The LeBron Thread 2021 Off-Season Edition

[Dupp]

Kinda funny we were hoping for Gallo and thinking he might take a pay cut to play for a contender. Then he signs with hawks and it’s like oh I guess he doesn’t want to play for a contender he’s just after money (whic is fine)


Fast forward and he’s got both and hawks have made it way further than the lakers.

One of the most underrated players of the past decade. Mightve been a top 5 Sf of this era if he stayed healthy. HE was huge for Okcs success last season too

Hes always injured though. TBH hes kinda been a waste of money for the hawks.

[falcolombardi]

Weird there aren’t any asterisk talk this year, isn’t it.

Suns have faced:
- Lakers with an injured AD and hurt LeBron.
- Nuggets without Murray
- Clippers without Kawhi

Imagine all the asterisk talk if the Lakers faced three injured teams like that.

Imagine the Lakers were 3-2 without James and +40 or whatever. Just imagine

yeah

lebron has great plus minus means is his fault for making his teammates forget how to play basketball without him.

but if his team has a good stretch without him then that also means is his fault lol (somehow this almost never happens despite lebron "unfair" superteams)

any other player has great stats but meh plus minus or the team offense is mediocre? they are goat level series and that player is now better than lebron (like dursnt this year

[homecourtloss]

Suns have faced:
- Lakers with an injured AD and hurt LeBron.
- Nuggets without Murray
- Clippers without Kawhi

Imagine all the asterisk talk if the Lakers faced three injured teams like that.

Imagine the Lakers were 3-2 without James and +40 or whatever. Just imagine

yeah

lebron has great plus minus means is his fault for making his teammates forget how to play basketball without him.

but if his team has a good stretch without him then that also means is his fault lol (somehow this almost never happens despite lebron "unfair" superteams)

any other player has great stats but meh plus minus or the team offense is mediocre? they are goat level series and that player is now better than lebron (like dursnt this year

LeBron’s team is awful without him? “He controls everything and makes grown professionals how to play basketball.”

LeBron’s team is good without him? “He’s not the best player on his own team,” “how much help does he need.”

Lebron does well while leading a team to a series lead? “What a front runner when the pressure is off.”

Lebron has an amazing elimination game? “What was LeBum doing facing elimination?”

And so on

[falcolombardi]

the best example is last durant series

no cherrypicking, nobody blamed him for his team being dependant on him, questioned if his stats translated to real impact cause the offense was bad overall, trolled him for b3ing owned by a younger player in giannis

[MartinToVaught]

LeBron’s team is good without him? “He’s not the best player on his own team,” “how much help does he need.”

They don't even have to be good without him. All they even need to do is make a shot and suddenly they're "bailing out LeBrick" and "saving LeChoke's legacy."

[thebigbird]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

[Dupp]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

They aren’t playing particularly great either. If bucks don’t win this year they never will.

[trickshot]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

They aren’t playing particularly great either. If bucks don’t win this year they never will.

Yeah both teams are likable at least but hard to gauge imo. One played 3 teams with injured 2nd options, which is insane. The other are the Bucks whom make every series look harder than it should be, part thanks to Giannis being unable to dominate like we're used to.

I wanted Giannis to win but personally hoped it would happen when he became a more complete, mature version of himself. Thanks to injuries he gets to skip the arc where he absolutely redefines his game, comes back and wreaks havoc to get that elusive 1st title. Just like Dirk in 11, Lebron in 12, Jordan in 91, Shaq in the 00s, Kobe in 10s. When these guys finally won they completely ripped the manual on how to guard them. Giannis is getting there but not quite.

[trickshot]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

Suns probably also have a tactical matchup in the finals thanks to the Bucks rigid coaching insisting on that idiotic drop coverage against players that have been killing it in the midrange pullup.

[homecourtloss]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

Strange as it sounds, for historical context, this has been a decent post season for LeBron despite the obvious missed opportunity. There’s a void for “best player in the game” because nobody combines the box score metrics + impact metrics the way LeBron does and you see this when people are trying to come up with who’s the best player in the game.

KD

—Had great box scores, but even box score driven metrics has him not at Lebron levels. .214 WS/48, +10.0 BPM, 27.1 PER [basically LeBron career average or below average]
—Overall, +3.8 per 100 possessions on court and the Nets +20.3 per 100 possessions with KD off court. -1.5 on court vs. the Bucks, 43.5% eFG, 50% TS with Kyrie and Harden off.

