irish22022 wrote:I hope you guys are right that we keep cam. Unfortunately I don't remember screen names well enough to match up the people who think we'll get cam for a reasonable deal and the people who really wanted javel mcgee. I'm sure there's at least 1 of you, though.
I agree that looking a couple years ahead CamJo is a likely defector. I really really like his game. But alas, James Jones found him, and he can find others. I still have a good feeling about Jalen Smith.
Ayton and booker are still so young, it's easy to forget they're still gonna get better.
Keep in mind CP3 will come off the books sometime. We don't have to worry about losing these guys necessarily. Same with Saric and Crowder in 2 years when CamJo is up for a new deal.
Barkley6 wrote:I see our situation right now very similarly to the 2011-12 OKC Thunder.
That team had KD, Harden, Westbrook, Ibaka and Reggie Jackson.
They SHOULD have won multiple championships, but they didn't keep them together. We've got a kind of similar situation where we have some younger guys coming into their own (Ayton, Bridges, CamJo, Payne) and I think we need to make sure we lock them up, because all of those guys genuinely have a chance to become star players.
We could have our OWN super team that we built through the draft. Book is already an All-Star. Payne could easily be 6MOTY next season. Ayton is showing he's one of the best 2 way bigs in the league. Bridges could be the next Kawhi, and will probably be All-Defense next year. CamJo is only in his second year and already looks mature and like he could potentially become a TJ Warren type scorer with better defense.
We gotta keep that group together, or we'll be wondering what could have been. If this was a team where some of these guys were 29-31 and up for their next big contract, I'd say okay we need to think about long term investment and the future.
But this group IS the future, they're young, hungry and extremely talented. Pay them their f***ing money.
Pretty sure I was the first person round these parts to advocate a max for Ayton, while others were talking about a max for Bridges. Bridges is so critical to this team, but I don't feel he's quite worth $20 mil. I might pay that much just because I agree we've got to keep this group together, though I think $18 (or even $16) is more appropriate.
Simply put, I don't think Bridges has Kawhi potential. I acknowledge that he's already one of the most efficient scorers in the history of the game (that's right, look it up). But that's primarily because almost all his shots are catch-and-shoot threes, dunks and layups. He has a solid mid-range game now, but he can't create his own shots or create for others. He doesn't rebound. If he dribbles the ball before he shoots the three, it doesn't go in. He's amazing at what he does, and he's an iron man, which is a huge plus, but Kawhi potential? No way. He'll never get those boards. I hope he continues to develop offensively, but I just don't see the possibility for that kind of progression.
When you're looking at luxury tax every year til the end of this era, every million dollars you save is millions more you're not paying in tax. We have to save where we can. I'm hoping Bridges would regard $18 mil ($16? Please?) as fair, because if another team were to sign him for more than that, surely they would expect more production than 13p, 3r, 2a, 1s and 1b.
bwgood77 wrote:JJ was in a way comparable to Bridges...stepped his game up in 04-05 on offense, shooting like 47% from 3, but should have been extended the summer before...for a lot less before deserving a max or near max after that season.
We could have been contenders for years. As good as Diaw was, Johnson was better. We may have ended up with Diaw anyway, especially if we never signed Q...Hawks didn't seem to be very high on Diaw and we liked him. Joe Johnson was a big guard who could handle, defend and hit 3s at an absurd clip in that offense.
Joe showed plenty of 1-on-1 prowess with us before we let him go. He could create, board, and was much bigger than bridges. He had so much more to offer on offense that I don't really find the comparison apt.
Bridges has shown he can create his own shot (did it against LeBron early in the season) but he is smart with his choices allowing others to assist him on high % shots for now. He rarely has the need to create lesser efficiency shots.
And he without a doubt can create for others which you can see in his 8 assist games and stuff. I think you vastly underrate his skill set. He has also talked about continuing to work on getting better at creating his own offense.
Yes, JJ was more of an offensive guy and Bridges defensive but what I mean is don't undervalue these guys early in their careers because in hindsight it will probably look stupid. If we haggle over Bridges for a couple million a year like we did with Johnson (though that was less than $1 million a year) or OKC did with Harden people will be asking for years "why did we break up that core?" I wouldn't be surprised if people ended up saying "they ended up letting the best of the 3 go, looking back" like Harden may be. Though I think any of the 3 could end up the best of the 3...most likely Booker but not out of question either of the other two can.
But it's clear we vastly differ on Bridges' value to the team.
