[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors

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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#41 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:30 am

70sFan wrote:
To this point, I've not said where I'm ranking Wilt, so what exactly constitutes "too far" here?

Not about ranking, more about blaming Wilt for every Warriors problems.


So I'm afraid I don't have the energy to keep the point-by-point debate going. Wanted to just speak to this.

I feel like you're reading solo-blame toward Wilt whenever I point a problem with Wilt's team that he had something to do with, and this is not how I intend for folks to read my posts. I think that it isn't practical for communication for someone pointing something out in one direction to also point out every possible caveat that could be pointed out in the other direction.

It is, on the other hand, quite practical for those who object on the basis of a caveat to bring this up as part of their riposte, which I expect you've been aiming to do in this thread.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#42 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:38 am

70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:What do we mean by players had superior strategy today than before? The rules are different.

There wasn't even a 3 point line in the NBA during Nate Thurmond's career. Why would it be relevant if he is better than a player who is better at guarding the 3 point line?


It isn't like the 2000s where they were undershooting from long range, they did not even have the option during Nate's day.


I think it's fine if you want to say that Thurmond was something close to perfect for his time's defense and a more modern player shouldn't gain an advantage over him simply because the modern player is more adapted to the rules and strategy of today.

What rubs me the wrong way is the idea that the guy who may well be the single best defender of the 2010s (Draymond) would be knocked relative to the defense of previous eras. The idea that we'd be effectively saying "The best defenders ever were in the past" while pointing to guys who'd get torched by today's shooters just seems weird.

I will say, when asked "GOAT Defender?" my immediate though remains "Bill Russell" so this is on me too, and I don't mean to come across all sanctimonious. I'm still grappling with this myself, so I'm not looking to say "this is the way", but I do think it should cause more brows to furrow than merely my own.

Why do you think that Thurmond would get torched by today's shooters but Russell wouldn't? I am aware that Russell was better equipped to today's game than Thurmond (he's better equipped than almost anybody), but I don't see any evidences that Thurmond wouldn't fare better than most bigs in today's league. He was fairly mobile, he was smart, he possessed excellent defensive fundamentals.

I don't know, sometimes I wonder how many people really watched Thurmond games (that's not necessarily on you Doc). It seems that people think that he was a powerful low post banger in Eaton/Hibbert mold.


I feel like you answered your own question there, so I'm not sure what to say. I'd imagine you understood implicitly that I was speaking about Russell's superior mobility. Most bigs are being torched, hence why I'm arguing on the behalf of Draymond Green a non-big big.

I'll readily admit to have not seen anywhere near as much vintage footage of guys like Thurmond as I'd like, and that despite me talking stridently, I fundamentally believe I could be wrong about any of the stuff I currently believe.

To be clear, I don't see Thurmond like Eaton/Hibbert. I suppose I kind of see him built like a taller Karl Malone. Strong as hell and quicker than most his size. How would you describe him?
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#43 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:45 am

1. '15-16 Steph Curry - one of the great outlying season in all of history.

2. '63-64 Wilt Chamberlain - likely his defensive apex, which is a really big deal

3. '16-17 Kevin Durant - has a serious argument for #1 with that epic crescendo, but I can't actually say I feel like he was more valuable on average than his teammate was, and while in theory that could leave him at #2, well, I suppose I'd say that while Durant stood on the shoulders of giants, Wilt & Curry were their own giants.

4. '55-56 Paul Arizin - absolute dream season from a guy who I really think could play in any era.

5. '74-75 Rick Barry - he was the fulcrum of everything that team did, and they went all the way.

HM: Draymond, Mullin, Klay, Baron, and hey, Nate Thurmond
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#44 » by Outside » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:42 am

I haven't been participating in the project, so feel free to throw my ballot in the trash, but here it is anyway.

1. 2015-16 Steph Curry
A transcendent regular season, ruined only by his knee injury in the postseason. He has the stats and the metrics, but seeing it as it unfolded, the stats and metrics didn't begin to describe how magical he was. He had been a solid month of amazing, and then he had that Oklahoma City game that was beyond the power of words to describe, to have already made 11 threes and then pull up from 35 feet with seconds left in OT and see the Thunder bench imploring their teammates to get him, you can't leave him open there, when he's 35 feet from the basket, and to see the resignation on their faces as they see him launch it and they know it's going in. Soon after, I went and stood on a court 35 feet from the basket -- that's 15 feet beyond the top of the key -- and to know that Curry can do that from that distance is mind boggling. The reality of that season was a revelation because I came to understand the extent of how Curry's range changed the game and how his gravity is a force multiplier for his team's success beyond his own stats.