RAPTOR: 40th

Kawhi

—Even better box scores than Durant, .284 WS/48, +10.7 BPM, 30.9 PER.
—Overall +3.3 per 100 possessions and the Clippers +8.8 with him off court with a substantially better defense (nearly 8 points per 100 possessions better), closed out the Jazz without him,

RAPTOR: 9th (was 20th before Suns series)

Luka was phenomenal both box score wise and in impact measuring how poor the Mavs were with him off court, but his on court numbers weren’t great.

Embiid had great combo of box score and impact and really should have won that series vs. the Hawks as the Sixers outplayed them for most of the series but ending soured everyone.

Jokic had great box scores but impact was again spotty (on/off negative for second straight playoffs.

Giannis can take the mantle but doubts about his offense and how he hasn’t been the offensive engine have soured people on him.

Not sure how high Lebron can get back up next year, but it’s clear to see the gap between LeBron being the best in the world and the others vying for the title.

[BobbyPortisFan]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

They aren’t playing particularly great either. If bucks don’t win this year they never will.

Yeah both teams are likable at least but hard to gauge imo. One played 3 teams with injured 2nd options, which is insane. The other are the Bucks whom make every series look harder than it should be, part thanks to Giannis being unable to dominate like we're used to.

I wanted Giannis to win but personally hoped it would happen when he became a more complete, mature version of himself. Thanks to injuries he gets to skip the arc where he absolutely redefines his game, comes back and wreaks havoc to get that elusive 1st title. Just like Dirk in 11, Lebron in 12, Jordan in 91, Shaq in the 00s, Kobe in 10s. When these guys finally won they completely ripped the manual on how to guard them. Giannis is getting there but not quite.

jordan wasn't a radically different player between 90 and 91 In fact he was worse at everything. But pippen became a superstar in the playoffs and the pistons weren't the same after isiah's injury. If jordan "redfined himself" it was in 89 and 90 as phil implemented the triangle.

Also what do you mean in the 10's. Kobe played alot better in 09 than he did in 10.

[falcolombardi]

They aren’t playing particularly great either. If bucks don’t win this year they never will.

Yeah both teams are likable at least but hard to gauge imo. One played 3 teams with injured 2nd options, which is insane. The other are the Bucks whom make every series look harder than it should be, part thanks to Giannis being unable to dominate like we're used to.

I wanted Giannis to win but personally hoped it would happen when he became a more complete, mature version of himself. Thanks to injuries he gets to skip the arc where he absolutely redefines his game, comes back and wreaks havoc to get that elusive 1st title. Just like Dirk in 11, Lebron in 12, Jordan in 91, Shaq in the 00s, Kobe in 10s. When these guys finally won they completely ripped the manual on how to guard them. Giannis is getting there but not quite.

jordan wasn't a radically different player between 90 and 91 In fact he was worse at everything. But pippen became a superstar in the playoffs and the pistons weren't the same after isiah's injury. If jordan "redfined himself" it was in 89 and 90 as phil implemented the triangle.

Also what do you mean in the 10's. Kobe played alot better in 09 than he did in 10.

yeah, we buy into narratives and pick championship years by default as players peaks or the year where they completed some sort of hero journey

in reality lots of players have their peaks in years they dont win

jordan didnt become a better player in 91 or learned somethingh he didnt knew, pistons got a year older ans pippen ans grant took a step forward. but the "sexyer" narrative is that jordan finally beat the pistons in 91 cause killer instinct or somethingh. he had been the better player in those series as soon as 87

kawhi in 2019 was not better than 2017, outlier shooting or not lebron was not necesarrily better in 2012 thsn 2009, and it applies to lots of players

[trickshot]

They aren’t playing particularly great either. If bucks don’t win this year they never will.

Yeah both teams are likable at least but hard to gauge imo. One played 3 teams with injured 2nd options, which is insane. The other are the Bucks whom make every series look harder than it should be, part thanks to Giannis being unable to dominate like we're used to.

