Wisconsin Badgers Thread

[Kerb Hohl]

Because they're not good enough.

Lol, I don't know if I've really seen somebody so out-of-touch with this subject.

Jonathan Davis might make the Team USA U19 team over several 5-star recruits.

Hepburn would have 50 offers if he decommitted.

Carlson, Crowl would have blueblood offers if they transferred. Wahl as well at the very least as a rotation guy.

If your argument was that Trevor Anderson left because he hated Gard and not also because he wanted to play more as a senior, even he got plenty of offers from mid-majors.

These guys all could've kept playing college hoops for literally anyone if they wanted to.

Just stop commenting.

I meant they're not good enough to leave to play pro basketball. Sure, they could go to Valpo.

OK, that's my question.

The seniors left to go pro. I think that's understandable for the 4 or 5 of them that have "pro" talent given they're all approaching their mid 20s to some degree.

So if Gard was such a **** person and horrible guy, we just saw like 1500 transfers. Jonathan Davis I can almost guarantee you could've gone to UCLA, Texas, Duke, UNC, you name it if he transferred. Why didn't he?

Wahl, Carlson, and Crowl were getting wooed by AAU-connection assistant now head coach Ben Johnson at hometown Minnesota (and I'm sure tons of other major programs if they were to declare as a transfer). Whoops! They're playing for Wisconsin next year.

They have 8 or 9 returning players + key freshman recruits that could've gone anywhere or at the very least to some greener college pasture. Why are they all still here?

Davison probably doesn't have much for pro prospects but plenty of high-major teams would've taken him. He came back.

[BigO]

Read on Twitter

So Gard has seven players who have serious concerns and Gard gets the credit for meeting with them? Would he rather have them issue a statement?

And all those old players being quoted played for Bo, not Gard. Gard was an assistant.

For those of you who want to dump on these players, consider that there are 7 of them(all of the senior class). They are from diverse backgrounds. There are starters and scrubs and all of them appear to be sincere young men with no apparent agenda. To have ALL of them rip Gard is significant and I believe them because of that.

So go ahead and dump on whoever recorded and released the tape. That's more than fair, especially since it seems the tape was significantly edited.

But for posters to dump on these players for the content of what they said is ignoring that Gard has serious issues. Just listen to the specifics of what they said rather than be macho guys and call them all soft.

[ReasonablySober]

So they're bums and not good enough to play at major D1. Yet simultaneously Gard is a terrible coach for not galvanizing them and winning the B1G with them (even though he did once).

Either the title was a fluke or he lost the team last year. Don't know which is worse.

[Kerb Hohl]

So they're bums and not good enough to play at major D1. Yet simultaneously Gard is a terrible coach for not galvanizing them and winning the B1G with them (even though he did once).

Either the title was a fluke or he lost the team last year. Don't know which is worse.

I mean it's possible he lost them for a few weeks. They played much better after said meeting. If you told me before the season that Wisconsin throttled UNC in the first round and then gave arguably the best run at the eventual national champion, I'd have said, "fair enough."

In general they were not getting pummeled. They were losing by 5 points to top 10-15 teams, again, even if you thought they were overrated, it's not like they completely quit on him.

There was probably COVID fatigue, etc. and all of the issues in the article where he "lost the team" and they lost a bunch of close games to good teams, even if you thought the B10 was overrated.

But I think a pretty fair question was asked. Pick your path:

1. Gard has **** talent (you've had this argument for a while) that he won a conference title with and you somehow expected to repeat and they did not so he "lost the team." Other than losing the team briefly, wouldn't you say that is an incredible/excellent job of taking the talent way beyond expectations?

2. Actually the talent is great but Gard is just a terrible connector and lost them. That would be odd, even I don't think that. But it's the only other logical conclusion.

[ReasonablySober]

The talent was what I've come to expect from the Wisconsin program for the last five years. The margin between success and failure is probably what it takes to lose the team for a few weeks.

[Kerb Hohl]

The talent was what I've come to expect from the Wisconsin program for the last five years. The margin between success and failure is probably what it takes to lose the team for a few weeks.

OK, so now you are saying that all Gard has to improve is just work on his player connection skills to not "lose the team" and we're going to have a perennial Big 10 winner, even with modest talent?

Isn't that something you'd rather just keep and work on rather than go into the unknown trying to find a better coach likely to accomplish that same thing that you are admitting Gard is very close to?

Over the last 3 years they are 38-22 in a conference that has improved drastically overall. And all you're saying is we need to fix that small margin of error of connecting to the players better?

