Image ImageImage Image

Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story

Moderators: HomoSapien, Ice Man, dougthonus, Michael Jackson, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10

TheStig
RealGM
Posts: 14,795
And1: 3,973
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
Location: Get rid of GarPaxDorf

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#141 » by TheStig » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:51 pm

Chi town wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:
Chi town wrote:
I agree with this.

Also think Pip is a byproduct of what he learned from Jordan. The Pip we know wouldn't have been that player without being forced into greatness from the demands of Jordan.


Not to side track this discussion, but I never really liked the discussion when it pertains to how Pippen wouldn't have been Pippen if it wasn't for Jordan, whilst possible, I think Pippen also needs to be given credit for Jordan being Jordan also. I can't remember where I read it, it could have been the Jordan rules, but the story goes that Pippen was really good with his left hand, especially around the basket, and Jordan learned how to better use his left hand from Pippen. Not to mention, Jordan also had the benefit of playing against one of the best wing defenders of all time in Pippen on a regular basis in practice.

Point being, without being there to witness those two on a daily basis, I think they both benefitted from having each other to push and elevate their games.


Agreed. Pippen def helped Jordan as well. I just think Jordan helped shape Pippen more.

I agree 100%.
User avatar
TheJordanRule
Veteran
Posts: 2,996
And1: 1,377
Joined: Jan 27, 2014

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#142 » by TheJordanRule » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:57 pm

Chi town wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:
Chi town wrote:
I agree with this.

Also think Pip is a byproduct of what he learned from Jordan. The Pip we know wouldn't have been that player without being forced into greatness from the demands of Jordan.


Not to side track this discussion, but I never really liked the discussion when it pertains to how Pippen wouldn't have been Pippen if it wasn't for Jordan, whilst possible, I think Pippen also needs to be given credit for Jordan being Jordan also. I can't remember where I read it, it could have been the Jordan rules, but the story goes that Pippen was really good with his left hand, especially around the basket, and Jordan learned how to better use his left hand from Pippen. Not to mention, Jordan also had the benefit of playing against one of the best wing defenders of all time in Pippen on a regular basis in practice.

Point being, without being there to witness those two on a daily basis, I think they both benefitted from having each other to push and elevate their games.


Agreed. Pippen def helped Jordan as well. I just think Jordan helped shape Pippen more.


All of this "Jordan turned Pippen into what he was" stuff is based on what? Were you watching daily videos of Jordan and Pippen in practice or something? These are baseless assumptions. What we do know is that Jordan alienated himself from a large number of his teammates due to his out of control behavior and toxic mindset. He wasn't the "development" guy, he was the destruction guy. He mentally broke his own draft picks and teammates as a GM during his time with the Wiz because that leftover toxicity was still so ingrained. Even after the documentary that Jordan himself released, which took a soft look at his narcissistic personality disorder, I don't think a lot of you understand that he was as destructive off the court as he was magnificent on it. Don't get me wrong, I love the dude on court, and the way he marketed himself was really smart. I still love that song "If I Could Be Like Mike" because it takes me back to my childhood. But the idea that he was some type of player development guru has been proven demonstrably false. It's not a coincidence that guys hated playing with him, and that he's been trash as a GM.
User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 70,938
And1: 36,081
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#143 » by DuckIII » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:02 pm

TheJordanRule wrote:
Chi town wrote:
kulaz3000 wrote:
Not to side track this discussion, but I never really liked the discussion when it pertains to how Pippen wouldn't have been Pippen if it wasn't for Jordan, whilst possible, I think Pippen also needs to be given credit for Jordan being Jordan also. I can't remember where I read it, it could have been the Jordan rules, but the story goes that Pippen was really good with his left hand, especially around the basket, and Jordan learned how to better use his left hand from Pippen. Not to mention, Jordan also had the benefit of playing against one of the best wing defenders of all time in Pippen on a regular basis in practice.

Point being, without being there to witness those two on a daily basis, I think they both benefitted from having each other to push and elevate their games.


Agreed. Pippen def helped Jordan as well. I just think Jordan helped shape Pippen more.