I wanted Giannis to win but personally hoped it would happen when he became a more complete, mature version of himself. Thanks to injuries he gets to skip the arc where he absolutely redefines his game, comes back and wreaks havoc to get that elusive 1st title. Just like Dirk in 11, Lebron in 12, Jordan in 91, Shaq in the 00s, Kobe in 10s. When these guys finally won they completely ripped the manual on how to guard them. Giannis is getting there but not quite.

jordan wasn't a radically different player between 90 and 91 In fact he was worse at everything. But pippen became a superstar in the playoffs and the pistons weren't the same after isiah's injury. If jordan "redfined himself" it was in 89 and 90 as phil implemented the triangle.

Also what do you mean in the 10's. Kobe played alot better in 09 than he did in 10.

His approach changed big imo. It's even still there to see, You could still watch the first quarter of 91 playoff games. So many where Jordan doesn't start attacking till the 2nd quarter or half, he's just setting up his teammates getting the team into a rhythm and getting easy offense from passing, a far cry from the younger version who tried to go ham on the opponents 1v5 from the start. His approach against formidable opponents changed in the postseason. Details get lost over time but he really did get wiser and higher bbiq. Basically learnt the power of the open man, (credit to Phil's system).

( The Pistons still talk about it today and wish they'd actually explain more how he used passing to beat their scheme so it sounds less tropish. yeah it's passing to who's open or not trying to score over a fcking wall, but still..)

[trickshot]

Yeah both teams are likable at least but hard to gauge imo. One played 3 teams with injured 2nd options, which is insane. The other are the Bucks whom make every series look harder than it should be, part thanks to Giannis being unable to dominate like we're used to.

I wanted Giannis to win but personally hoped it would happen when he became a more complete, mature version of himself. Thanks to injuries he gets to skip the arc where he absolutely redefines his game, comes back and wreaks havoc to get that elusive 1st title. Just like Dirk in 11, Lebron in 12, Jordan in 91, Shaq in the 00s, Kobe in 10s. When these guys finally won they completely ripped the manual on how to guard them. Giannis is getting there but not quite.

jordan wasn't a radically different player between 90 and 91 In fact he was worse at everything. But pippen became a superstar in the playoffs and the pistons weren't the same after isiah's injury. If jordan "redfined himself" it was in 89 and 90 as phil implemented the triangle.

Also what do you mean in the 10's. Kobe played alot better in 09 than he did in 10.

yeah, we buy into narratives and pick championship years by default as players peaks or the year where they completed some sort of hero journey

in reality lots of players have their peaks in years they dont win

jordan didnt become a better player in 91 or learned somethingh he didnt knew, pistons got a year older ans pippen ans grant took a step forward. but the "sexyer" narrative is that jordan finally beat the pistons in 91 cause killer instinct or somethingh. he had been the better player in those series as soon as 87

kawhi in 2019 was not better than 2017, outlier shooting or not lebron was not necesarrily better in 2012 thsn 2009, and it applies to lots of players

My fault for not explaining. Wasn't going to write a whole paragraph. Picking the most glaring improvements Lebron in 12 developed a postgame or at least learnt to use it more, Dirk was not the same guy who got marginalised by the we believe warriors in his MVP season, at the time was believed he had troubles with smaller defenders, almost inconceivable when you his form in 11, while Kobe and coaching put aside their differences and he also learned to play more within the system.

Narrative is a big problem in winning but we can't swing too far and explain all qualitative changes in player games as narratives. The rest will get debated but at the very least we all saw the Lebron maturation.

[FC93]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

Strange as it sounds, for historical context, this has been a decent post season for LeBron despite the obvious missed opportunity. There’s a void for “best player in the game” because nobody combines the box score metrics + impact metrics the way LeBron does and you see this when people are trying to come up with who’s the best player in the game.

KD

—Had great box scores, but even box score driven metrics has him not at Lebron levels. .214 WS/48, +10.0 BPM, 27.1 PER [basically LeBron career average or below average]
—Overall, +3.8 per 100 possessions on court and the Nets +20.3 per 100 possessions with KD off court. -1.5 on court vs. the Bucks, 43.5% eFG, 50% TS with Kyrie and Harden off.

RAPTOR: 40th

Kawhi

—Even better box scores than Durant, .284 WS/48, +10.7 BPM, 30.9 PER.
—Overall +3.3 per 100 possessions and the Clippers +8.8 with him off court with a substantially better defense (nearly 8 points per 100 possessions better), closed out the Jazz without him,

RAPTOR: 9th (was 20th before Suns series)

Luka was phenomenal both box score wise and in impact measuring how poor the Mavs were with him off court, but his on court numbers weren’t great.