[BigO]

So they're bums and not good enough to play at major D1. Yet simultaneously Gard is a terrible coach for not galvanizing them and winning the B1G with them (even though he did once).

Either the title was a fluke or he lost the team last year. Don't know which is worse.

I mean it's possible he lost them for a few weeks. They played much better after said meeting. If you told me before the season that Wisconsin throttled UNC in the first round and then gave arguably the best run at the eventual national champion, I'd have said, "fair enough."

In general they were not getting pummeled. They were losing by 5 points to top 10-15 teams, again, even if you thought they were overrated, it's not like they completely quit on him.

There was probably COVID fatigue, etc. and all of the issues in the article where he "lost the team" and they lost a bunch of close games to good teams, even if you thought the B10 was overrated.

But I think a pretty fair question was asked. Pick your path:

1. Gard has **** talent (you've had this argument for a while) that he won a conference title with and you somehow expected to repeat and they did not so he "lost the team." Other than losing the team briefly, wouldn't you say that is an incredible/excellent job of taking the talent way beyond expectations?

2. Actually the talent is great but Gard is just a terrible connector and lost them. That would be odd, even I don't think that. But it's the only other logical conclusion.

This isn't complicated. They couldn't stand the guy. They talked to him last year and it improved for a while and then he went back to his old way. If you're a parent, do you want your kid playing for a coach that your son and all of his teammates can' stand?

Maybe you do if it's Bobby Knight, but I wouldn't. I want my kid to have a strong leader, but also to enjoy his time at college. There will be enough a...h.. bosses after college.

If this was just about Trevor Anderson, it would be one thing. But to make fun of him and other bench guys when this is literally all 7 senior players, gives the appearance of trying to minimize the problem.

I wouldn't fire Gard for this, but I would be talking to him and developing a plan to change and then reviewing it with him during the season. If he doesn't like it, he can leave.

[Kerb Hohl]

Either the title was a fluke or he lost the team last year. Don't know which is worse.

I mean it's possible he lost them for a few weeks. They played much better after said meeting. If you told me before the season that Wisconsin throttled UNC in the first round and then gave arguably the best run at the eventual national champion, I'd have said, "fair enough."

In general they were not getting pummeled. They were losing by 5 points to top 10-15 teams, again, even if you thought they were overrated, it's not like they completely quit on him.

There was probably COVID fatigue, etc. and all of the issues in the article where he "lost the team" and they lost a bunch of close games to good teams, even if you thought the B10 was overrated.

But I think a pretty fair question was asked. Pick your path:

1. Gard has **** talent (you've had this argument for a while) that he won a conference title with and you somehow expected to repeat and they did not so he "lost the team." Other than losing the team briefly, wouldn't you say that is an incredible/excellent job of taking the talent way beyond expectations?

2. Actually the talent is great but Gard is just a terrible connector and lost them. That would be odd, even I don't think that. But it's the only other logical conclusion.

This isn't complicated. They couldn't stand the guy. They talked to him last year and it improved for a while and then he went back to his old way. If you're a parent, do you want your kid playing for a coach that your son and all of his teammates can' stand?

Maybe you do if it's Bobby Knight, but I wouldn't. I want my kid to have a strong leader, but also to enjoy his time at college. There will be enough a...h.. bosses after college.

If this was just about Trevor Anderson, it would be one thing. But to make fun of him and other bench guys when this is literally all 7 senior players, gives the appearance of trying to minimize the problem.

I wouldn't fire Gard for this, but I would be talking to him and developing a plan to change and then reviewing it with him during the season. If he doesn't like it, he can leave.

I can guarantee you this happens behind closed doors at a lot of other schools. The differences being the recordings weren't leaked and a lot of other programs these days only have guys there for 1-3 years and then they just transfer. This team was expected to be together for 4-5 years.

I'm not trying to minimize the problem by noting most of the guys went pro. I'm saying every guy that left either went pro or was not a great player and likely would rather play somewhere else, and sure, maybe Anderson had soured on Gard as well. The others are suggesting that it's an issue that "only 1 of 7 seniors returned that had the chance." It's pretty explainable when you actually look into it is all I'm saying.

If this was a serious, fireable issue, there would be 2-3 key underclassmen that left with a scorched earth approach and we'd see Micah Potter and Nate Reuvers grad transfer to Texas and Miami or something so they could cherish their time in college hoops with a different coach.

[ReasonablySober]

The talent was what I've come to expect from the Wisconsin program for the last five years. The margin between success and failure is probably what it takes to lose the team for a few weeks.

