3 Weeks til the Lottery.

[JonFromVA]

We lost Drummond when we traded for Allen. That was his heads up that he wasn't going to get his big deal from the Cavs, then sent him home. Hartenstein was a bright spot for the season, but it cost us McGee. We had a somewhat interesting second unit with Sexton-Windler-Osman-Wade-McGee for all of 22 minutes, and Sexton-Exum-Osman-Nance-McGee for all of 12.

Continuity is important.

That we were able to incorporate Allen and Hartenstein as well as we did is a testament to their low-maintenance style, but once we started churning G-League players in to key positions of the team, most of this past season became a tosser.

It's not just that none of our starting units played more than 137 minutes together this season, it's also about that none of them played at all before January 15th in a season with only a few practice sessions.

At a certain point, if you're relying on guys like Love and Exum to stay healthy, it's a shame on you situation. But McGee played all season until the trade deadline and outside of two games, one of which was against the Bulls who were without LaVine, I didn't see any improvement when Love came back.

Continuity is important but again, I don't think that's the biggest issue. You can't be as bad as the Cavs were at defending the three and converting three point attempts and win.

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You can go on and on about 3-point defense, which is highly variable and not terribly reliable as a stat from year to year and is the consequence of a lot of things, including coaching. The Knicks went from 28th to 1st, probably thanks to Thibodeau's coaching more than anything.

So I'm very much of the opinion that the Cavs can turn around their D with coaching. But the team was regularly taking 10+ bad threes a game, just by letting Cedi/Dotson/Okoro shoot it this year.

Here's the list of PGs, SGs, and SFs that shot above 35% from 3 this year: Sexton, Garland, Prince, Quinn Cook. (Throw in Love, Nance, and Wade in this category if we're counting PFs.)
Here's the list of PGs, SGs, and SFs that shot below 35% from 3 this year: Cedi (5.5 shots at 31%), Dotson (3.5 at 29%), Okoro (3.2 at 29%), Windler, Delly, Exum, Martin.

You can't shoot 10 shots a game expecting to make 30%, but the Cavs did it all year long.

Cedi and Windler were shooting reasonably well to start the year; Windler's shot dropped off terribly right before he had surgery, so I take back criticizing him too much earlier, his numbers faltered because he was hurt. Can't see anything that might've affected Cedi, but after an average December/January he fell off badly in February onward. Dotson was a 36% shooter the previous two seasons, so he fell off this year as badly as Cedi (but he started badly, finishing back at his 36% number in April).

So maybe the Cavs get better just by Cedi and Windler getting over their down 2021 year. Maybe we bring Dotson back and his shot returns.

Or maybe it's about not having a coherent plan on offense or defense, which is as much or more on the coaching staff than any of the players. Thibs turned the Knicks from 28th in 3 point defense last year to #1 in the league this year with similar personnel.

Yep ... all Mike Brown ever needed were players willing to give some effort and time for them to learn his defensive system.

As for Cedi, I think he was just trying to do more than we've seen him try in the past - be the guy he is for Team Turkey. A guy like him only gets so many chances to cross the line from role player to star in the NBA, and I can't blame him for trying. If he can be walked back to a more conservative play style in a bench role, he should be fine.

[jbk1234]

I don't see the Cavs trading Okoro, unless they bring someone new in to make decisions and he just hates everything Altman did in the past and believes Okoro has zero offensive upside. Otherwise, I think he's exactly the kind of player a rebuilding team should be investing in, in hopes that he eventually pays off somewhere down the line when his game is fleshed out.

But of course it depends who was on the table.

I might trade a young Jimmy Butler for a young Bradley Beal, but it's not all that hard to add shooting. Morey quickly added Seth Curry, Danny Green, and George Hill to shore up the Sixer's shooting. He didn't ask his one and done draft pick (Tyrese Maxey) to step-in and fix it. He didn't decide he loved Thybulle's defense and that they could live with his 30% 3pt shooting. He didn't even have to trade either of those young players that he didn't intend to start.