2. 1963-64 Wilt Chamberlain
I suppose the easy Wilt season to pick with the Warriors is 1961-62 with 50.4 PPG and 25.7 RPG, but by 1963-64, he was becoming the better version of himself even if his production was lower (though still really high). This was easily his best season for assists to that time, 5.0 vs 3.4 the previous season. He was able to lead a mediocre roster to the finals (Nate Thurmond was just a rookie, and the vets were mostly past their prime and really inefficient shooters). They were good defensively but lousy offensively. Wilt was better as a Sixer, but this was probably his best overall season as a Warrior.

3. 1974-75 Rick Barry
This was Barry at the peak of his powers, and he topped it off with a championship where he was clearly the best player on the floor. His ninth season, he was still a premier scorer, and he had the depth to his game that comes with maturity but hadn't yet begun to succumb to physical decline.

4. 2016-17 Kevin Durant
I suppose I have him lower than others, and I was conflicted about whether to have him third or fourth, but ultimately I gave Barry the nod for being such a clear alpha. Although Durant had spectacular numbers during this season, I view it to a certain extent as Durant unleashed by the presence of Curry. Curry deferred to Durant, and Curry's gravity benefitted Durant greatly, as did the team's willingness to indulge Durant's playing style. This was perhaps the greatest team of all time, but I'm not sure it's clear cut who the most impactful and important player was.

5. 1966-67 Nate Thurmond
This was difficult for me to choose between Nate and 2015-16 Draymond, but I give Thurmond the nod due to his ability to be a clear second option on offense in addition to an all-time great defensive anchor. Thurmond wasn't efficient on offense, but he could produce. Draymond has an obvious edge from a playmaking perspective, but Thurmond has an edge as a rebounder. I love Draymond and appreciate how great he is leading a team defense in the current era, but Thurmond was also an elite defensive anchor who could guard the best big men of the big man era and also guard in space. Both had exceptional intelligence, exceptional competitiveness, and were exceptional teammates. Very close, but my heart leads my head to go with Thurmond.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#45 » by 70sFan » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:01 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I think it's fine if you want to say that Thurmond was something close to perfect for his time's defense and a more modern player shouldn't gain an advantage over him simply because the modern player is more adapted to the rules and strategy of today.

What rubs me the wrong way is the idea that the guy who may well be the single best defender of the 2010s (Draymond) would be knocked relative to the defense of previous eras. The idea that we'd be effectively saying "The best defenders ever were in the past" while pointing to guys who'd get torched by today's shooters just seems weird.

I will say, when asked "GOAT Defender?" my immediate though remains "Bill Russell" so this is on me too, and I don't mean to come across all sanctimonious. I'm still grappling with this myself, so I'm not looking to say "this is the way", but I do think it should cause more brows to furrow than merely my own.

Why do you think that Thurmond would get torched by today's shooters but Russell wouldn't? I am aware that Russell was better equipped to today's game than Thurmond (he's better equipped than almost anybody), but I don't see any evidences that Thurmond wouldn't fare better than most bigs in today's league. He was fairly mobile, he was smart, he possessed excellent defensive fundamentals.

I don't know, sometimes I wonder how many people really watched Thurmond games (that's not necessarily on you Doc). It seems that people think that he was a powerful low post banger in Eaton/Hibbert mold.


I feel like you answered your own question there, so I'm not sure what to say. I'd imagine you understood implicitly that I was speaking about Russell's superior mobility. Most bigs are being torched, hence why I'm arguing on the behalf of Draymond Green a non-big big.

I'll readily admit to have not seen anywhere near as much vintage footage of guys like Thurmond as I'd like, and that despite me talking stridently, I fundamentally believe I could be wrong about any of the stuff I currently believe.

To be clear, I don't see Thurmond like Eaton/Hibbert. I suppose I kind of see him built like a taller Karl Malone. Strong as hell and quicker than most his size. How would you describe him?

