Did we give up on Cameron Payne too early?

Post #101 » by **dougthonus** » Mon Jun 7, 2021 1:17 am

HomoSapien wrote:PG. Rose/Rondo/Augustin
SG.Dinwiddie/Holiday/Moore
SF.Butler/McDermott/Nwaba
PF.Mirotic/Portis
C. Lopez/Taj/Gafford

This opinion looks worse this year than it did a year ago since Rondo and Dinwiddie in general had non-impact years. I'm cheating by counting Mirotic, but I'll count him since he's not retired. Not a spectacular team, but one that I think would've probably been a very solid playoff team and based on where we've been that last few seasons I'd be pretty happy with that.

I don't know if that's a playoff team.

Outside of Butler, not sure if a single dude on that list is a meaningfully above MLE player. I don't feel bad about letting any of those guys go under the circumstances they left. Probably have the most remorse for Gafford actually.

They're just random guys on market level deals.

kodo · Post #102 » by **kodo** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:15 am

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401337334

https://imgur.com/8CjuK7y

ThreeMileAllan · Post #103 » by **ThreeMileAllan** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:33 am

People forget he was coming off major injury. It takes time to come to form especially if it is during your developmental years

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Post #104 » by **fleet** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:33 am

can’t force a guy to grow up on your schedule. We also didn’t have a CP3 for him to study and rub off on. We also never had a team talent structure for him to be able to become a successful role player in. He probably doesn’t do quite this well in many other circumstances.

erlim · Post #105 » by **erlim** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:40 am

Michael Jackson wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Honestly, if we're talking about guys we maybe gave up on too soon why not mention Bobby Portis? He's having a better season than Payne and also doing it on a contender.

just like Paynbe though his best fit wasn't on the Bulls. He is absolutely perfect in his role for the Bucks. It can be argued that maybe we should have given up on Bobby sooner and kept Mirotic happy instead of making him run back to Europe with his tail tucked between his legs..

Maybe we could argue we gave up on Mirotic too early, didn’t he become MVP in the euroleague? Probably would have had a greater impact than Lauri.

Post #106 » by **HomoSapien** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:33 am

erlim wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Honestly, if we're talking about guys we maybe gave up on too soon why not mention Bobby Portis? He's having a better season than Payne and also doing it on a contender.

just like Paynbe though his best fit wasn't on the Bulls. He is absolutely perfect in his role for the Bucks. It can be argued that maybe we should have given up on Bobby sooner and kept Mirotic happy instead of making him run back to Europe with his tail tucked between his legs..

Maybe we could argue we gave up on Mirotic too early, didn’t he become MVP in the euroleague? Probably would have had a greater impact than Lauri.

I certainly feel that way. I think we screwed up his development from start to finish with there almost always being a logjam of big men during his time here. He could have been an important piece and a more meaningful NBA player under better circumstances.

RSP83 · Post #107 » by **RSP83** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:36 am

Whatever happened with the old regime, we just have to move on. Let's just hope the new FO don't screw up like the old one. In regards to Lauri negative development this year, not sure I'm going to blame it on current FO and BD. Lauri had many chance, and what I see is a poor man's Gallo.

PlayerUp · Post #108 » by **PlayerUp** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:14 am

The key to development is actually getting the right system and staff around your players so they can fully develop and prosper. Gar/Pax budgeted everything and as a result we only had 1 trainer on the payroll. The problem was without a doubt them and their inability to develop anyone while at the same time taking low ceiling players they thought were NBA ready with our limited picks.

They screwed everything up and at least AKME so far have made some progress with turning things around because Gar/Pax were the absolute worst.

PlayerUp · Post #109 » by **PlayerUp** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:16 am

ThreeMileAllan wrote:People forget he was coming off major injury. It takes time to come to form especially if it is during your developmental years

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Which is why you target players who had injuries and watch them bounce back.

- Porter
- Lavine
- etc

Buy low.

Post #110 » by **fleet** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:52 pm

PlayerUp wrote:The key to development is actually getting the right system and staff around your players so they can fully develop and prosper. Gar/Pax budgeted everything and as a result we only had 1 trainer on the payroll. The problem was without a doubt them and their inability to develop anyone while at the same time taking low ceiling players they thought were NBA ready with our limited picks.

They screwed everything up and at least AKME so far have made some progress with turning things around because Gar/Pax were the absolute worst.

I liked the deal at first, but I don’t think we moved the ball really. Probably maintained.

Post #111 » by **Michael Jackson** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:12 pm

erlim wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:Honestly, if we're talking about guys we maybe gave up on too soon why not mention Bobby Portis? He's having a better season than Payne and also doing it on a contender.

just like Paynbe though his best fit wasn't on the Bulls. He is absolutely perfect in his role for the Bucks. It can be argued that maybe we should have given up on Bobby sooner and kept Mirotic happy instead of making him run back to Europe with his tail tucked between his legs..

Maybe we could argue we gave up on Mirotic too early, didn’t he become MVP in the euroleague? Probably would have had a greater impact than Lauri.