Instead Curry and Green stepped in to the starting lineup leaving Simmons the youngest starter at 24.

Sure...Them trading the pick is also an option if they are not happy with whoever is there at 8 or wherever the pick would have to be to force the hand.

I don't see them trading Okoro because I don't think he has decent trade value. They're better of keeping him and hoping he makes a jump in his second year.

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[Stillwater]

I don't see the Cavs trading Okoro, unless they bring someone new in to make decisions and he just hates everything Altman did in the past and believes Okoro has zero offensive upside. Otherwise, I think he's exactly the kind of player a rebuilding team should be investing in, in hopes that he eventually pays off somewhere down the line when his game is fleshed out.

But of course it depends who was on the table.

I might trade a young Jimmy Butler for a young Bradley Beal, but it's not all that hard to add shooting. Morey quickly added Seth Curry, Danny Green, and George Hill to shore up the Sixer's shooting. He didn't ask his one and done draft pick (Tyrese Maxey) to step-in and fix it. He didn't decide he loved Thybulle's defense and that they could live with his 30% 3pt shooting. He didn't even have to trade either of those young players that he didn't intend to start.

Instead Curry and Green stepped in to the starting lineup leaving Simmons the youngest starter at 24.

Sure...Them trading the pick is also an option if they are not happy with whoever is there at 8 or wherever the pick would have to be to force the hand.

I don't see them trading Okoro because I don't think he has decent trade value. They're better of keeping him and hoping he makes a jump in his second year.

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I think it all depends on the draft who if anybody on this roster gets shopped. Probably wont actually make any trades of Okoro or Sexton or DG but nothing is out of the question if a new GM is in the front office imo.
I guess if Altman is not out of job they will just continue to process

[jbk1234]

Sure...Them trading the pick is also an option if they are not happy with whoever is there at 8 or wherever the pick would have to be to force the hand.

I don't see them trading Okoro because I don't think he has decent trade value. They're better of keeping him and hoping he makes a jump in his second year.

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I think it all depends on the draft who if anybody on this roster gets shopped. Probably wont actually make any trades of Okoro or Sexton or DG but nothing is out of the question if a new GM is in the front office imo.
I guess if Altman is not out of job they will just continue to process

I think Okoro needs to improve his three point percentage significantly to have good trade value. If he does, the Cavs won't move him. If he doesn't, he's a cost controlled slasher/defensive specialist who returns a lat first from a contender. The return isn't worth giving up the chance to see if he can improve as a shooter.

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[JonFromVA]

I don't see them trading Okoro because I don't think he has decent trade value. They're better of keeping him and hoping he makes a jump in his second year.

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I think it all depends on the draft who if anybody on this roster gets shopped. Probably wont actually make any trades of Okoro or Sexton or DG but nothing is out of the question if a new GM is in the front office imo.
I guess if Altman is not out of job they will just continue to process

I think Okoro needs to improve his three point percentage significantly to have good trade value. If he does, the Cavs won't move him. If he doesn't, he's a cost controlled slasher/defensive specialist who returns a lat first from a contender. The return isn't worth giving up the chance to see if he can improve as a shooter

I imagine there are still some other GM's around the league who would be willing to take a chance on Okoro's shot coming around and his potential as a two way player; but he's not going to get us the 5th pick in this draft even though he went 5th last year and now has another year of experience. Just not how it works, not even when we were trading Kyrie.

The disparity in his 3pt% and TS% (while down some) remains quite huge in both home .vs. road and wins .vs. losses splits. There's certainly reason to believe his shooting will come around. It's certainly no easy task trying to defend the best players in the league and still have enough spring left to knock down 3's.