I wouldn't use Karl Malone as a comparison for Thurmond. Thurmond had that freakish build, but he wasn't as bulky and muscular as Malone - he was far leaner and longer. A lot of people don't realize that Thurmond wasn't massive - he weighed within 240-250 lbs range for his prime. He was more like shorter, but longer David Robinson with more powerful lower body. Of course he wasn't as athletic as David (particulary in terms of speed).

About two months ago, I made a short highlight clip of Thurmond's defense in which I included a few possessions when he guarded perimeter players:



I also made a longer post about Thurmond's defense a few days ago on GB - it's more about Thurmond's post defense but there are some overall thoughts from my part here:

Spoiler:
70sFan wrote:
coastalmarker99 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Thurmond did that to him in playoffs, but to be honest Thurmond did that to any bigman he faced. Giannis struggling against Heat definitely looks worse. Great for him that he reinvented himself in Nets series though!



Why do you think Nate was so successful against both Wilt and Kareem as he was the only defender that both guys actually feared going up against throughout their careers.

Combination of his length, strength and dedication to defensive fundamentals. Thurmond studied his opponents on consistent basis and he worked out on his footwork on defense to counter opponent moves. He basically tried to force them to play his game, instead of simply adjusting for what they did. He also always played opponents tight, gave them no space to operate.



On top of that, his freakish length allowed him to contest shots that players normally can't reach without overcommiting (there are reports that says Thurmond had longer wingspan than 7'8):



Even guys as big as Wilt or Kareem couldn't get their shots cleanly on him:





These last two plays look impressive, but when you realize that Wilt and Jabbar were 7'2 monsters with very long arms, then you'll realize how special Thurmond truly was.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#46 » by 70sFan » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:21 am

1. 1963/64 Wilt Chamberlain - I enjoyed anohter discussion with Doctor MJ about Wilt (I hope he at least didn't mind it either), but I won't change my mind on this topic. Wilt put up one of the greatest defensive seasons ever while carrying extremely untalented offensive roster to very good RS. He had one of his finest postseason runs as well. It's by far Wilt's most complete Warriors season to me, although 1962 gets disrespected a bit recently.

2. 2016/17 Steph Curry - 2016 could be above 2017, but I don't like his postseason run full of injuries and underperformances. Curry is GOAT-level offensive player and the catalyst of the greatest team ever, I don't see anyone else approching that kind of impact/

3. 2016/17 Kevin Durant - absurd efficiency from high volume scorer isn't something that we see often. I have some concerns about Durant's playing style, but I can't deny that he made Warriors the greatest and I have to pick him here. Why not 2018? Because I think that he fit better in Warriors offense in the first season, after the first title he started to come back to his old style.

4. 1974/75 Rick Barry - has a strong argument over Durant and the only concern I have with Barry is his lack of efficiency. Barry was very smart player, but his shooting selection could be questionable at times. I think that the three point line would help him a lot, but he didn't have it and he should have made more out of his athleticism and size inside.

5. 1955/56 Paul Arizin - I knock him down slightly for the era he played in. Not that the 1956 NBA was bad (it wasn't), but I think that the league started to improve massively around that time and it wasn't fully developed yet. He has very strong case for the 3rd spot otherwise, all-time great postseason run combined with strong RS. Neil Johnston underperformed in playoffs, but Arizin upped his game in toughest moments.

I have only two HMs: 1972 Thurmond and 2016 Green. I feel very bad for missing them on this list, they were both absurdly good and in some franchises they'd fight for the 1st spot. Warriors are quite stacked in historical sense, I think that only Lakers have clearly better top 5.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#47 » by Odinn21 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:05 pm

A little less than 3 hours left on the clock for this one.

---

1. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
2. 2017 Stephen Curry

Both are quite well-reasoned already. Will just provide a different perspective. 1964 is probably Chamberlain's 2nd best season, definitely one of his top 3 seasons. The same goes for Curry. These 2 seasons overlapped with another all-time great's top seasons. Looking at Chamberlain's position relative to Russell and Curry's position relative to James, it was the tiebreaker for me.

3. 1975 Rick Barry
4. 2017 Kevin Durant

Quality wise Durant takes it with superior efficiency (Barry had better passing/playmaking) but he missed way too many games to be over Rick Barry's heavy load season.