I would be shocked if we couldn't come to an extension agreement with Bridges. He was a guy we went out of our way to bring to Phoenix using significant draft capital (two 1sts) and I'm confident Sarver would've signed off on that. And more importantly, he's basically developed into exactly the player I think we had hoped he would be and with likely more to come.
You can get rid of Saric, you can get rid of Crowder, hell you might even get away with not resigning Cam but Bridges is critical to the success of this team now and going forward. I'm a bit more conservative when it comes to projecting his shot creation abilities (I cringe a little when I see Kawhi get brought up) but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he could develop into a solid 3rd option.
irish22022 wrote:Not saying I don't love our team because I do. But the money isn't there to sign all these guys long term, and frankly, we could stand to get a little better too. We are playing some less than full strength teams and while that isn't our fault, it is the case.
If bridges wants 25 mil a year and ayton wants the max, we are in real trouble in terms of keeping these guys. Guys who will take the BAE or minimum can stay. But no more jevon carter contracts. We don't have the cash.
CP 3/100 is fine, but it'll need to be frontloaded. And c'mon guys, cam Payne isn't playing for under 10 mil next season.
You can't frontload much. Maybe something like 35/33/31. Max raises/decreases are 8% a year or so.
Need to keep Ayton and Bridges. Even in a poll of who would you keep after another year...Bridges or Paul, people here voted like 25-1 Bridges over Paul.
You get rid of the guys who are not real differences. Sure Saric has looked better but a couple nights ago is what he is getting paid for. Or maybe he still underperforms the contract a ton. Now would be a good time to trade him...but more likely next summer when extensions kick in with one more year left on his contract. I know Monty loves him so who knows?
I hope Paul picks up his option. Then we look at next year. I think he'd still want to stay but we have no idea what he will look like then or his health either, but more importantly, if we have said to him "hey, instead of 3/90 now) how about you pick up $45 option and sign for 22.5 per the next two years next offseason (declining at like 23.5 to 21.5)? Same total dollar amount. Or if it's 3/100 same deal....pick up option and get avg of $27.5 for year for two, declining.
I agree about saric. He's got more value than Carter, who is also dead money (saric less so). It's always the dream to package them both, even if it means taking it on the chin for a year with an expiring contract. Don't know who is around, but if there's a 12 million dollar scrub who's expiring, that's where I'd look. Isn't baynes expiring?
As for CP, I'd love him to take the nudge deal. But I don't think he'd opt in to bet on his health like that. Even though is he very healthy. A 3 year deal for a 36 year old is kind of the golden goose
2022 expirings we could maybe trade them for to give us cap relief when the extensions kick in....
I don't think Dallas needs another big, but Josh Richardson hasn't worked well with Doncic.
Then Thaddeus Young..though they probably want to keep him, Tristan Thompson, Montrezl Harrell. Jeremy Lamb, Taurean Prince. Most of the better names seem unrealistic.
Barkley6 wrote: What backup PG contract from the last few years is going to be used as the model for Payne? No backup point not named Jordan Clarkson has gotten a multiyear deal for over about $9m/per in the last few seasons. Teams use the market, and previous contracts to determine player value. It would be very our of character for anyone to come and offer Payne more than the top end of the backup PG market at this point.
I think he'll get close to $10m/per, but I also think the Suns are more than happy to pay him that.
Unless some team thinks he can be a starter from Day 1 (which would be wild considering the sample size of him starting, is I think 3 games), he'll get $10million or less.
Cam Payne will absolutely get a starting job if he wants one. This is the path for backups. Bledsoe did the same thing. Rozier, too. An upstart team like the Knicks will be happy to pay him. He'll be a cheap starter at 14 mil a year.
There are not a lot of starting jobs...most rebuilding teams he maybe could but they've drafted PGs or are developing two on rookie contracts and probably don't want to add another to put them in the way.
Bulls if they had cap space could be a possiblity.
Don't feel like he'd go back to an org that disrespected him like this lol I feel like he is a prideful guy and Bulls would have to lay out a FAT offer he can't refuse for him to go back. Probably not worth going out of their way to clear space to sign a guy they said wasn't an NBA player just a few short years ago.
We will keep Payne. I think it's a near certainty. I think we'd get rid of anyone else before him outside of the 4 you mention and maybe Cam.
He is very valuable.
We also gave him his chance and he loves it in Phx and on this team unless someone vastly overpays him, which is doubtful given all the PGs on the market.