[jbk1234]

I think it all depends on the draft who if anybody on this roster gets shopped. Probably wont actually make any trades of Okoro or Sexton or DG but nothing is out of the question if a new GM is in the front office imo.
I guess if Altman is not out of job they will just continue to process

I think Okoro needs to improve his three point percentage significantly to have good trade value. If he does, the Cavs won't move him. If he doesn't, he's a cost controlled slasher/defensive specialist who returns a lat first from a contender. The return isn't worth giving up the chance to see if he can improve as a shooter

I imagine there are still some other GM's around the league who would be willing to take a chance on Okoro's shot coming around and his potential as a two way player; but he's not going to get us the 5th pick in this draft even though he went 5th last year and now has another year of experience. Just not how it works, not even when we were trading Kyrie.

The disparity in his 3pt% and TS% (while down some) remains quite huge in both home .vs. road and wins .vs. losses splits. There's certainly reason to believe his shooting will come around. It's certainly no easy task trying to defend the best players in the league and still have enough spring left to knock down 3's.

I don't think you'll get pick before 20 in this draft for Okoro. The Cavs drafted him for ceiling. They knew his jump shot was a work in progress when they took him. His high end projection was as a Butler/Leonard type and those guys took years to develop a reliable jumper (some people say Jimmy never really got there). You trade him for a late first, after a single season, and he does make huge jump in years two and three, not only do you get fired, you never work in the NBA again.

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[JonFromVA]

I think Okoro needs to improve his three point percentage significantly to have good trade value. If he does, the Cavs won't move him. If he doesn't, he's a cost controlled slasher/defensive specialist who returns a lat first from a contender. The return isn't worth giving up the chance to see if he can improve as a shooter

I imagine there are still some other GM's around the league who would be willing to take a chance on Okoro's shot coming around and his potential as a two way player; but he's not going to get us the 5th pick in this draft even though he went 5th last year and now has another year of experience. Just not how it works, not even when we were trading Kyrie.

The disparity in his 3pt% and TS% (while down some) remains quite huge in both home .vs. road and wins .vs. losses splits. There's certainly reason to believe his shooting will come around. It's certainly no easy task trying to defend the best players in the league and still have enough spring left to knock down 3's.

I don't think you'll get pick before 20 in this draft for Okoro. The Cavs drafted him for ceiling. They knew his jump shot was a work in progress when they took him. His high end projection was as a Butler/Leonard type and those guys took years to develop a reliable jumper (some people say Jimmy never really got there). You trade him for a late first, after a single season, and he does make huge jump in years two and three, not only do you get fired, you never work in the NBA again.

Oh, I don't think it would be hard at all to get a top-20 pick for Isaac ... he's playable right now in a defensive bench role and has a ton of upside. Teams that aren't looking for a savior or someone to sell tickets would welcome that.

I just think (as usual) we need to be very patient and not start churning players when they don't break out immediately.

[Stillwater]

I imagine there are still some other GM's around the league who would be willing to take a chance on Okoro's shot coming around and his potential as a two way player; but he's not going to get us the 5th pick in this draft even though he went 5th last year and now has another year of experience. Just not how it works, not even when we were trading Kyrie.

The disparity in his 3pt% and TS% (while down some) remains quite huge in both home .vs. road and wins .vs. losses splits. There's certainly reason to believe his shooting will come around. It's certainly no easy task trying to defend the best players in the league and still have enough spring left to knock down 3's.

I don't think you'll get pick before 20 in this draft for Okoro. The Cavs drafted him for ceiling. They knew his jump shot was a work in progress when they took him. His high end projection was as a Butler/Leonard type and those guys took years to develop a reliable jumper (some people say Jimmy never really got there). You trade him for a late first, after a single season, and he does make huge jump in years two and three, not only do you get fired, you never work in the NBA again.

Oh, I don't think it would be hard at all to get a top-20 pick for Isaac ... he's playable right now in a defensive bench role and has a ton of upside. Teams that aren't looking for a savior or someone to sell tickets would welcome that.

I just think (as usual) we need to be very patient and not start churning players when they don't break out immediately.

I agree they should not move any of the core just to move them...but his potential as a 2 way player is just as good if not better than most wings at the same age and that alone makes him worth at least a late lottery pick in this top heavy draft. The Cavs flashed his potential on ball late in the season and I don't want them to trade him but that flash is a accidental marketing strategy to move him even if they don't plan to or want to have the opportunity to teams are calling imo.
Teams see what he can do as an on ball forward making plays and scoring and they will give up value even without him improving his pull up game or lack of one.

