of the special sequence that supercharges the virus or the rare double CGG section. Yet the fingerprint is easily identified in the data that accompanied the paper. Was it omitted in the hope that nobody would notice this evidence of the gain-of-function origin?

But in a matter of weeks virologists Bruno Coutard and colleagues published their discovery of the sequence in CoV-2 and its novel supercharged site. Double CGG is there; you only have to look. They comment in their paper that the protein that held it “may provide a gain-of-function” capability to the virus, “for efficient spreading” to humans.

There is additional scientific evidence that points to CoV-2’s gain-of-function origin. The most compelling is the dramatic differences in the genetic diversity of CoV-2, compared with the coronaviruses responsible for SARS and MERS.

Both of those were confirmed to have a natural origin; the viruses evolved rapidly as they spread through the human population, until the most contagious forms dominated. Covid-19 didn’t work that way. It appeared in humans already adapted into an extremely contagious version. No serious viral “improvement” took place until a minor variation occurred many months later in England.

Such early optimization is unprecedented, and it suggests a long period of adaptation that predated its public spread. Science knows of only one way that could be achieved: simulated natural evolution, growing the virus on human cells until the optimum is achieved. That is precisely what is done in gain-of-function research. Mice that are genetically modified to have the same coronavirus receptor as humans, called “humanized mice,” are repeatedly exposed to the virus to encourage adaptation.

The presence of the double CGG sequence is strong evidence of gene splicing, and the absence of diversity in the public outbreak suggests gain-of-function acceleration. The scientific evidence points to the conclusion that the virus was developed in a laboratory.

Dr. Quay is founder of Atossa Therapeutics and author of “Stay Safe: A Physician’s Guide to Survive Coronavirus.” Mr. Muller is an emeritus professor of physics at the University of California Berkeley and a former senior scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

And there's much more in this extensive piece from Vanity Fair... long but extremely informative and thoroughly researched article full of eye opening facts. Really uncovers just how deceptive and disingenuous Shi Zhengli really has been from the beginning. Also, just how far the Chinese government is willing to go to keep the cover up intact. Must read.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins

[bulls_troy]

For those under 40 who have had the AstraZeneca vaccine, how you found it? Is there much of a chance of blood clots? Or other issues? It's now available for under 40's in South Australia

[dougthonus]

For those under 40 who have had the AstraZeneca vaccine, how you found it? Is there much of a chance of blood clots? Or other issues? It's now available for under 40's in South Australia

I didn't have that one, but quick research will show the odds of blood clots is exceptionally low. I think like 1 in millions low without looking it up. The odds of adverse effects that last longer than a couple days are more or less inconsequential regardless of which one you get, and there have been over 2 billion doses given out, which is way more than the standard sample size required to feel comfortable with side effects.

[Dresden]

You're right. We should trust the regime throwing Muslims in concentration camps in Xinjiang and imprisoning advocates for democracy in Hong Kong.

I would say dont' trust either of them. Trust the scientists, the vast majority of whom are still saying the most likely scenario is a jump to humans occurring in the wild. And push for a full investigation, push for China to release it's lab data. They should be pressured to do so.

Well, here is some VERY VERY strong evidence that this virus came from a lab. I agree, trust the scientists. But, trust the ones who have nothing to gain or lose with their opinions and research. Just the fact that Shi Zhengli and her colleagues failed to include this important sequence that appears in Cov-2 in their published works is quite damning indeed. I'm 100% convinced that it came from the Wuhan lab. All of the incredible coincidental facts like where the virus was first discovered along with the type of research that the lab had been conducting alone is almost enough, but when you combine it with the facts below, I really don't see how it can be debated any longer.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184

Although the double CGG is suppressed naturally, the opposite is true in laboratory work. The insertion sequence of choice is the double CGG. That’s because it is readily available and convenient, and scientists have a great deal of experience inserting it. An additional advantage of the double CGG sequence compared with the other 35 possible choices: It creates a useful beacon that permits the scientists to track the insertion in the laboratory.

Now the damning fact. It was this exact sequence that appears in CoV-2. Proponents of zoonotic origin must explain why the novel coronavirus, when it mutated or recombined, happened to pick its least favorite combination, the double CGG. Why did it replicate the choice the lab’s gain-of-function researchers would have made?

Yes, it could have happened randomly, through mutations. But do you believe that? At the minimum, this fact—that the
coronavirus, with all its random possibilities, took the rare and unnatural combination used by human researchers—implies that the leading theory for the origin of the coronavirus must be laboratory escape.

When the lab’s Shi Zhengli and colleagues published a paper in February 2020 with the virus’s partial genome, they omitted any mention of the special sequence that supercharges the virus or the rare double CGG section. Yet the fingerprint is easily identified in the data that accompanied the paper. Was it omitted in the hope that nobody would notice this evidence of the gain-of-function origin?