All of this "Jordan turned Pippen into what he was" stuff is based on what? Were you watching daily videos of Jordan and Pippen in practice or something? These are baseless assumptions. What we do know is that Jordan alienated himself from a large number of his teammates due to his out of control behavior and toxic mindset. He wasn't the "development" guy, he was the destruction guy. He mentally broke his own draft picks and teammates as a GM during his time with the Wiz because that leftover toxicity was still so ingrained. Even after the documentary that Jordan himself released, which took a soft look at his narcissistic personality disorder, I don't think a lot of you understand that he was as destructive off the court as he was magnificent on it. Don't get me wrong, I love the dude on court, and the way he marketed himself was really smart. I still love that song "If I Could Be Like Mike" because it takes me back to my childhood. But the idea that he was some type of player development guru has been proven demonstrably false. It's not a coincidence that guys hated playing with him, and that he's been trash as a GM.


Like you, I’m a critic of MJ “the person.” And what you wrote is all accurate. MJ is a very flawed person. Major flaws.

The issue here though is that Phil, Tex and Pippen himself have all credited MJ’s tyrannical approach to pushing teammates as being instrumental to Pip’s development.

Maybe Pip’s book will paint it in a different light though.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 37,024
And1: 29,953
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#144 » by HomoSapien » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:06 pm

This clip feels appropriate for this section of the thread:

ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 21,806
And1: 8,725
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#145 » by Stratmaster » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:57 pm

HomoSapien wrote:This clip feels appropriate for this section of the thread:



He is such a dick lol. "You don't agree with me, that's cos you never won anything."

There are all kinds of uber successful people and leaders in this world who aren't tyrannical pricks. The fact that he thinks that is the only way to win tells you a lot.

Still the greatest basketball player of all time though :)
User avatar
kulaz3000
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 42,469
And1: 24,622
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#146 » by kulaz3000 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:17 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:This clip feels appropriate for this section of the thread:



He is such a dick lol. "You don't agree with me, that's cos you never won anything."

There are all kinds of uber successful people and leaders in this world who aren't tyrannical pricks. The fact that he thinks that is the only way to win tells you a lot.

Still the greatest basketball player of all time though :)


Yeah, but he has never shied away from the fact that he was a prick though. Be I'll give him credit for the fact that he was one of the most charming and professional athletes there ever was, as far as dealing with the media and fans go, but behind closed doors in practice and working on his game, he was clearly a lunatic.
Why so serious?
dice
RealGM
Posts: 43,886
And1: 12,904
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#147 » by dice » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:02 am

Stratmaster wrote:
HomoSapien wrote:This clip feels appropriate for this section of the thread:



He is such a dick lol. "You don't agree with me, that's cos you never won anything."

There are all kinds of uber successful people and leaders in this world who aren't tyrannical pricks. The fact that he thinks that is the only way to win tells you a lot.

Still the greatest basketball player of all time though :)

that's not exactly what he said. he's more saying that you would view his domineering style differently if you had been his teammate and had a lot of success with it. i don't think he's saying it's the only way to win
God help Ukraine
God help those fleeing misery to come here
God help the Middle East
God help the climate
God help US health care
bledredwine
RealGM
Posts: 14,419
And1: 5,608
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
   

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#148 » by bledredwine » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:08 am

dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:Pippen was so flakey and mentally weak at times. Super talented but I don't think he would have ever been as good without MJ pushing his butt everyday. MJ made Pip IMHO. He would have been just a guy or above average starter.


If Pippen was flakey and mentally weak, then a guy like Jordan would have had a negative impact on his career not a positive one. He would have needed someone more nurturing. Mentally weak people don't become mentally strong by being beaten up and having someone drive them like that.

I don't think Jordan made Pippen even remotely, and I think you might be right that he was mentally weak but I think you saw him have his best season ever as soon as Jordan was gone, and he might have done better without him overall. At any rate, it doesn't really matter what could have/might have happened. Jordan was clearly the superstar, Pippen was clearly a tier below him and probably below other top guys in the league as well.



Pippen has already attributed his defensive improvement to having to guard Michael constantly in practice in his earlier years.

How does that and having the most perfectionist and greatest competitor of the sport on your team not mold you?

