Bosh: Nets Big 3 are better than Heat Big 3

[Franco]

Lebron > Durant
Wade >= Harden
Bosh >= Irving

Before anyone says anything, don't post Wade's numbers while playing with Lebron to tell me he was washed. That is the sacrifice required to win. It would be the same if Harden/Durant/Kyrie actually all played together. It wouldn't mean Harden is washed but the opportunity to post absurd numbers is a lot less and requires a different skill set.

Bosh was the better fit as a big man who can compliment the other 2 stars better than Kyrie can as the 3rd star scoring guard.

You're lying to no one but yourself if you think 2012-2014 Wade was better than current James Harden.

I guess Wade also deliberately sacrificed his health in those years too right?

Makes sense, he even shared his health with LeBron, that's why he's been able to play for so long. It all fits now!

[Rebel INS]

Nets big 3 fit better together. The reason that Heat team didn’t win 4 times in a row was because they didn’t have elite chemistry.

In hindsight, its such an awkward fit of skill sets that they were never going to be greater than the sum of their parts. Without Ray Allen, it's conceivable that they have as many rings as the Lebron/Kyrie/Love Cavs - despite prime max-contract Wade and Bosh being clearly more talented than Kyrie and Love in a vacuum

People had the cliched 'there's only one ball' take when the Nets added Harden, but ultimately all three are elite shooters who can be effective offball. Bosh had to basically become a different player in order to make it work at all

[trickshot]

At the times of their formation, I'd say the star configurations were similar.

1. Kyrie and Bosh were both top 15-20 players. Bosh was the best player on a miserable team (his co-stars were guys like Bargnani, Calderon, Anthony Parker, and Turkoglu the year he fell off.) Kyrie had been the second-best player on a finals/championship team, but had struggled as the brightest star in Boston.
2. Wade and Harden were both clear top 5 players. Wade I'd say was rated slightly higher. He was already a champion in 2006 and in 2010 was coming off his best statistical season. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year. There's a bit of an East/West bias here, as Harden's playoff choking came in the West and it's not hard to see him making the finals (or only losing to Lebron) over the past 5 years. I think these players are fairly analogous in terms of league perception at the time. Wade vs. Harden is always a fun debate.
3. Lebron and Durant were both in the argument for best player in the league. Bron was more unanimously considered the best player in the league. He'd won b2b MVP awards and was just entering his prime at the tender age of 25. Durant was 32 and coming off an Achilles injury. His case for league's best player isn't ironclad but it's still strong.

Talent-wise, I would give the Heat a small edge. I think the bigger difference is in fit:

The Heat really struggled to find their identity. The team could not/would not figure out how to incorporate Bosh into a Lebron-ccentric offense, so they politely asked him to get out of the way. Offensively, Wade and Lebron were too similar as poor shooters who needed the offense built around their dribble-drive attacks. While this team found a good fit on defense (Bosh trapping/switching on the perimeter while Lebron and Wade swooped in for rim protection), even at their peak, this offense was less than the sum of its parts. Spolestra did some clever things to make the Heat offense hum (loved Lebron's quick seal post ups), but when you have the 2 best players in the league and another top 20 guy, you're sort of expected to be the #1 offense.

The Nets are the opposite. There's not going to be "fit" on defense. They'll just try their best and we can hope the FO adds the right defensive pieces for next years run (but the fit wont come from Harden and Kyrie). But on offense, these 3 guys are all absolutely epic shooters, which gives them a huge advantage on the Heatles. Shooting is the easiest way to grease the wheels on offense. Durant is the easiest guy to play with on the planet, and Kyrie and Harden seemed to find a way to share the backcourt pretty nicely (with Kyrie being a pure attacker and Harden being the teams facilitator). A healthy Nets would be the best offensive team in the league every year.

Had the Heat had more shooting from it's stars, or figured out how to use Bosh in the offense (how hard is it to incorporate a big who can shoot, slash, and finish?) I'd say the Heat. But the fit advantage is much smoother on the Nets.

Kind of amazing to realise we, self included omitted to factor for defense. The Heat had an amazing impact on smallball defense. No one since the heat have come close to having a swiss army type defense. Defense of those types of lineups used to be closer to swiss cheese.

[ropjhk]

Should we compare them as individuals or as a unit? It's hard to evaluate the Nets big 3 as a unit since they've spent so little time together.

As individuals you've got to compare them in the season before they all joined up.