We needed to support Mirotic in the Portis situation. That being said not sure Mirotic really was ever suited for the NBA culture. He was skilled enough to play here but I just don’t think he ever fit in. IIRC didn’t most the players side with Portis? Portis seems like a punk but maybe Mirotic was a bigger one? Not sure but I would have liked to have seen him grow with this team and I never liked crazy eyes myself.

ATRAIN53 · Post #112 » by **ATRAIN53** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:08 pm

I totally forgot this-

2015 NBA Draft

13 PHO Devin Booker/Kentucky
14 OKC Cameron Payne/Murray State

and for fun - this guy has 2 DNP so far in the series....
9 CHO Frank Kaminsky/Wisconsin

The guy has started only 29 games since he got drafted and 26 of those were with the Bulls.
We gave him the most oportunity IMO.

Once we landed Dunn and drafted Coby we cut bait and he's really been hanging on as a journeyman.

He's playing the best basketball on the biggest stage of his career.
Just be happy for the guy. I don't thin he really is THIS good but it counts now more than ever and he's doing it.

I'm kinda hoping it's getting under GarPax skin as they watch him dominate like this.

Post #113 » by **Ice Man** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:28 pm

Nah, we gave him a chance and he didn't play well for us. But a good lesson about drawing early conclusions on young players. We can guess, but we never fully know what these kids will become until sometime during the second contract.

CobyWhite0 · Post #114 » by **CobyWhite0** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:53 pm

Obviously and blatantly, we gave up on Cam too early. But who cares? Hindsight is 20/20, just like it's easy to say that picking Sam Bowie over MJ in the draft was an obvious and blatant mistake after a few years in the league. But on draft night? Nobody questioned them.

And nobody questioned the Bulls when the cut Cam loose.

d boy gentleman · Post #115 » by **d boy gentleman** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:57 pm

These 20/20 hindsight posts always amuse me...

Cam was extremely immature while he was on both the Thunder and the Bulls. Seemingly he was more interested in dance moves than he was with basketball. Maybe the threat of his hoop dreams being taken away from him wisened him up, but to say that the Bulls gave up on an immature Cam Payne that seemingly wasn't interested in basketball is ridiculous. He found a team and system that suits him along with further maturity and I'm happy for him. However, I don't look at the Bulls giving up on the version of Cam Payne that they got as "giving up too early"

sco · Post #116 » by **sco** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:39 pm

d boy gentleman wrote:These 20/20 hindsight posts always amuse me...

Cam was extremely immature while he was on both the Thunder and the Bulls. Seemingly he was more interested in dance moves than he was with basketball. Maybe the threat of his hope dreams being taken away from him wisened him up, but to say that the Bulls gave up on an immature Cam Payne that seemingly wasn't interested in basketball is ridiculous. He found and team and system that suits him along with further maturity and I'm happy for him. However, I don't look at the Bulls giving up on the version of Cam Payne that they got as "giving up too early"

Perfectly put! Not every guy improves before year 4, but there was nothing to suggest that Payne would be one of those guys.

I watched him closely in his last game and, while I still hate his 3pt stroke, his all around game was light-years ahead of Coby's. Good plays - getting around elite defenders to penetrate and find open guys for good shots. Smart/effective defense.

biggestbullsfan · Post #117 » by **biggestbullsfan** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:43 pm

No he was trash here. Some ppl need a change of scenery and flourish and some are just bad. He was the former and that’s fine. He wouldn’t stayed trash if he was here. But also let’s not ever bring him back lol

Mech Engineer · Post #118 » by **Mech Engineer** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:05 pm

Lucky GarPax are gone...they might have found a way to give Cam Payne a max contract next year.

The only thing we knew was he could shoot for a PG even though his stats might have sucked. The problem was Fred and GarPax were horrible in developing and identifying PGs. Pax has struggled with a whole list of PGS and could never find anyone other than the obvious one with Rose. Hope AK can figure out talent and develop raw players like Payne.

He was after all picked by Presti...they could have stuck with him a little more.

Am2626 · Post #119 » by **Am2626** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:23 pm

GusFring wrote:No, he's one of the worst NBA players I've ever seen. Spencer Dinwiddie though? Yes.

Cam Payne was never going to develop in Chicago. Just terrible culture, coaching and FO. He needed to leave Chicago to get where he is now. He probably could come to the Bulls now and be a solid addition. What’s his contract status like?

Mech Engineer · Post #120 » by **Mech Engineer** » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:37 pm

Am2626 wrote:
GusFring wrote:No, he's one of the worst NBA players I've ever seen. Spencer Dinwiddie though? Yes.

Cam Payne was never going to develop in Chicago. Just terrible culture, coaching and FO. He needed to leave Chicago to get where he is now. He probably could come to the Bulls now and be a solid addition. What’s his contract status like?

You are probably right.

But, a different coach in the G league other than Hoiberg/Boylen seems to have worked. The PG position after Rose has had a new guy every few months. Even Reggie Jackson struggled in a few places and now seems to be excelling in his role.

I am still not sure if Payne is a consistent starter but definitely seems to be a pretty good backup or a 3rd guard on a good team.