Now I know we have his early bird rights. Someone tweeted that we have those right and can pay him his market value of $10-11 million a year...it was Bobby Marks I think. Was he saying that is the max we could pay him or just that we can pay him market?
And if it is max, can other teams pay more, and if so, why? Not necessarily asking either of you this question, but anyone who may have an answer.
That's the max we can pay him, which happens to be close to the market if not possibly a little under. Other teams can definitely pay more for him although I'm not sure which teams that might be. Teams could pay a player with the Early Bird Rights up to $10,047,450 for this season so next season Cam would be looking at probably just under $11m starting.
Payne's probably not viewed as more valuable than Morris or Graham, though I guess teams may get high on him since he is on the big stage now. But those guys are more proven long term. Seems like teams might go after them first.
But teams that want a legit starting PG to take the next step like the Knicks may want Lowry. Then there is Schroder and Ball.
We will keep Payne. I think it's a near certainty. I think we'd get rid of anyone else before him outside of the 4 you mention and maybe Cam.
He is very valuable.
We also gave him his chance and he loves it in Phx and on this team unless someone vastly overpays him, which is doubtful given all the PGs on the market.
Now I know we have his early bird rights. Someone tweeted that we have those right and can pay him his market value of $10-11 million a year...it was Bobby Marks I think. Was he saying that is the max we could pay him or just that we can pay him market?
And if it is max, can other teams pay more, and if so, why? Not necessarily asking either of you this question, but anyone who may have an answer.
That's the max we can pay him, which happens to be close to the market if not possibly a little under. Other teams can definitely pay more for him although I'm not sure which teams that might be. Teams could pay a player with the Early Bird Rights up to $10,047,450 for this season so next season Cam would be looking at probably just under $11m starting.
I think if we had cap space we could pay him more, just like any other team with space could pay him more... but since we're over the cap we only have these limited bird rights.
With a PG heavy league, do you see someone offer Cam 10mil + per year, with Schroeder, Reggie Jackson etc all hitting the market? What those guys get may dictate what Cam gets
irish22022 wrote: Cam Payne will absolutely get a starting job if he wants one. This is the path for backups. Bledsoe did the same thing. Rozier, too. An upstart team like the Knicks will be happy to pay him. He'll be a cheap starter at 14 mil a year.
There are not a lot of starting jobs...most rebuilding teams he maybe could but they've drafted PGs or are developing two on rookie contracts and probably don't want to add another to put them in the way.
Bulls if they had cap space could be a possiblity.
Don't feel like he'd go back to an org that disrespected him like this lol I feel like he is a prideful guy and Bulls would have to lay out a FAT offer he can't refuse for him to go back. Probably not worth going out of their way to clear space to sign a guy they said wasn't an NBA player just a few short years ago.
I would love to know if this Bulls official is still in the league.
irish22022 wrote:Not saying I don't love our team because I do. But the money isn't there to sign all these guys long term, and frankly, we could stand to get a little better too. We are playing some less than full strength teams and while that isn't our fault, it is the case.
If bridges wants 25 mil a year and ayton wants the max, we are in real trouble in terms of keeping these guys. Guys who will take the BAE or minimum can stay. But no more jevon carter contracts. We don't have the cash.
CP 3/100 is fine, but it'll need to be frontloaded. And c'mon guys, cam Payne isn't playing for under 10 mil next season.
You can't frontload much. Maybe something like 35/33/31. Max raises/decreases are 8% a year or so.
Need to keep Ayton and Bridges. Even in a poll of who would you keep after another year...Bridges or Paul, people here voted like 25-1 Bridges over Paul.
You get rid of the guys who are not real differences. Sure Saric has looked better but a couple nights ago is what he is getting paid for. Or maybe he still underperforms the contract a ton. Now would be a good time to trade him...but more likely next summer when extensions kick in with one more year left on his contract. I know Monty loves him so who knows?
I hope Paul picks up his option. Then we look at next year. I think he'd still want to stay but we have no idea what he will look like then or his health either, but more importantly, if we have said to him "hey, instead of 3/90 now) how about you pick up $45 option and sign for 22.5 per the next two years next offseason (declining at like 23.5 to 21.5)? Same total dollar amount. Or if it's 3/100 same deal....pick up option and get avg of $27.5 for year for two, declining.
I agree about saric. He's got more value than Carter, who is also dead money (saric less so). It's always the dream to package them both, even if it means taking it on the chin for a year with an expiring contract. Don't know who is around, but if there's a 12 million dollar scrub who's expiring, that's where I'd look. Isn't baynes expiring?