2010 Lebron > 2019 Durant (GOAT level player in his early prime vs. top 15 all time player in later prime)
2010 Wade == 2020 Harden (Playoff performer vs Regular season performer)
2010 Bosh == 2020 Irving (Both all stars in their prime. Irving may have more talent but has more flaws as a team leader)

Obviously comparisons go deeper than that. This is just a superficial comparison.

We'll have to wait until next season to get a true sense of how well the Nets big 3 will perform together. Next year they should be better prepared and hopefully we'll see them play together for most of the regular season.

[KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127]

Durant, Kyrie and Harden are all better than Wade and Bosh so even if you say Lebron was the best you still have the Nets Big 3 as the next 3 best and most talented. So your real question is Prime Lebron that much better than an older torn ACL Durant. Not sure that’s a far comparasion but it’s closer than people think.

Don't think so, if it was close we'd be debating current KD as a GOAT contender. Not even ESPN would run that headline.

I actually prefer the Nets big 3 btw. In terms of skillset 1 floor raiser+ 2 ceiling raisers over the redundancy of 2 floor raisers like the Heat, but also because Wade entered a sharp decline after 11. Maybe there's a reality where Wade stays healthy and their redundancies don't matter but we'll never know.

edit 2018 Lebron would probably fit seamlessly with Wade though so I'd admit this floor raiser/ceiling raiser nonsense is also lazy basketball math. Personally only use it as a convenient but loose way to make a comparison.

I agree that 2018 Lebron would have been a better fit.

I think Durant gets a ton of hate because of joining the Warriors. He’s clearly still a top 10 player in the league even at his age.

I’m also a Lebron hater so I’m extremely biased.

If we’re talking Prime Wade then I easily take the Heat because Prime Lebron and Prime Wade are both arguably better than Durant. Wade had the team on his back for many years.

[Zvaart]

lol, you are delusional if you think that

I'm pretty sure he meant 2011 Lebron, pointless to compete 2021 Lebron when it's not the version of Lebron that played in Miami.

My bad, I meant 2011 for sure.

Aaight, you are correct then

[cupcakesnake]

At the times of their formation, I'd say the star configurations were similar.

1. Kyrie and Bosh were both top 15-20 players. Bosh was the best player on a miserable team (his co-stars were guys like Bargnani, Calderon, Anthony Parker, and Turkoglu the year he fell off.) Kyrie had been the second-best player on a finals/championship team, but had struggled as the brightest star in Boston.
2. Wade and Harden were both clear top 5 players. Wade I'd say was rated slightly higher. He was already a champion in 2006 and in 2010 was coming off his best statistical season. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year. There's a bit of an East/West bias here, as Harden's playoff choking came in the West and it's not hard to see him making the finals (or only losing to Lebron) over the past 5 years. I think these players are fairly analogous in terms of league perception at the time. Wade vs. Harden is always a fun debate.
3. Lebron and Durant were both in the argument for best player in the league. Bron was more unanimously considered the best player in the league. He'd won b2b MVP awards and was just entering his prime at the tender age of 25. Durant was 32 and coming off an Achilles injury. His case for league's best player isn't ironclad but it's still strong.

Talent-wise, I would give the Heat a small edge. I think the bigger difference is in fit:

The Heat really struggled to find their identity. The team could not/would not figure out how to incorporate Bosh into a Lebron-ccentric offense, so they politely asked him to get out of the way. Offensively, Wade and Lebron were too similar as poor shooters who needed the offense built around their dribble-drive attacks. While this team found a good fit on defense (Bosh trapping/switching on the perimeter while Lebron and Wade swooped in for rim protection), even at their peak, this offense was less than the sum of its parts. Spolestra did some clever things to make the Heat offense hum (loved Lebron's quick seal post ups), but when you have the 2 best players in the league and another top 20 guy, you're sort of expected to be the #1 offense.

The Nets are the opposite. There's not going to be "fit" on defense. They'll just try their best and we can hope the FO adds the right defensive pieces for next years run (but the fit wont come from Harden and Kyrie). But on offense, these 3 guys are all absolutely epic shooters, which gives them a huge advantage on the Heatles. Shooting is the easiest way to grease the wheels on offense. Durant is the easiest guy to play with on the planet, and Kyrie and Harden seemed to find a way to share the backcourt pretty nicely (with Kyrie being a pure attacker and Harden being the teams facilitator). A healthy Nets would be the best offensive team in the league every year.

Had the Heat had more shooting from it's stars, or figured out how to use Bosh in the offense (how hard is it to incorporate a big who can shoot, slash, and finish?) I'd say the Heat. But the fit advantage is much smoother on the Nets.

Kind of amazing to realise we, self included omitted to factor for defense. The Heat had an amazing impact on smallball defense. No one since the heat have come close to having a swiss army type defense. Defense of those types of lineups used to be closer to swiss cheese.