5. 1972 Nate Thurmond
I initially had Paul Arizin for this spot but was uncomfortable with it because I'm never comfortable with the players from the '50s because I think that I did not get to see enough of them to build a good, healthy opinion. Going with Thurmond here. Even without his defense against Kareem, I'd see a case for him. With his performance against the goat low post scorer? Not only his defense on Kareem, his overall production rate was superior to Kareem as well. He's in for me.

HMs; 1956 Paul Arizin, 2016 Draymond Green

---

Outside wrote:I haven't been participating in the project, so feel free to throw my ballot in the trash, but here it is anyway.

This is not a voter-pool restricted project. Any vote within the rules is welcomed. Thanks for participating. (:
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Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#48 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:22 pm

1. 2016 Steph Curry
2. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain

The cream of the crop here. Curry is arguably the best player in the modern era, and as I think it is more difficult to play in the modern era, he gets the nod here.

3. 2019 Kevin Durant

Sure, he was injured towards the end, but he learned something and humbled himself during his time on the Harlem Globetrotters--I mean Golden State Warriors. This version was the Apex, sans this season.

4. 1975 Rick Barry

Attitude aside, tremendous talent but not a GOAT level talent like the 3 above guys.

5. 2016 Draymond Green

The 1B to Curry's 1A in 2015 and 2016.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#49 » by Odinn21 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:31 pm

70sFan wrote:I think that only Lakers have clearly better top 5.

The Warriors franchise is quite interesting in this sense. Their top 5 players like this (or all-time starting 5 for that matter) are only short of the Lakers. One can make a good case for the Warriors 5 over the Spurs 5 or the Celtics 5. But in terms of sustained success, they are barely top 5 franchise or even not with .482 win rate in regular seasons.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#50 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:36 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I think that only Lakers have clearly better top 5.

The Warriors franchise is quite interesting in this sense. Their top 5 players like this (or all-time starting 5 for that matter) are only short of the Lakers. One can make a good case for the Warriors 5 over the Spurs 5 or the Celtics 5. But in terms of sustained success, they are barely top 5 franchise or even not with .482 win rate in regular seasons.


I think the Celtics would beat this team head to head.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#51 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:45 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I think that only Lakers have clearly better top 5.

The Warriors franchise is quite interesting in this sense. Their top 5 players like this (or all-time starting 5 for that matter) are only short of the Lakers. One can make a good case for the Warriors 5 over the Spurs 5 or the Celtics 5. But in terms of sustained success, they are barely top 5 franchise or even not with .482 win rate in regular seasons.


I think the Celtics would beat this team head to head.


The top 3 is comparable but McHale and Havlicek weren't as good relative to their era in their peak seasons as Barry and Arizin were. I think the 76ers are probably the closest to the Lakers but it's hard to seperate the top 5 talents for the 76ers, Warriors and Celtics.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#52 » by 70sFan » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:48 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:The Warriors franchise is quite interesting in this sense. Their top 5 players like this (or all-time starting 5 for that matter) are only short of the Lakers. One can make a good case for the Warriors 5 over the Spurs 5 or the Celtics 5. But in terms of sustained success, they are barely top 5 franchise or even not with .482 win rate in regular seasons.


I think the Celtics would beat this team head to head.


The top 3 is comparable but McHale and Havlicek weren't as good relative to their era in their peak seasons as Barry and Arizin were. I think the 76ers are probably the closest to the Lakers but it's hard to seperate the top 5 talents for the 76ers, Warriors and Celtics.

I don't think Hondo was clearly worse than Barry at his peak. Mind you that Havlicek peaked around 1972-74 period, not in the 1960s or late 1970s.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#53 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:48 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:The Warriors franchise is quite interesting in this sense. Their top 5 players like this (or all-time starting 5 for that matter) are only short of the Lakers. One can make a good case for the Warriors 5 over the Spurs 5 or the Celtics 5. But in terms of sustained success, they are barely top 5 franchise or even not with .482 win rate in regular seasons.


I think the Celtics would beat this team head to head.


The top 3 is comparable but McHale and Havlicek weren't as good relative to their era in their peak seasons as Barry and Arizin were. I think the 76ers are probably the closest to the Lakers but it's hard to seperate the top 5 talents for the 76ers, Warriors and Celtics.