Aside from that, Jordan held everyone on the court (and in practice) to ridiculously high standards, so that even a small defensive lapse was yelled at, for better or for worse (better for winning). Of course that mentality changed Scottie’s.
LeBron has a 17.8% field goal percentage and a 12.5% 3-point percentage in clutch situations, and also made 20 of 116 game winning/tying shots in 4th/OT during his career :wink:
User avatar
DanChee33
Junior
Posts: 283
And1: 28
Joined: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Where dunking on Pat happened

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#149 » by DanChee33 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:37 am

TheStig wrote:...People bring up 93-94. But by 94-95 they were barely .500 before mj came back.


Guess because Horace left the team. By then our team was pretty weak. That counts isn't it?
Time has come...
The Box Office
Starter
Posts: 2,487
And1: 1,437
Joined: Jun 14, 2016

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#150 » by The Box Office » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:37 pm

I'm fine with Scottie Pippen telling his side. I want to read this. Should be interesting.
bledredwine
RealGM
Posts: 14,419
And1: 5,608
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
   

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#151 » by bledredwine » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:40 pm

This is why Pippen's polarizing: He is a fantastic player but his skillset was Taylor-made to be a supplementary option. He also played along the greatest offensive force the league has seen. You'll think of 1994, without thinking of 1995 as a gut-reaction, but keep reading to understand.

Pippen is overrated because Jordan often had to carry the Bulls on his back, and underrated because he still contributed so much to the team's success. Still, there are so many false agenda-driven narratives regarding Pippen's actual dominance of the game.

Anyone who watched the finals and remembers them knows how often Jordan had to carry the load. In 1996 and 1998 finals, Pippen averaged 15.7 points per game in series where the Bulls badly needed buckets. That was Pippen's weakness. The polarizing aspect is that Pippen was still a top 8-10 player in the league, an excellent all-around player (all-star) and contributed in multiple ways to the team's success.

Agenda Example:
Fans adhering to the idea that Pippen served as Jordan’s peer often cite aggregate finals stats, arguing that during the Bulls two three-peats, Pippen led the Bulls in assists, rebounds, steals and blocks. Wrong.

Despite being inaccurate– Jordan collected two more assists than Pippen across the Bulls’ six finals appearances and also outscored his All-Star teammate by 510 points, almost doubling Pippen’s scoring output.

Why is Pippen sometimes overlooked?

Important sentence - No one in the history of the league has had to carry the scoring load like Michael Jordan (playoffs/finals tournament). The stats confirm this, the eye-test confirms this. You guys witnessed Durant with a couple of excellent carrying games and how exciting that is. Well, that's a taste of what Jordan had to consistently do quite often, with Scottie alongside him, STRICTLY on the offensive end (Scottie's a great dynamic offensive player and phenomenal defender, but not an automatic bucket). That's why Scottie is so polarizing and sometimes downplayed, even by players like Magic, Isiah, Barkley, etc at the time. Jordan was the feared one. Scottie was 2nd fiddle, like Stockton, and damned good at it. At age 32-34, when Jordan was winning all sorts of accolades, Pippen in his career regressed to an afterthought. He was a 2nd option player, period.

NOW, this doesn't mean that Pippen wasn't a huge contributor to the game. It doesn't mean that he's not a top 50 player of all time. But top 5 player like some people act? Nope. He never was. So Pippen is, in a sense, underrated due to Jordan's dominance, but also overrated by revisionist posters who like to act that he somehow was capable of consistently carrying a team (No one talks about 95 when the Pip-led Bulls were barely over 500, the year after 94?).

There's the debate to Scottie being underrated or overrated. It's polarizing, understandably.
As time goes on, people tend to overrate him more and more. Scottie's one of the best 2nd options of all time, and not a 1st option. He's an excellent, dynamic player who could do everything, but not an automatic scorer, which was so vital, especially in the 90s when defense clamped down. You know who else has these attributes? John Stockton. He wasn't a batman, but is a top 50 player of all time and instrumental to the Jazz's success. Neither were considered top 5-7 players in the league, ever, really.

I know what you're thinking. What about 1994? OK... what about 1995 though? A pip-led Bulls were barely over .500, at 34-30, then finished with .800 as soon as rusty Jordan was added for the last 18 games. And then 1996 when the Bulls with Jordan revived went 72-10. Is it not possible that Pippen needed Jordan as well? :) With Jordan added, they went from 34-30 to 86-16
Supporting this stance is the fact that the Bulls differently in 1994 wasn't nearly as great as their record, showing that they had overachieved in a lot of close 2-3 point games.