I'm not sure it should be overstated. Early Miami kept a center on the floor (Joel Anthony, Big Z, Dampier), and often played with 2 bigs after that (Haslem & Bosh). It wasn't until their last year together that they didn't start a second big, and that was mostly due to a crumbling roster.

The Heat's defense ended up not being very influential, because teams figured out their aggressive trapping scheme and how to pass out of it. (Jason Kidd tried it in Milwaukee for example). It was pretty dependant on having 2 rare wing shotblockers (Wade and Lebron), and having great man defenders to free them up to focus on help (Battier, Haslem). It was unique but it didn't have lasting effects. It's also not like Miami was amazing, they were just good. Top 5 a couple of years, but not a historical outlier.

Also, while having an elite rim protecting big is the easiest way to build an elite defense, Miami wasn't the first or best to accomplish this. MJ and Scottie are the most famous template. The original bad boy Pistons were another team that relied on having a bunch of good, versatile defenders. Golden State during the Durant years (after Bogut left) was more about versatility and the ability to play Iggy/Draymond/Durant at the 3/4/5. I remember listening to a podcast where they listed all the great defenses who did it without a dominant center, but I can't remember them all right now.

More recent examples than Golden State would be the Clippers last year. The Raptors whenever they played without Marc Gasol. Boston and Miami last year.

[JN61]

Durant > Lebron
Harden > Wade
Irving < Bosh

Or
Durant
Lebron
Harden
Wade
Bosh
Irving

If there is any other order then no.

[trickshot]

At the times of their formation, I'd say the star configurations were similar.

1. Kyrie and Bosh were both top 15-20 players. Bosh was the best player on a miserable team (his co-stars were guys like Bargnani, Calderon, Anthony Parker, and Turkoglu the year he fell off.) Kyrie had been the second-best player on a finals/championship team, but had struggled as the brightest star in Boston.
2. Wade and Harden were both clear top 5 players. Wade I'd say was rated slightly higher. He was already a champion in 2006 and in 2010 was coming off his best statistical season. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year. There's a bit of an East/West bias here, as Harden's playoff choking came in the West and it's not hard to see him making the finals (or only losing to Lebron) over the past 5 years. I think these players are fairly analogous in terms of league perception at the time. Wade vs. Harden is always a fun debate.
3. Lebron and Durant were both in the argument for best player in the league. Bron was more unanimously considered the best player in the league. He'd won b2b MVP awards and was just entering his prime at the tender age of 25. Durant was 32 and coming off an Achilles injury. His case for league's best player isn't ironclad but it's still strong.

Talent-wise, I would give the Heat a small edge. I think the bigger difference is in fit:

The Heat really struggled to find their identity. The team could not/would not figure out how to incorporate Bosh into a Lebron-ccentric offense, so they politely asked him to get out of the way. Offensively, Wade and Lebron were too similar as poor shooters who needed the offense built around their dribble-drive attacks. While this team found a good fit on defense (Bosh trapping/switching on the perimeter while Lebron and Wade swooped in for rim protection), even at their peak, this offense was less than the sum of its parts. Spolestra did some clever things to make the Heat offense hum (loved Lebron's quick seal post ups), but when you have the 2 best players in the league and another top 20 guy, you're sort of expected to be the #1 offense.

The Nets are the opposite. There's not going to be "fit" on defense. They'll just try their best and we can hope the FO adds the right defensive pieces for next years run (but the fit wont come from Harden and Kyrie). But on offense, these 3 guys are all absolutely epic shooters, which gives them a huge advantage on the Heatles. Shooting is the easiest way to grease the wheels on offense. Durant is the easiest guy to play with on the planet, and Kyrie and Harden seemed to find a way to share the backcourt pretty nicely (with Kyrie being a pure attacker and Harden being the teams facilitator). A healthy Nets would be the best offensive team in the league every year.

Had the Heat had more shooting from it's stars, or figured out how to use Bosh in the offense (how hard is it to incorporate a big who can shoot, slash, and finish?) I'd say the Heat. But the fit advantage is much smoother on the Nets.

Kind of amazing to realise we, self included omitted to factor for defense. The Heat had an amazing impact on smallball defense. No one since the heat have come close to having a swiss army type defense. Defense of those types of lineups used to be closer to swiss cheese.

I'm not sure it should be overstated. Early Miami kept a center on the floor (Joel Anthony, Big Z, Dampier), and often played with 2 bigs after that (Haslem & Bosh). It wasn't until their last year together that they didn't start a second big, and that was mostly due to a crumbling roster.