[jbk1234]

I don't think you'll get pick before 20 in this draft for Okoro. The Cavs drafted him for ceiling. They knew his jump shot was a work in progress when they took him. His high end projection was as a Butler/Leonard type and those guys took years to develop a reliable jumper (some people say Jimmy never really got there). You trade him for a late first, after a single season, and he does make huge jump in years two and three, not only do you get fired, you never work in the NBA again.

Oh, I don't think it would be hard at all to get a top-20 pick for Isaac ... he's playable right now in a defensive bench role and has a ton of upside. Teams that aren't looking for a savior or someone to sell tickets would welcome that.

I just think (as usual) we need to be very patient and not start churning players when they don't break out immediately.

I agree they should not move any of the core just to move them...but his potential as a 2 way player is just as good if not better than most wings at the same age and that alone makes him worth at least a late lottery pick in this top heavy draft. The Cavs flashed his potential on ball late in the season and I don't want them to trade him but that flash is a accidental marketing strategy to move him even if they don't plan to or want to have the opportunity to teams are calling imo.
Teams see what he can do as an on ball forward making plays and scoring and they will give up value even without him improving his pull up game or lack of one.

I don't think he can return a late lottery pick, but even if he could, I'd really question whether the Cavs were even minimally competent if they moved him for one. You drafted him for his ceiling, not his floor. Again, you knew his jumper was a work in progress when you drafted him. You knew he'd be a two or three year project on that end when you drafted him.

So after his rookie season, without even giving him a single summer to work on that jumper, you trade him just to trade him? Why'd we even draft him if that was the case?

If the problem is he's not a good fit with Sexton because Sexton needs to play alongside shooters, then move one of them to the bench. But Sexton isn't good enough on his own to justify shipping young guys with potential out altogether. He's just not that guy.

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[Stillwater]

Oh, I don't think it would be hard at all to get a top-20 pick for Isaac ... he's playable right now in a defensive bench role and has a ton of upside. Teams that aren't looking for a savior or someone to sell tickets would welcome that.

I just think (as usual) we need to be very patient and not start churning players when they don't break out immediately.

I agree they should not move any of the core just to move them...but his potential as a 2 way player is just as good if not better than most wings at the same age and that alone makes him worth at least a late lottery pick in this top heavy draft. The Cavs flashed his potential on ball late in the season and I don't want them to trade him but that flash is a accidental marketing strategy to move him even if they don't plan to or want to have the opportunity to teams are calling imo.
Teams see what he can do as an on ball forward making plays and scoring and they will give up value even without him improving his pull up game or lack of one.

I don't think he can return a late lottery pick, but even if he could, I'd really question whether the Cavs were even minimally competent if they moved him for one. You drafted him for his ceiling, not his floor. Again, you knew his jumper was a work in progress when you drafted him. You knew he'd be a two or three year project on that end when you drafted him.

So after his rookie season, without even giving him a single summer to work on that jumper, you trade him just to trade him? Why'd we even draft him if that was the case?

If the problem is he's not a good fit with Sexton because Sexton needs to play alongside shooters, then move one of them to the bench. But Sexton isn't good enough on his own to justify shipping young guys with potential out altogether. He's just not that guy.

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Yeah its difficult for me to process what the plan is besides hoping for draft luck and maintaining the assets in place if it's the Koby show...but he also might be pressured to do some kind of lateral move is all I am thinking here. But if he gets fired I could see teams asking for Okoro's availability if nothing else available or not.
I dont think there is much value coming back for any of the cavs guard/forward core right now, not enough to justify any moves , but I also think no one is safe from getting moved if an overpay is on the table

[JonFromVA]

Oh, I don't think it would be hard at all to get a top-20 pick for Isaac ... he's playable right now in a defensive bench role and has a ton of upside. Teams that aren't looking for a savior or someone to sell tickets would welcome that.