But in a matter of weeks virologists Bruno Coutard and colleagues published their discovery of the sequence in CoV-2 and its novel supercharged site. Double CGG is there; you only have to look. They comment in their paper that the protein that held it “may provide a gain-of-function” capability to the virus, “for efficient spreading” to humans.

There is additional scientific evidence that points to CoV-2’s gain-of-function origin. The most compelling is the dramatic differences in the genetic diversity of CoV-2, compared with the coronaviruses responsible for SARS and MERS.

Both of those were confirmed to have a natural origin; the viruses evolved rapidly as they spread through the human population, until the most contagious forms dominated. Covid-19 didn’t work that way. It appeared in humans already adapted into an extremely contagious version. No serious viral “improvement” took place until a minor variation occurred many months later in England.

Such early optimization is unprecedented, and it suggests a long period of adaptation that predated its public spread. Science knows of only one way that could be achieved: simulated natural evolution, growing the virus on human cells until the optimum is achieved. That is precisely what is done in gain-of-function research. Mice that are genetically modified to have the same coronavirus receptor as humans, called “humanized mice,” are repeatedly exposed to the virus to encourage adaptation.

The presence of the double CGG sequence is strong evidence of gene splicing, and the absence of diversity in the public outbreak suggests gain-of-function acceleration. The scientific evidence points to the conclusion that the virus was developed in a laboratory.

Dr. Quay is founder of Atossa Therapeutics and author of “Stay Safe: A Physician’s Guide to Survive Coronavirus.” Mr. Muller is an emeritus professor of physics at the University of California Berkeley and a former senior scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

And there's much more in this extensive piece from Vanity Fair... long but extremely informative and thoroughly researched article full of eye opening facts. Really uncovers just how deceptive and disingenuous Shi Zhengli really has been from the beginning. Also, just how far the Chinese government is willing to go to keep the cover up intact. Must read.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/the-lab-leak-theory-inside-the-fight-to-uncover-covid-19s-origins

This article went into a lot of depth about how the US govt. was more or less in war with itself over how much credibility to give to a lab escape hypothesis. Some wanted it dismissed in order to hide the fact that the US funded gain of function research in China as well as here in the US. It's interesting, but also leads to questions about which side is telling the truth.

The biggest question that would shed light on this whole thing is whether or not 3 workers from Wuhan did in fact get sick with COvid like symptoms in fall of 2019. The State dept. claims they have intelligence on this- others say the claim has not been proven. And Chinese spokespeople have said no one at the institute tested positive for Covid antibodies.

One nit picky thing I think the article got wrong is their claim that Wuhan and Shi were doing gain of function research. It is usually defined as manipulating an organism to increase it's lethality or contagiousness. But Shi claims that they never manipulated any coronaviruses in that way- they simple spliced some genetic material together to see how it affected the virus. Possibly a small distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

On the whole, the article doesn't present any new proof of a lab origin. It goes into a lot of circumstantial evidence, and pokes some holes in the credibility of Chinese authorities and researchers, but that's not the same as providing concrete evidence of a lab leak.

And while one prominent scientist is mentioned as supporting the lab leak hypothesis (David Baltimore), as well as Dr. Redfield, if you do "follow the scientists", what they are asking for (at least those mentioned in the article), is a more thorough investigation. They are not saying they are convinced it came from a lab. " “We needed to create a space where all of the hypotheses could be considered,” Metzl said." This is a far cry from scientific judgement falling heavily in favor the lab leak origins.

Hopefully the investigation will have access to the materials they need to arrive at the truth.

[bulls_troy]

Majority of Australia is back in lockdown because of this delta strain. Luckily my state (South Australia) avoided lockdown today despite 5 new cases. But they are still looking for some people who were on a flight with this person (the other 4 people are his wife and 2 of 3 kids) so we could still wind up in lockdown still

[moorhosj]

It's increasingly clear, though, that the natural origin theory was pushed by the science community for, in part, political reasons.

On the flip side, the lab leak theory was pushed by politicians for entirely political reasons.

[dougthonus]

It's increasingly clear, though, that the natural origin theory was pushed by the science community for, in part, political reasons.

On the flip side, the lab leak theory was pushed by politicians for entirely political reasons.

Well one of these theories is true. The lab leak theory has always felt more true to me than the natural origin theory, though I'm not sure it entirely matters. It just seem wildly coincidental that the virus origin point was shown to basically be a lab that experiments on these types of viruses. That said, coincidences in life do happen, so who knows.

Regardless, China has been very opaque about the whole thing and is clearly not doing its best to cooperate with the world in terms of this type of information which isn't surprising given their normal behavior.