The Heat's defense ended up not being very influential, because teams figured out their aggressive trapping scheme and how to pass out of it. (Jason Kidd tried it in Milwaukee for example). It was pretty dependant on having 2 rare wing shotblockers (Wade and Lebron), and having great man defenders to free them up to focus on help (Battier, Haslem). It was unique but it didn't have lasting effects. It's also not like Miami was amazing, they were just good. Top 5 a couple of years, but not a historical outlier.

Also, while having an elite rim protecting big is the easiest way to build an elite defense, Miami wasn't the first or best to accomplish this. MJ and Scottie are the most famous template. The original bad boy Pistons were another team that relied on having a bunch of good, versatile defenders. Golden State during the Durant years (after Bogut left) was more about versatility and the ability to play Iggy/Draymond/Durant at the 3/4/5. I remember listening to a podcast where they listed all the great defenses who did it without a dominant center, but I can't remember them all right now.

More recent examples than Golden State would be the Clippers last year. The Raptors whenever they played without Marc Gasol. Boston and Miami last year.

original post actually had a disclaimer to say someone was going to reference 96 Bulls and misread the intended point but decided against it. No, no one says they were the first t do it, am actually referring to something slightly different. What Miami did with their small lineups was having a 5 out lineup that was also fully capable defensively. Normally those lineups that sacrifice a 5 get exposed because of what is given up in size, interior defense and rebounding. Miami mitigated the problem by having the entire 5 share the burden of what was lost rebounding and defense as well as having Lebron be a defensive cheatcode, Only the Warriors have surpassed this since. This, I thought, greatly improved smallball's image in the 10s.

Also they didn't play that aggressive trapping scheme that got ripped to shreds in 14 every year they were together, i think it was brought in 13. I personally never liked that scheme because they trapped even the most obvious of passers. However just like the Warriors people don't think they invented the concept.

Rather Heat then Warriors were the most recent to show 5 out, fully spaced smallball unit could be viable on both ends. Far cry from the once considered gimmick that scored a lot of points and gave up a lot as well.

[Harry Garris]

Maybe as they were, and if you count fit.

Prime LeBron and Prime Wade are the two best playoff performers in the discussion by a lot though.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I'd take KD over Wade in a heartbeat. Regardless, Wade wasn't in his prime anymore after the 2011 playoffs so it's a moot point.

[LakersLegacy]

1 LeBron
2 And 3 KD/Wade (which order?)
4 and 5 Kyrie/Harden (which order?
6 Bosh

[ken6199]

How about they win something 1st.

Again, lazy logic, crappy narrative, and easy and+1s.

Who is better, John Stockton or Derek Fisher? How about counting Stockton's rings first?

Nets big 3 don't have to win anything for us to have a fair comparison with the Heat big 3.

[Dominator83]

How about they win something 1st.

Again, lazy logic, crappy narrative, and easy and+1s.

Who is better, John Stockton or Derek Fisher? How about counting Stockton's rings first?

Nets big 3 don't have to win anything for us to have a fair comparison with the Heat big 3.

But they're not Derek Fisher's. They're a big 3. We're comparing Big 3s to Big 3s. Not big 3s to supporting role players.

Until they win 2 championships or more, they are not better than Miami's big 3.

[ken6199]

How about they win something 1st.

Again, lazy logic, crappy narrative, and easy and+1s.

Who is better, John Stockton or Derek Fisher? How about counting Stockton's rings first?

Nets big 3 don't have to win anything for us to have a fair comparison with the Heat big 3.

But they're not Derek Fisher's. They're a big 3. We're comparing Big 3s to Big 3s. Not big 3s to supporting role players.

Until they win 2 championships or more, they are not better than Miami's big 3.

Very solid logic. Comparing players using # of rings, that elevates the quality of the entire basketball fan base by quite a lot. Thank you.

[Dominator83]

Again, lazy logic, crappy narrative, and easy and+1s.

Who is better, John Stockton or Derek Fisher? How about counting Stockton's rings first?

Nets big 3 don't have to win anything for us to have a fair comparison with the Heat big 3.

But they're not Derek Fisher's. They're a big 3. We're comparing Big 3s to Big 3s. Not big 3s to supporting role players.

Until they win 2 championships or more, they are not better than Miami's big 3.

Very solid logic. Comparing players using # of rings, that elevates the quality of the entire basketball fan base by quite a lot. Thank you.

Well when your trotting out a big 3 such as that one, yes anything less than a championship is a failure. Especially if we're comparing them to the Heatles, who went to the finals all 4 years they were together. And won 2 of them.