I just think (as usual) we need to be very patient and not start churning players when they don't break out immediately.

I agree they should not move any of the core just to move them...but his potential as a 2 way player is just as good if not better than most wings at the same age and that alone makes him worth at least a late lottery pick in this top heavy draft. The Cavs flashed his potential on ball late in the season and I don't want them to trade him but that flash is a accidental marketing strategy to move him even if they don't plan to or want to have the opportunity to teams are calling imo.
Teams see what he can do as an on ball forward making plays and scoring and they will give up value even without him improving his pull up game or lack of one.

I don't think he can return a late lottery pick, but even if he could, I'd really question whether the Cavs were even minimally competent if they moved him for one. You drafted him for his ceiling, not his floor. Again, you knew his jumper was a work in progress when you drafted him. You knew he'd be a two or three year project on that end when you drafted him.

So after his rookie season, without even giving him a single summer to work on that jumper, you trade him just to trade him? Why'd we even draft him if that was the case?

If the problem is he's not a good fit with Sexton because Sexton needs to play alongside shooters, then move one of them to the bench. But Sexton isn't good enough on his own to justify shipping young guys with potential out altogether. He's just not that guy.

There isn't much precedent for a top-5/top-8 pick being traded for a draft pick. They're typically traded for a player in a win-now type of move or occasionally to help dump another contract.

The closest thing I can even think of is when Philly traded MCW (the 11th pick in the draft) after his ROY season; but by then he was already 23, was not efficient, and Hinkie was launching his epic tank job.

I find it fun to go back and read stuff like this:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Situational-Statistics-the-2013-Point-Guard-Crop-4268/

MCW never did become a better shooter.

But this guy still demonstrates his strength:

"Australian point guard Matthew Dellavedova doesn't stand out as a scorer, but his 10.4 possessions resulting from passes out of the pick and roll per-game lead this group by a wide margin and are a reflection of his tremendous feel for setting the table dribbling off ball screens. ©DraftExpress"

[jbk1234]

I agree they should not move any of the core just to move them...but his potential as a 2 way player is just as good if not better than most wings at the same age and that alone makes him worth at least a late lottery pick in this top heavy draft. The Cavs flashed his potential on ball late in the season and I don't want them to trade him but that flash is a accidental marketing strategy to move him even if they don't plan to or want to have the opportunity to teams are calling imo.
Teams see what he can do as an on ball forward making plays and scoring and they will give up value even without him improving his pull up game or lack of one.

I don't think he can return a late lottery pick, but even if he could, I'd really question whether the Cavs were even minimally competent if they moved him for one. You drafted him for his ceiling, not his floor. Again, you knew his jumper was a work in progress when you drafted him. You knew he'd be a two or three year project on that end when you drafted him.

So after his rookie season, without even giving him a single summer to work on that jumper, you trade him just to trade him? Why'd we even draft him if that was the case?

If the problem is he's not a good fit with Sexton because Sexton needs to play alongside shooters, then move one of them to the bench. But Sexton isn't good enough on his own to justify shipping young guys with potential out altogether. He's just not that guy.

There isn't much precedent for a top-5/top-8 pick being traded for a draft pick. They're typically traded for a player in a win-now type of move or occasionally to help dump another contract.

The closest thing I can even think of is when Philly traded MCW (the 11th pick in the draft) after his ROY season; but by then he was already 23, was not efficient, and Hinkie was launching his epic tank job.

I find it fun to go back and read stuff like this:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Situational-Statistics-the-2013-Point-Guard-Crop-4268/

MCW never did become a better shooter.

But this guy still demonstrates his strength:

"Australian point guard Matthew Dellavedova doesn't stand out as a scorer, but his 10.4 possessions resulting from passes out of the pick and roll per-game lead this group by a wide margin and are a reflection of his tremendous feel for setting the table dribbling off ball screens. DraftExpress"

And before MCW, MKG was the guy who never developed a jumper. Before him, Tony Allen. There's precedent going both ways. I just can't imagine that the Cavs expected Okoro to get there in his rookie year. That would be a first.