As for CP, I'd love him to take the nudge deal. But I don't think he'd opt in to bet on his health like that. Even though is he very healthy. A 3 year deal for a 36 year old is kind of the golden goose
It's always the dream to package them both, even if it means taking it on the chin for a year with an expiring contract. Don't know who is around, but if there's a 12 million dollar scrub who's expiring, that's where I'd look. Isn't baynes expiring?
37- Draft McBride or Hyland perhaps? 42- Draft Neemias Queta or Jay Huff or Charles Bassey?
* If we just trade Saric and keep Carter for a different trade ( Minnesota has interest apparently for Okogie ( 4 million expiring). https://fanspo.com/nba/s/suns/trades/rrAELsQUDjUXjg/wolves-get-carter .........Then we'd just be doing Saric for Joseph and the 37. In that scenario we keep the 29th pick. And acquire the 37th. 29- Draft JT Thor or Trey Murphy ( Bridges or Cam insurance)???
37- Draft a guard? Any of McBride/ Jason Preston/ DJ Carton / DJ Steward perhaps? ** Undrafted GLeague development stash options: Ibou Badji, EJ Onu, Moussa Cisse, Szndro Mamukelashvili!!! We clear 12 million or more by next summer. But Joseph gives us a competent defensive backup to Paul, And we resign Payne using his bird rights and make him our Clarkson/ Lou Williams 6th man microwave scorer off the bench. *** Bonus is that one of Thor, Murphy 3rd or Herbert Jones could replace Crowder once his contract expires for much cheaper! Giving us further cap flexibility as needed.
Gonna request that folks keep the off-season speculation and chatter to a minimum, please?
Not trying to censor anyone, but I just think we're on a really special run right now. Let's be present in it. There will be more than enough time to tinker the roster and lock our main guys in.
DRK wrote:With a PG heavy league, do you see someone offer Cam 10mil + per year, with Schroeder, Reggie Jackson etc all hitting the market? What those guys get may dictate what Cam gets
He's better than German Rondo and younger than both of those guys. You can easily make a case that he'd get the biggest offer.
Honestly if Kawhi stays, then who is the biggest FA this summer? Derozan and Lowry are good but Cam is younger than both of them. I'd say probably either Collins or Ball, but Cam has shot up that list of "Best 2021 FAs" I think.
We're not getting him back at a discount. This is his best chance to strike it rich and land a starters gig.
DRK wrote:With a PG heavy league, do you see someone offer Cam 10mil + per year, with Schroeder, Reggie Jackson etc all hitting the market? What those guys get may dictate what Cam gets
He's better than German Rondo and younger than both of those guys. You can easily make a case that he'd get the biggest offer.
Honestly if Kawhi stays, then who is the biggest FA this summer? Derozan and Lowry are good but Cam is younger than both of them. I'd say probably either Collins or Ball, but Cam has shot up that list of "Best 2021 FAs" I think.
We're not getting him back at a discount. This is his best chance to strike it rich and land a starters gig.
Well he had one good game, so I just don't think GMs are going to cream their shorts over that. I like Cam a lot, was talking him up during the bubble, and justified not taking Hal, because of the potential and bubble play, but I just don't think he will be as high on people's FA lists. But who knows. If he can come back quickly, and build off what he did in that one game, maybe he gets bigger money. I just don't think he will get more than $10mi, and we can offer him that to stay with early Bird rights.
Mavs are hiring Kidd and the Nike guy - Nico per Tim MacMahon of ESPN Dallas
Mavs fan on twitter are already speculating on Lillard to Dallas as : Lillard is getting "antsy" per reports he wanted Kidd to coach in Portland and he likes the Nike guy Nico
Mavs guy on twitter had a trade of KP, Brunson, a few 1st rounders and than pick swaps
DRK wrote:With a PG heavy league, do you see someone offer Cam 10mil + per year, with Schroeder, Reggie Jackson etc all hitting the market? What those guys get may dictate what Cam gets
He's better than German Rondo and younger than both of those guys. You can easily make a case that he'd get the biggest offer.
Honestly if Kawhi stays, then who is the biggest FA this summer? Derozan and Lowry are good but Cam is younger than both of them. I'd say probably either Collins or Ball, but Cam has shot up that list of "Best 2021 FAs" I think.
We're not getting him back at a discount. This is his best chance to strike it rich and land a starters gig.