Pippen is overlooked because to win championships, teams need ceiling raisers. These are your Larry Birds, your peak Steph's, Jordans, etc. 2015 Steph was unbelievable and Golden State finished 73-10. He had plenty of support, but no way does Golden have that type of consistency without Steph's consistent dominance. Same is said of Jordan - goat level offense and consistency equals goat-level win consistency. As for Pippen? He never had scoring consistency, which was his one fault, and it's an important one.


These 7 guys were better and considered so every single year-
Jordan
Hakeem
Robinson
Shaq
Barkley
Malone
Ewing

Then you have guys who were either slightly more dynamic
Stockton
Penny
Hill

or unstoppable down to the wire
Miller

Which puts Pippen at somewhere around the 10th best in the league range, around Miller/Penny, which is about right. No Pippen, no championships.
By most accounts, Scottie was an excellent player but players like Chuck, Isiah, Magic, Malone etc. have stated very much that Scottie was a second option or have even made statements like "When you're talking about the Bulls, you're only really talking about Michael Jordan. That's why we think our team would win" (Magic and Isiah speaking during 93 finals). That gives you an idea of how much Jordan actually carried the Bulls' offensive load... yet people act like Pippen was some sort of savant on that end... which he was not. In 1999, when Pippen was on the Rockets, he was clear 3rd fiddle to Hakeem and Chuck, who entered the league earlier.

Imagine seeing Durant more consistently putting up those 40-50 point games. Jordan had to do that frequently. That's why Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time. When the Bulls went dry, they needed that from him. He has 5 40+ point series averages, which is insane. This is why Pippen is underrated, and also overrated. He was never dominant like Jordan to winning the unwinnable, but his contributions on both ends of the court were valuable.

I'm sure that a couple posters here will debate a few of those names listed above as being somehow worse than Pippen, but that would be revisionist history because at the time, it was common knowledge among players and coaches in the league. No, Pippen was never considered better than the offensive force that was Chuck. No, he wasn't nearly the two-way player that Hakeem, Robinson, or even Ewing were. Those guys all had a higher ceiling-raising potential and needed supporting casts for it.
Point blank - Scottie was never discussed as a top five player unless it was his MVP'ish season (please link me if he was... I haven't seen it once). Yes, he had a nice MVP run and an excellent peak season. But that does not happen consistently. Once again, why doesn't anyone talk about the next season, when the Bulls were barely over .500 with Pippen 64 games into the season? Rusty Jordan came back and the Bulls record hovers around .800 over the last 18 games. Next season, they go 72-10. No one mentions this. Why? Simply because of the stance that they are taking. If Pippen consistently did that, then it would be another story altogether.



OK, how about DEFENSE?
Pippen's one of the best defensive players ever, period.....but people on realm (with obvious agendas) like to pretend that he's on a different caliber than Jordan. Contemporary players (Magic, Barkley, Shaq, Hakeem) would tell you how foolish that is and many players stated that Jordan was the best player on both ends (I disagree and believe Hakeem was better). Regardless, it is re-writing history at it's finest. Don't believe me?
Jordan finished higher on the DPOY list nearly every year, and had a much higher peak in 88 (out-blocking half of the starting centers, setting records for blocks/steals, etc, basically Kawhi on crack).... BUT Pippen was better in the stretch of the 97 and 98 seasons, when Jordan's athleticism had started to diminish. So both are excellent defenders, and very close. But Pippen's never had a year like Jordan of 88, where he actually rivaled the impact of some of the best defensive center seasons in the league. So in terms of defense? Pippen has definitely been overrated. You take what fans say compared to what players who actually played in the league say, and it's night and day on Jordan's defending abilities in particular. Pippen? Has been glorified on that end, since. Reality- Jordan, Pippen and Rodman are three of the best defensive player of all time.

Of course Jordan needed Scottie for six championships. Who doesn't need a second star or a ridiculous defensive supporting cast? Can you imagine what Scottie's legacy would be, had he played for a garbage team like Mitch Richmond? Jordan would be talked about no matter what.