If the teams are playing then I assume its in todays NBA, not each player playing in their own era's rules.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#54 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:59 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
I think the Celtics would beat this team head to head.


The top 3 is comparable but McHale and Havlicek weren't as good relative to their era in their peak seasons as Barry and Arizin were. I think the 76ers are probably the closest to the Lakers but it's hard to seperate the top 5 talents for the 76ers, Warriors and Celtics.


If the teams are playing then I assume its in todays NBA, not each player playing in their own era's rules.


I figured we were just talking about the quality of the top 5s, not how they'd do as teams.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#55 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:02 pm

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
I think the Celtics would beat this team head to head.


The top 3 is comparable but McHale and Havlicek weren't as good relative to their era in their peak seasons as Barry and Arizin were. I think the 76ers are probably the closest to the Lakers but it's hard to seperate the top 5 talents for the 76ers, Warriors and Celtics.

I don't think Hondo was clearly worse than Barry at his peak. Mind you that Havlicek peaked around 1972-74 period, not in the 1960s or late 1970s.


I think Havlicek and Barry are comparable players at their peak. I think Havlicek has the advantage in terms of average prime years but at the same time I also don't think he ever had a season as complete as the 74/75 season Barry had. McHale is similar as his best regular seasons weren't always accompanied by strong post-seasons and vice versa, while both Barry and Arizin had clear peak seasons where everything came together at the right time.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#56 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:20 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
The top 3 is comparable but McHale and Havlicek weren't as good relative to their era in their peak seasons as Barry and Arizin were. I think the 76ers are probably the closest to the Lakers but it's hard to seperate the top 5 talents for the 76ers, Warriors and Celtics.


If the teams are playing then I assume its in todays NBA, not each player playing in their own era's rules.


I figured we were just talking about the quality of the top 5s, not how they'd do as teams.


You're right--I took this and interpreted it differently.

I agree that the Celtics, Lakers and Warriors are the top 3.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#57 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:52 pm

McHale/Havilcek/Cowens is very comparable to Barry/Arizin/Thurmond - I like the Celtics trio more.

Also like Russell/Garnett/Bird over Chamberlain/Curry/Durant - but of course very close.


Each franchises 7th, 8th etc men are pretty respectable against each other as well. Certainly think Celtics and Warriors are the same tier, but with Celtics a bit ahead.

Sixers match them if we are just talking top 4, but past the top 4 there's a bit of a drop off - depending on how feel about Dolph Schayes (though I guess it's reasonable that if you like Arizin you would like Schayes given they played in a similar era).
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#58 » by LA Bird » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:58 pm

Low on time so short explanations

1. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain: Second best season behind 67 and on par with peak Russell.
2. 2016 Stephen Curry: GOAT offensive regular season.
3. 2017 Kevin Durant: Super efficiency but missed a lot of RS games.
4. 2016 Draymond Green: DPOY defense with solid offensive impact from outlier 3pt shooting.
5. 1975 Rick Barry: Title run with little offensive support but his scoring efficiency is only a little above average.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#59 » by Odinn21 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:09 pm

I was expecting to see some sparks around top 5 franchises with their top 5 peaks. I might actually end the project with that after the Wizards thread.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Warriors 

Post#60 » by homecourtloss » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:21 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I think that only Lakers have clearly better top 5.

The Warriors franchise is quite interesting in this sense. Their top 5 players like this (or all-time starting 5 for that matter) are only short of the Lakers. One can make a good case for the Warriors 5 over the Spurs 5 or the Celtics 5. But in terms of sustained success, they are barely top 5 franchise or even not with .482 win rate in regular seasons.


Was going to mention exactly this. Going back to the earlier comment about looking at how many peaks the top 100 list played against, it’d also be interesting to see how the relative spread of a franchise’s respective peaks, i.e., spread out over many years, concentrated, overlaps of years, etc., helped translate into wins and title runs. Obviously, getting to have overlap of peaks involves a lot of luck for franchises.

Here for the Warriors we have Curry and Durant, with cases for Draymond and HM for Klay and you had an all time dominant run. You then have players like Wilt with nobody and you have no titles, though Wilt by himself got them close.
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