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[Stillwater]

Watch on YouTube

Sengun is really going to be high on a lot of boards imo ...higher than he is on national media outlet mocks right now.
I don't see him super high on Cavs board, but there is some optimism he can make the switch to the 4 and would be pretty solid there.
This is just a short video of him taking some shots . The mechanics look sound too me.

[JonFromVA]

I don't think he can return a late lottery pick, but even if he could, I'd really question whether the Cavs were even minimally competent if they moved him for one. You drafted him for his ceiling, not his floor. Again, you knew his jumper was a work in progress when you drafted him. You knew he'd be a two or three year project on that end when you drafted him.

So after his rookie season, without even giving him a single summer to work on that jumper, you trade him just to trade him? Why'd we even draft him if that was the case?

If the problem is he's not a good fit with Sexton because Sexton needs to play alongside shooters, then move one of them to the bench. But Sexton isn't good enough on his own to justify shipping young guys with potential out altogether. He's just not that guy.

There isn't much precedent for a top-5/top-8 pick being traded for a draft pick. They're typically traded for a player in a win-now type of move or occasionally to help dump another contract.

The closest thing I can even think of is when Philly traded MCW (the 11th pick in the draft) after his ROY season; but by then he was already 23, was not efficient, and Hinkie was launching his epic tank job.

I find it fun to go back and read stuff like this:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Situational-Statistics-the-2013-Point-Guard-Crop-4268/

MCW never did become a better shooter.

But this guy still demonstrates his strength:

"Australian point guard Matthew Dellavedova doesn't stand out as a scorer, but his 10.4 possessions resulting from passes out of the pick and roll per-game lead this group by a wide margin and are a reflection of his tremendous feel for setting the table dribbling off ball screens. DraftExpress"

And before MCW, MKG was the guy who never developed a jumper. Before him, Tony Allen. There's precedent going both ways. I just can't imagine that the Cavs expected Okoro to get there in his rookie year. That would be a first.

That home split tells me we shouldn't have to wait long to see progress from Isaac.

[jbk1234]

There isn't much precedent for a top-5/top-8 pick being traded for a draft pick. They're typically traded for a player in a win-now type of move or occasionally to help dump another contract.

The closest thing I can even think of is when Philly traded MCW (the 11th pick in the draft) after his ROY season; but by then he was already 23, was not efficient, and Hinkie was launching his epic tank job.

I find it fun to go back and read stuff like this:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Situational-Statistics-the-2013-Point-Guard-Crop-4268/

MCW never did become a better shooter.

But this guy still demonstrates his strength:

"Australian point guard Matthew Dellavedova doesn't stand out as a scorer, but his 10.4 possessions resulting from passes out of the pick and roll per-game lead this group by a wide margin and are a reflection of his tremendous feel for setting the table dribbling off ball screens. DraftExpress"

And before MCW, MKG was the guy who never developed a jumper. Before him, Tony Allen. There's precedent going both ways. I just can't imagine that the Cavs expected Okoro to get there in his rookie year. That would be a first.

That home split tells me we shouldn't have to wait long to see progress from Isaac.

The last third of the season he seemed more comfortable offensively.

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[JonFromVA]

And before MCW, MKG was the guy who never developed a jumper. Before him, Tony Allen. There's precedent going both ways. I just can't imagine that the Cavs expected Okoro to get there in his rookie year. That would be a first.

That home split tells me we shouldn't have to wait long to see progress from Isaac.

The last third of the season he seemed more comfortable offensively.

He was way more involved in the offense, but minutes and injuries pile up. He finished the season shooting 4 for 20 on 3pters and his +/- which had taken a big bump up in April, regressed in May.

But far better with Garland out to ask Sexton and Okoro to expand their games then laying it on Osman, Thomas, Dotson, etc.

[KuruptedCav]

Thank goodness the Cavs won that meaningless game


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