OK, so now you are saying that all Gard has to improve is just work on his player connection skills to not "lose the team" and we're going to have a perennial Big 10 winner, even with modest talent?

Isn't that something you'd rather just keep and work on rather than go into the unknown trying to find a better coach likely to accomplish that same thing that you are admitting Gard is very close to?

Over the last 3 years they are 38-22 in a conference that has improved drastically overall. And all you're saying is we need to fix that small margin of error of connecting to the players better?

I no longer have any expectations for real success. It's been beaten out of me. When I did, I was told here that we simply can't expect top level talent to come to Wisconsin. That the system is what it is and it won't change. That I shouldn't worry about the NBA level talent leaving the state every year. If the expectation is so low, that one of the best programs in the B1G can't keep talent in its own back yard, then I don't see the point of caring about any of this.

[Kerb Hohl]

The talent was what I've come to expect from the Wisconsin program for the last five years. The margin between success and failure is probably what it takes to lose the team for a few weeks.

OK, so now you are saying that all Gard has to improve is just work on his player connection skills to not "lose the team" and we're going to have a perennial Big 10 winner, even with modest talent?

Isn't that something you'd rather just keep and work on rather than go into the unknown trying to find a better coach likely to accomplish that same thing that you are admitting Gard is very close to?

Over the last 3 years they are 38-22 in a conference that has improved drastically overall. And all you're saying is we need to fix that small margin of error of connecting to the players better?

I no longer have any expectations for real success. It's been beaten out of me. When I did, I was told here that we simply can't expect top level talent to come to Wisconsin. That the system is what it is and it won't change. That I shouldn't worry about the NBA level talent leaving the state every year. If the expectation is so low, that one of the best programs in the B1G can't keep talent in its own back yard, then I don't see the point of caring about any of this.

Honestly, good for you. If you want to cheer for college sports and expect perennial glory and 1st round picks, I will tell you flat out that cheering for Wisconsin, Illinois, Marquette, Minnesota, Iowa...is not going to be fun. Maybe things will change when the paying of players becomes an above board thing, but otherwise you can cheer for UNC or whatever.

There will be a miraculously drawn coach like Izzo at MSU where you get a title and some higher level of success, but if you're hoping for that to happen easily or often, I'd say yeah, pick another program. By the way, Gard is winning roughly at the clip of Izzo these days.

And for the 10000000th time: college hoops is not an "in-state" recruiting game. Even if it is, Wisconsin is not a fertile recruiting ground in either sport. Look at all of the 5-star recruits that left when Bo Ryan went to back-to-back FInal 4s. They got Sam Dekker because he was a 3-star goofy white boy that blossomed into an NBA lottery pick and they held on for dear life at the end. Almost happened with Herro, but that's what it would take.

I cannot repeat enough times that if you want teams that try to get "NBA talent" but generally suck worse than UW, then the aforementioned Minnesota or Marquette are for you.

So yeah, you have very sane comments about the Brewers before the season. You do it for a summer distraction and if they're pretty good then it's just a bonus and you know their standing in the MLB payroll so don't expect more. I'd say if you're going to keep following Wisconsin sports, do the same. Wisconsin is never going to keep Kevon Looney in state just like the Brewers are not going to sign Gerrit Cole and Mookie Betts in free agency.

The fact that you keep expecting more is the biggest testament to how well-run their football and basketball programs are. Most other schools that are nowhere near the talent and don't pay their players have just given up completely.

And by the way, they still are having "real success." Just not national titles.

[ReasonablySober]

I cannot repeat enough times that if you want teams that try to get "NBA talent" but generally suck worse than UW, then the aforementioned Minnesota or Marquette are for you.

What I've always been dying to know is why you don't hold the Badgers to a higher standard? They ARE a better program than Minnesota, Iowa, Marquette, and Illinois. They DID go to back to back Final Fours. They've had more success than Michigan or Ohio State in this century.

If the system is the answer to why they can't attract talent relative to their success, then why not change the system?

[MissKhriddleton]

Nevermind.

[Kerb Hohl]

I cannot repeat enough times that if you want teams that try to get "NBA talent" but generally suck worse than UW, then the aforementioned Minnesota or Marquette are for you.

What I've always been dying to know is why you don't hold the Badgers to a higher standard? They ARE a better program than Minnesota, Iowa, Marquette, and Illinois. They DID go to back to back Final Fours. They've had more success than Michigan or Ohio State in this century.

If the system is the answer to why they can't attract talent relative to their success, then why not change the system?