Embiid had great combo of box score and impact and really should have won that series vs. the Hawks as the Sixers outplayed them for most of the series but ending soured everyone.

Jokic had great box scores but impact was again spotty (on/off negative for second straight playoffs.

Giannis can take the mantle but doubts about his offense and how he hasn’t been the offensive engine have soured people on him.

Not sure how high Lebron can get back up next year, but it’s clear to see the gap between LeBron being the best in the world and the others vying for the title.

So it’s not just my eyes? The Clippers are playing significantly better since Kawhi went down than they were with him? Primarily/entirely as a result of better defense? Interesting…

[falcolombardi]

Sucks that LeBron and AD weren’t healthy. Suns are gonna cakewalk to the finals playing three straight injured teams.

Strange as it sounds, for historical context, this has been a decent post season for LeBron despite the obvious missed opportunity. There’s a void for “best player in the game” because nobody combines the box score metrics + impact metrics the way LeBron does and you see this when people are trying to come up with who’s the best player in the game.

KD

—Had great box scores, but even box score driven metrics has him not at Lebron levels. .214 WS/48, +10.0 BPM, 27.1 PER [basically LeBron career average or below average]
—Overall, +3.8 per 100 possessions on court and the Nets +20.3 per 100 possessions with KD off court. -1.5 on court vs. the Bucks, 43.5% eFG, 50% TS with Kyrie and Harden off.

RAPTOR: 40th

Kawhi

—Even better box scores than Durant, .284 WS/48, +10.7 BPM, 30.9 PER.
—Overall +3.3 per 100 possessions and the Clippers +8.8 with him off court with a substantially better defense (nearly 8 points per 100 possessions better), closed out the Jazz without him,

RAPTOR: 9th (was 20th before Suns series)

Luka was phenomenal both box score wise and in impact measuring how poor the Mavs were with him off court, but his on court numbers weren’t great.

Embiid had great combo of box score and impact and really should have won that series vs. the Hawks as the Sixers outplayed them for most of the series but ending soured everyone.

Jokic had great box scores but impact was again spotty (on/off negative for second straight playoffs.

Giannis can take the mantle but doubts about his offense and how he hasn’t been the offensive engine have soured people on him.

Not sure how high Lebron can get back up next year, but it’s clear to see the gap between LeBron being the best in the world and the others vying for the title.

So it’s not just my eyes? The Clippers are playing significantly better since Kawhi went down than they were with him? Primarily/entirely as a result of better defense? Interesting…

maybe it unlocked their shooting? by increasing ball movement or somethingh?

Paul george can replicate kawhi scoring to some extent (lets say 70% of the value) and their games overlap a por so there are diminishing returns to that duo offensively

is possible that without kawhi, a improvement in ball movement and maybe more effort put by the role players has replaced his impact? maybe?

after all a open shot by a good role player, specially 3's is better than a contested one by a star, specially midrange

[homecourtloss]

Strange as it sounds, for historical context, this has been a decent post season for LeBron despite the obvious missed opportunity. There’s a void for “best player in the game” because nobody combines the box score metrics + impact metrics the way LeBron does and you see this when people are trying to come up with who’s the best player in the game.

KD

—Had great box scores, but even box score driven metrics has him not at Lebron levels. .214 WS/48, +10.0 BPM, 27.1 PER [basically LeBron career average or below average]
—Overall, +3.8 per 100 possessions on court and the Nets +20.3 per 100 possessions with KD off court. -1.5 on court vs. the Bucks, 43.5% eFG, 50% TS with Kyrie and Harden off.

RAPTOR: 40th

Kawhi

—Even better box scores than Durant, .284 WS/48, +10.7 BPM, 30.9 PER.
—Overall +3.3 per 100 possessions and the Clippers +8.8 with him off court with a substantially better defense (nearly 8 points per 100 possessions better), closed out the Jazz without him,

RAPTOR: 9th (was 20th before Suns series)

Luka was phenomenal both box score wise and in impact measuring how poor the Mavs were with him off court, but his on court numbers weren’t great.

Embiid had great combo of box score and impact and really should have won that series vs. the Hawks as the Sixers outplayed them for most of the series but ending soured everyone.

Jokic had great box scores but impact was again spotty (on/off negative for second straight playoffs.