Well he had one good game, so I just don't think GMs are going to cream their shorts over that. I like Cam a lot, was talking him up during the bubble, and justified not taking Hal, because of the potential and bubble play, but I just don't think he will be as high on people's FA lists. But who knows. If he can come back quickly, and build off what he did in that one game, maybe he gets bigger money. I just don't think he will get more than $10mi, and we can offer him that to stay with early Bird rights.
This is based off him continuing his current path of blowing by guys while putting up 6+ assist games with few turnover games.
DRK wrote:With a PG heavy league, do you see someone offer Cam 10mil + per year, with Schroeder, Reggie Jackson etc all hitting the market? What those guys get may dictate what Cam gets
He's better than German Rondo and younger than both of those guys. You can easily make a case that he'd get the biggest offer.
Honestly if Kawhi stays, then who is the biggest FA this summer? Derozan and Lowry are good but Cam is younger than both of them. I'd say probably either Collins or Ball, but Cam has shot up that list of "Best 2021 FAs" I think.
We're not getting him back at a discount. This is his best chance to strike it rich and land a starters gig.
Well he had one good game, so I just don't think GMs are going to cream their shorts over that. I like Cam a lot, was talking him up during the bubble, and justified not taking Hal, because of the potential and bubble play, but I just don't think he will be as high on people's FA lists. But who knows. If he can come back quickly, and build off what he did in that one game, maybe he gets bigger money. I just don't think he will get more than $10mi, and we can offer him that to stay with early Bird rights.
Yeah, we have no idea, and we are looking at if from a biased perspective. Cam had an amazing year, and probably had a better 3pt % than any of those guys and a better ast/to ratio than any of those other free agents. And he is extremely quick and can get to the rim.
However, plenty of GMs will be wary after one good season following a lot of bad ones when others are more proven long term. They could feel he is in the perfect situation.
Unless someone can point out a team that would really pay him, and want to take the risk on a young guy (like I don't know that a team like NY or Dallas wanting to take the next step would take that risk over some of the others), I can't see him making a lot.
And then a lot of PGs coming out in the draft so rebuilding teams will go with their young rookie contract guys. You would have to think of mid tier teams and many of them are set at PG (Memphis, Charlotte, etc).
Many could only offer the MLE as well.
Plus I think he would lean heavily toward wanting to say rather than taking a little more or getting that starting job (which I don't see him getting after 1 year of playing well).
Dallas and NY are rumored to want to go after Paul, so a second option to them will likely be Lowry. Then you have the other more proven guys like Ball, Schroder, Graham.
Often people throw out "he will get a starting job" or something without thinking of what team do you think would and how many have many PGs and then the FAs who are almost certain to leave given their circumstances of a team's direction or a team being loaded with guards or teams behing over the cap only able to offer the MLE.
BobbieL wrote:Mavs are hiring Kidd and the Nike guy - Nico per Tim MacMahon of ESPN Dallas
Mavs fan on twitter are already speculating on Lillard to Dallas as : Lillard is getting "antsy" per reports he wanted Kidd to coach in Portland and he likes the Nike guy Nico
Mavs guy on twitter had a trade of KP, Brunson, a few 1st rounders and than pick swaps
For me - that doesn't seem very much for Lillard.
That seems like a complete rebuild. Why not take Simmons back if that is the best offer? They should be able to get Simmons and a pick or 2. Nurkic can already be a stretch 5 having hit the 3 at 40%.
Simmons with CJ, Powell, Covington, and Nurkic is great defensively and surrounds Simmons with shooters.
BobbieL wrote:Mavs are hiring Kidd and the Nike guy - Nico per Tim MacMahon of ESPN Dallas
Mavs fan on twitter are already speculating on Lillard to Dallas as : Lillard is getting "antsy" per reports he wanted Kidd to coach in Portland and he likes the Nike guy Nico
Mavs guy on twitter had a trade of KP, Brunson, a few 1st rounders and than pick swaps
For me - that doesn't seem very much for Lillard.
That seems like a complete rebuild. Why not take Simmons back if that is the best offer? They should be able to get Simmons and a pick or 2. Nurkic can already be a stretch 5 having hit the 3 at 40%.
Simmons with CJ, Powell, Covington, and Nurkic is great defensively and surrounds Simmons with shooters.
I was just quoting some Mavs fan on twitter trying to read tea leaves and talk himself into the Mavs getting Dame
I still think CJ McCallum for Simmons could be a trade both teams make. Granted, I am sure the Sixers would also take Lillard .