[CodeBreaker]

Lebron > Durant
Wade >= Harden
Bosh >= Irving

Before anyone says anything, don't post Wade's numbers while playing with Lebron to tell me he was washed. That is the sacrifice required to win. It would be the same if Harden/Durant/Kyrie actually all played together. It wouldn't mean Harden is washed but the opportunity to post absurd numbers is a lot less and requires a different skill set.

Bosh was the better fit as a big man who can compliment the other 2 stars better than Kyrie can as the 3rd star scoring guard.

Honestly, DWade by 2012 really wasn't as good as Harden is now, and I'd argue he was barely better than Kyrie, if at all. The thing about Harden and Kyrie is that they're both elite shooters, and we saw them all put up pretty amazing numbers even when all three of them played. There really wasn't an obvious sacrifice, Harden just played more of a facilitator role and kyrie played more off ball and KD played the way he always did. Wade was never that level of off-ball threat and couldn't seamlessly fit with lebron in the same way. Offensively, he was a little worse playing with Brown.

But Bosh, I just don't get that one other than health. Kyrie is an elite shooter and really just a much better scorer than Bosh. Not as good of a defender, but a far better playmaker. Bosh averaged like 14/7/1.5 on I think decent efficiency in the playoffs w. the heat. Kyrie was putting up like 24/6/5 on like 48/37/93 and about 59 TS% before he went down. There's no situation where Kyrie would average that small of an amount of points. There were times when the Heat needed more, but Bosh simply couldn't do it.

As a whole, I think it's pretty clear the Nets Big 3 was better because all three of those guys can shoot and essentially do everything on or off the ball. Any one of them can initiate the offense, any one of them can drop 30 or 40 points, any one of them can handle the ball in transition, any one of them can hit 5 or 6 threes in a game. DWade was still probably just as good as Harden or KD or even a little better in 2011, but 2k12-2k14 those injuries made him a lot less effective.

Yea, that's probably why the poster you quoted picked 2011 Wade.
2012 Wade was no longer the same. 2011 Wade was arguably even better than current KD.

[SeniorWalker]

I think 2021 Durant > 2011 LeBron
2011 Wade > 2021 Harden
2011 Kyrie >= 2021 Bosh

2012-2014, LeBron is better than Durant
Harden is better than Wade
Kyrie and Bosh stay the same

So honestly, disregarding fit it's a wash, although the Heat were possibly a better team during most of their run. Unfair to determine right now.

Also 2014 Wade was a shell, the Nets do have the clear advantage there

[uberhikari]

Wade's knee basically makes it inarguable that the Nets Big 3 is better. By the 2012 PS Wade's knee was starting to turn into swiss cheese.

Wade in the 2012 ECF vs BOS: 21-6-4 on 51.8 TS%. (1 percentage point below league average TS%)

Wade in the pivotal game 6: 17-4-3 on 44.3 TS%.

And remember this was the series they really, really NEEDED Wade because Bosh was injured with an abdominal strain and didn't return until game 5. Let's look at Wade's first 4 games in that series without Bosh.

Games 1&2: 23-5-6 on 63 TS% (both MIA wins)
Games 3&4: 19-6-5 on 43 TS% (both MIA losses)

Game 4 in particular was really brutal. That game went to OT and the Heat lost by 2 points. Wade shot 7/22 on 41 TS%.

[Tor_Raps]

I think 2021 Durant > 2011 LeBron
2011 Wade > 2021 Harden
2011 Kyrie >= 2021 Bosh

2012-2014, LeBron is better than Durant
Harden is better than Wade
Kyrie and Bosh stay the same

So honestly, disregarding fit it's a wash, although the Heat were possibly a better team during most of their run. Unfair to determine right now.

Also 2014 Wade was a shell, the Nets do have the clear advantage there

Thing is we don't have 4 years of data for the Nets. Year 1 consisted of them all being injured so if you want to hold that against the Wade then you should also hold that against the Harden/Kyrie. We don't know how they'll even look.

[Ron Swanson]

I can't take anyone seriously who tries to argue that 2021 "I'll eat myself to death unless I get traded" James Harden is a better player than 2010-12 Dwyane Wade. It's the ultimate Lebron apologist litmus test.

Wade didn't actually crater until the 2013 season/playoffs. Just because his stats were neutered playing next to another ball-dominant player doesn't mean that he wasn't still prime Wade from 2010-2012, and to argue otherwise is hilarious. Look at the on/off and impact numbers. Lebron being the best player tilts this towards the Heat, but these narratives always give me a chuckle.