Giannis can take the mantle but doubts about his offense and how he hasn’t been the offensive engine have soured people on him.

Not sure how high Lebron can get back up next year, but it’s clear to see the gap between LeBron being the best in the world and the others vying for the title.

So it’s not just my eyes? The Clippers are playing significantly better since Kawhi went down than they were with him? Primarily/entirely as a result of better defense? Interesting…

maybe it unlocked their shooting? by increasing ball movement or somethingh?

Paul george can replicate kawhi scoring to some extent (lets say 70% of the value) and their games overlap a por so there are diminishing returns to that duo offensively

is possible that without kawhi, a improvement in ball movement and maybe more effort put by the role players has replaced his impact? maybe?

after all a open shot by a good role player, specially 3's is better than a contested one by a star, specially midrange

Their offense is slightly worse but their defense is tiers better without him and that’s where the +8.8 per 100 possessions comes from.

[falcolombardi]

So it’s not just my eyes? The Clippers are playing significantly better since Kawhi went down than they were with him? Primarily/entirely as a result of better defense? Interesting…

maybe it unlocked their shooting? by increasing ball movement or somethingh?

Paul george can replicate kawhi scoring to some extent (lets say 70% of the value) and their games overlap a por so there are diminishing returns to that duo offensively

is possible that without kawhi, a improvement in ball movement and maybe more effort put by the role players has replaced his impact? maybe?

after all a open shot by a good role player, specially 3's is better than a contested one by a star, specially midrange

Their offense is slightly worse but their defense is tiers better without him and that’s where the +8.8 per 100 possessions comes from.

damn, that is pretty crazy

is kawhi living off his reputation or somethingh? is hard to imagine any context where an all D player correlates with his team beung trash in D with him

maybe is a small sample anomaly?

[homecourtloss]

maybe it unlocked their shooting? by increasing ball movement or somethingh?

Paul george can replicate kawhi scoring to some extent (lets say 70% of the value) and their games overlap a por so there are diminishing returns to that duo offensively

is possible that without kawhi, a improvement in ball movement and maybe more effort put by the role players has replaced his impact? maybe?

after all a open shot by a good role player, specially 3's is better than a contested one by a star, specially midrange

Their offense is slightly worse but their defense is tiers better without him and that’s where the +8.8 per 100 possessions comes from.

damn, that is pretty crazy

is kawhi living off his reputation or somethingh? is hard to imagine any context where an all D player correlates with his team beung trash in D with him

maybe is a small sample anomaly?

It’s a pretty big sample size now but also it’s been true over the past two years. James doesn’t make all NBA defense even in 2016 while also being better than Kawhi defensively the last two years and still getting nothing

[homecourtloss]

Yeah both teams are likable at least but hard to gauge imo. One played 3 teams with injured 2nd options, which is insane. The other are the Bucks whom make every series look harder than it should be, part thanks to Giannis being unable to dominate like we're used to.

I wanted Giannis to win but personally hoped it would happen when he became a more complete, mature version of himself. Thanks to injuries he gets to skip the arc where he absolutely redefines his game, comes back and wreaks havoc to get that elusive 1st title. Just like Dirk in 11, Lebron in 12, Jordan in 91, Shaq in the 00s, Kobe in 10s. When these guys finally won they completely ripped the manual on how to guard them. Giannis is getting there but not quite.

jordan wasn't a radically different player between 90 and 91 In fact he was worse at everything. But pippen became a superstar in the playoffs and the pistons weren't the same after isiah's injury. If jordan "redfined himself" it was in 89 and 90 as phil implemented the triangle.

Also what do you mean in the 10's. Kobe played alot better in 09 than he did in 10.

yeah, we buy into narratives and pick championship years by default as players peaks or the year where they completed some sort of hero journey

in reality lots of players have their peaks in years they dont win

jordan didnt become a better player in 91 or learned somethingh he didnt knew, pistons got a year older ans pippen ans grant took a step forward. but the "sexyer" narrative is that jordan finally beat the pistons in 91 cause killer instinct or somethingh. he had been the better player in those series as soon as 87

kawhi in 2019 was not better than 2017, outlier shooting or not lebron was not necesarrily better in 2012 thsn 2009, and it applies to lots of players

Sansterre in his Top 100 teams project had a great writeup about the Bulls ascendency and the role Pippen’s and Grant’s respective emergences played in creating a championship team.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2070312