Addressing an earlier comment - Though they have different strengths, Scottie's competitiveness and defensive play style is unusually similar to Jordan's.... way too similar for Jordan to not have helped to mold him. Scottie himself stated that it did defensively in interviews and that guarding Jordan in practice improved his defensive abilities immensely. Why wouldn't guarding the most unstoppable scorer help you? That wouldn't make sense.

TLDR: Scottie is a top 50 player, dynamic, one of the best 2nd options of all time, but not an elite scorer, or a batman who could take over games. He was rarely considered a top 8 player in the league, but was consistently around 10. He was a John Stockton type of player. Scottie will continue to be salty due to the Last Dance and his remaining in the shadow of Jordan, but it’s pretty damned accurate. Watch your choice of literally any of the six Bulls finals and you’ll see this.
LeBron has a 17.8% field goal percentage and a 12.5% 3-point percentage in clutch situations, and also made 20 of 116 game winning/tying shots in 4th/OT during his career :wink:
northbrookrich
Veteran
Posts: 2,919
And1: 54
Joined: Feb 14, 2006

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#152 » by northbrookrich » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:14 am

I think the issue here is the narrative is already in stone. Any attempt to change that narrative is going to come off as revisionist and whiny. Pippen never had the media savvy of Michael and that's not going to change. Pippen can write an eloquent 1000 page novel detailing his importance to the championships, to the team, to the organization or even to Chicago. Then, Jordan will do an interview and say how much he loves Scottie and values his contributions to Jordan's 6 championships....and the media will eat it up and Pippen's masterpiece will be forgotten as a side-note to Micheal's greatness.

Does anyone really need to read about why Scottie felt he should have had the final shot instead of Kukoc? Nothing he can say, in my mind, will change that embarrassment. What about Scottie's delaying his surgery or battles with management about his contract (most are totally on his side, but ultimately we wanted championships and anyone standing in they way of that goal is a villain). Migraine headache - I'm sure it was a real mallady, but put side to side with Jordan's Flu (food poisoning) game and Pippen comes off as weak (what can he say to keep people from making that comparison?) Is Pippen going to talk about the fact that he needed to be the real leader of the locker-room because Jordan was always off doing his own thing? (I'm not sure anyone is disputing that he was one of the main leaders and reasons that the team won all those rings)

There is no reason for a Bulls fan to choose one of these guys over the other. But, I just don't see anything that is going to change the narrative that Jordan is the GOAT and he played with an all-time great 2nd banana.
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 14,944
And1: 9,087
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#153 » by Jcool0 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:40 pm

Read on Twitter
User avatar
TheGOATRises007
RealGM
Posts: 21,340
And1: 19,957
Joined: Oct 05, 2013
         

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#154 » by TheGOATRises007 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:15 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
Read on Twitter


He is such a clown.

I don't know how anyone can take him serious.
User avatar
Jo Jo English
RealGM
Posts: 16,504
And1: 5,218
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Location: Summer Vacation
     

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#155 » by Jo Jo English » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:34 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Really disappointing to learn that he feels that way. It has never been a mystery how frustrated he was in the moment, but I never would have guessed he would feel Phil's decision came from a place like that.
User avatar
kulaz3000
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 42,469
And1: 24,622
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#156 » by kulaz3000 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:41 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Image

This photo pretty much sums up how I feel about his remarks.
Why so serious?
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 37,024
And1: 29,953
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#157 » by HomoSapien » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:02 pm

What is Pip doing? He has to let it go. Jackson obviously made the right move.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
User avatar
Jo Jo English
RealGM
Posts: 16,504
And1: 5,218
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Location: Summer Vacation
     

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#158 » by Jo Jo English » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:12 pm

Since that particular moment is being discussed...

Read on Twitter
User avatar
Repeat 3-peat
RealGM
Posts: 14,830
And1: 15,339
Joined: Nov 02, 2013
 

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#159 » by Repeat 3-peat » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:23 pm

This is really unfortunate that Pippen is speaking out like this.
Image
Bullflip
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,110
And1: 855
Joined: May 29, 2008

Re: Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story 

Post#160 » by Bullflip » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:11 am

I am not gonna lie, Durant owned Pippen there with that comment lol

Return to Chicago Bulls