Look, I can't help you anymore.

They **** had more success than those blueblood/historic schools literally using the blueprint Gard is trying to. I mean, come on, dude. Run a great system with the kids ranked around ~100 in the rankings and if you miraculously catch a 5 star and a 3-star turns into the Naismith winner, you can win the title.

Have you ever stepped back to think about why that is? They stay in their lane and aren't Minnesota because Minnesota thinks they can win with "NBA talent" and hiring of flashy coaches that will befriend the kids and play a more fun style than Ohio State.

The moment you try to out-flash UNC or even Michigan, you will get your ass kicked. You'll get their leftovers and likely have a **** Xs and Os coach to work with them.

[ReasonablySober]

I cannot repeat enough times that if you want teams that try to get "NBA talent" but generally suck worse than UW, then the aforementioned Minnesota or Marquette are for you.

What I've always been dying to know is why you don't hold the Badgers to a higher standard? They ARE a better program than Minnesota, Iowa, Marquette, and Illinois. They DID go to back to back Final Fours. They've had more success than Michigan or Ohio State in this century.

If the system is the answer to why they can't attract talent relative to their success, then why not change the system?

Look, I can't help you anymore.

They **** had more success than those blueblood/historic schools literally using the blueprint Gard is trying to. I mean, come on, dude. Run a great system with the kids ranked around ~100 in the rankings and if you miraculously catch a 5 star and a 3-star turns into the Naismith winner, you can win the title.

Have you ever stepped back to think about why that is? They stay in their lane and aren't Minnesota because Minnesota thinks they can win with "NBA talent" and hiring of flashy coaches that will befriend the kids and play a more fun style than Ohio State.

The moment you try to out-flash UNC or even Michigan, you will get your ass kicked. You'll get their leftovers and likely have a **** Xs and Os coach to work with them.

I guess I don't think it should take a miracle to get that five star player.

[DingleJerry]

The talent was what I've come to expect from the Wisconsin program for the last five years. The margin between success and failure is probably what it takes to lose the team for a few weeks.

OK, so now you are saying that all Gard has to improve is just work on his player connection skills to not "lose the team" and we're going to have a perennial Big 10 winner, even with modest talent?

Isn't that something you'd rather just keep and work on rather than go into the unknown trying to find a better coach likely to accomplish that same thing that you are admitting Gard is very close to?

Over the last 3 years they are 38-22 in a conference that has improved drastically overall. And all you're saying is we need to fix that small margin of error of connecting to the players better?

I no longer have any expectations for real success. It's been beaten out of me. When I did, I was told here that we simply can't expect top level talent to come to Wisconsin. That the system is what it is and it won't change. That I shouldn't worry about the NBA level talent leaving the state every year. If the expectation is so low, that one of the best programs in the B1G can't keep talent in its own back yard, then I don't see the point of caring about any of this.

I know you say this in a negative or mocking type of context. But really, you're right, that should be our expectations. Maintain solid tourney level teams consistently then hope for stars align here and there for occasional conf title and a lucky tourney run here and there. We are never going to pulling blue blood talent or play a style to attract them (and this might get worse with new paying players stuff). our expectations shouldn't drop to being ok with say MN level, if Gard lets that happen and we start missing the tourney more than make, heck even if they start missing say 1/3 of the time I think that's too far of a slip to accept. But other than the massively injured year where they missed the tourney he's matched what was going on the previous 15 years in a standard/normal year. Obviously hadn't gotten the stars aligned tourney run yet though like it took Bo 15 years to do, though who knows how 2020 goes with how hot that team was. And I'm generally expecting to miss the tourney this year, though it's probably 50/50. If he mishandles this likely tough year and is too negative with these young guys and they start resenting him too, that's probalby the beginning of the end.

Info like this on this kind of rift in the locker room though I take seriously and generally value their feedback and what they said. He clearly has work to do on changing approach or he won't have long term sustainable success. If we see similar stuff with the new recruits/kids and these locker room things persist he won't last.

I think we're also probably not putting enough into the likely scenario that he had an assistant coach actively undermining him to take his job. Still, it's on him, I don't deny that, but if someone is poisoning these kids heads against him he has quite an uphill battle to deal with. If you've dealt with a bad attitude person in any work scenario you can see how this happens.

In state recruiting in CBB isn't really a thing like in football, you're also right on that.

[Kerb Hohl]

What I've always been dying to know is why you don't hold the Badgers to a higher standard? They ARE a better program than Minnesota, Iowa, Marquette, and Illinois. They DID go to back to back Final Fours. They've had more success than Michigan or Ohio State in this century.

If the system is the answer to why they can't attract talent relative to their success, then why not change the system?

Look, I can't help you anymore.

They **** had more success than those blueblood/historic schools literally using the blueprint Gard is trying to. I mean, come on, dude. Run a great system with the kids ranked around ~100 in the rankings and if you miraculously catch a 5 star and a 3-star turns into the Naismith winner, you can win the title.

Have you ever stepped back to think about why that is? They stay in their lane and aren't Minnesota because Minnesota thinks they can win with "NBA talent" and hiring of flashy coaches that will befriend the kids and play a more fun style than Ohio State.

The moment you try to out-flash UNC or even Michigan, you will get your ass kicked. You'll get their leftovers and likely have a **** Xs and Os coach to work with them.

I guess I don't think it should take a miracle to get that five star player.

If Bo Ryan stayed on for 5 more years, we weren't going to be turning 4-star players away due to a roster full of 5 stars.

Hell, Tony Bennett's recruiting profile improved and (so far) they are not churning out first round picks and dominating, though yes, I'd have expected Bo to get a few better recruits.

I think Bo Ryan was working on Brevin Pritzl as a recruit when he retired.

The Badgers have had said success due to the "boring" system in football and basketball. Unfortunately, it's not something tailor made for pro prospects to want to play.

The moment you try to become a pro factory is the moment you realize you are in a climate where it is below freezing 100 days/year, you are not rich in history, you are not anywhere close to where all of the talent is (especially in football), and for better or worse, you aren't "illegally" paying players much.

I **** loved going to Madison but I can't imagine a 5-star quarterback (usually) or shooting guard is going to make his way from Atlanta to freezing weather in Madison where his parents can't see him play as much. He'll just go to UNC or Florida or any of the other 100 places that are closer and more familiar to them.

[chonestown]

There's an art to shtposting and right now the art is being sht upon.

[ReasonablySober]

Look, I can't help you anymore.

They **** had more success than those blueblood/historic schools literally using the blueprint Gard is trying to. I mean, come on, dude. Run a great system with the kids ranked around ~100 in the rankings and if you miraculously catch a 5 star and a 3-star turns into the Naismith winner, you can win the title.

Have you ever stepped back to think about why that is? They stay in their lane and aren't Minnesota because Minnesota thinks they can win with "NBA talent" and hiring of flashy coaches that will befriend the kids and play a more fun style than Ohio State.

The moment you try to out-flash UNC or even Michigan, you will get your ass kicked. You'll get their leftovers and likely have a **** Xs and Os coach to work with them.

I guess I don't think it should take a miracle to get that five star player.

If Bo Ryan stayed on for 5 more years, we weren't going to be turning 4-star players away due to a roster full of 5 stars.

Hell, Tony Bennett's recruiting profile improved and (so far) they are not churning out first round picks and dominating, though yes, I'd have expected Bo to get a few better recruits.

I think Bo Ryan was working on Brevin Pritzl as a recruit when he retired.

The Badgers have had said success due to the "boring" system in football and basketball. Unfortunately, it's not something tailor made for pro prospects to want to play.

The moment you try to become a pro factory is the moment you realize you are in a climate where it is below freezing 100 days/year, you are not rich in history, you are not anywhere close to where all of the talent is (especially in football), and for better or worse, you aren't "illegally" paying players much.

I **** loved going to Madison but I can't imagine a 5-star quarterback (usually) or shooting guard is going to make his way from Atlanta to freezing weather in Madison where his parents can't see him play as much. He'll just go to UNC or Florida or any of the other 100 places that are closer and more familiar to them.

Sounds like Gonzaga.

[DingleJerry]

I cannot repeat enough times that if you want teams that try to get "NBA talent" but generally suck worse than UW, then the aforementioned Minnesota or Marquette are for you.

What I've always been dying to know is why you don't hold the Badgers to a higher standard? They ARE a better program than Minnesota, Iowa, Marquette, and Illinois. They DID go to back to back Final Fours. They've had more success than Michigan or Ohio State in this century.

If the system is the answer to why they can't attract talent relative to their success, then why not change the system?

Why change the system that is outperforming those guys to the same system that isn't working for them? And again, they did have a tick up in recruiting these two classes. And they've generally gotten looser since Bo left on the quick shots and things like that, though I would be for a bit more loosening if these more athletic recruits we got are legit.

[MikeIsGood]

Nevermind.

I really feel this. Generally how I feel about this thread.