What exactly is the plan?

[dougthonus]

We are starting to get hints that Leonard is unhappy in LA. This guy has left two championship organizations, so at this point I have no idea what’s appealing to him, but being supported by our two All-Stars would at least reduce the burden on him and allow him to rest throughout the season.

You think the Bulls are better than the Clippers without Kawhi Leonard?

Who knows what Kawhi wants, but I'm not sure we have a cast that is better or would allow him more rest. Getting Kawhi would be similar to getting LeBron in 2010 to me in the sense that I'd be all over it if we had any chance to make it happen, because I know it would give us a great shot at a ring, and at the same time, I'd also kind of hate it, because part of me would die rooting for those guys at that time period. Kawhi may actually be the least likable star in the NBA to me right now.

[dougthonus]

We are starting to get hints that Leonard is unhappy in LA. This guy has left two championship organizations, so at this point I have no idea what’s appealing to him, but being supported by our two All-Stars would at least reduce the burden on him and allow him to rest throughout the season.

Is there any way possible we could even offer him a max? Doesn’t seem realistic this Summer with Aminu terrible contract.

We could offer him one next summer when he's most likely to be a UFA if we follow my 2022 plan.

[CobyWhite0]

I hear you guys, but I just don't see some expensive FA coming here this offseason.

True, but maybe win-now was never the best option to begin with?

The alternative to win-now is win-never. The tank thing is done, IMO. I think AKME had it right in that you need 3 allstars, and it's a lot easier to attract the 3rd, when you have the 2nd. I think having Zach getting recognition with improved play and Olympics is the next part. If we don't sign any multi-year deals next season, we'll have max space. Pat is the wildcard...if he makes a step forward (obviously there's an IF), he could become that guy - or at least be a very valuable trade chip for a superstar.

I can't find anywhere that AK said "you need 3 All-Stars to win" - and while I'm certainly not denying that he said it, this statement actually gels with what's going on with the Bulls right now (and backs up what you're saying):

"I think when you have a foundation of let's say two All-Stars in one place, I think it's easier to add additional things that we need," said Karnisovas. "So we're going to discuss the needs of the team and we'll attack it during free agency.''

The "3 All-Stars" thing certainly isn't a thing right now. The four Conference Finalists had a COMBINED total of 5 All-Stars this season.

LAC- PG13, Kawhi
PHX- CP3, Booker
MIL- Giannis
ATL- none

There were 2 teams with 3 All-Stars (BKN and UTAH), and they both lost in the 2nd round.

As for your statement "The alternative to win-now is win-never" - that's gold, I will probably be stealing that in the future.

[HomoSapien]

We are starting to get hints that Leonard is unhappy in LA. This guy has left two championship organizations, so at this point I have no idea what’s appealing to him, but being supported by our two All-Stars would at least reduce the burden on him and allow him to rest throughout the season.

I don’t understand, but appreciate, your continued optimism.

With the loss of draft picks and the subpar development of White, Williams, and Markkanen we might as well try and take big swings. As far as I'm concerned, it's the really the only option that makes sense because settling for the Dinwiddie's of the world isn't going to get us anywhere. As you've said, we've pained ourselves into a corner with the Vuc trade. It was a trade about trying to win, so that's exactly the type of roster we have to assemble.

But his team reached the WCF. Even if he were, theoretically, to leave, there is nothing about Kawhi’s career to suggest he’s interested in playing for a worse team than the one he’s on. Unless that team is in Los Angeles.

Is that true? I mean, he straight up left the Raptors for a worse team. Perhaps he thought it'd be easy in LA, especially with Paul George but he left a team that just won a championship for the unknown. He also burned bridges with arguably the most successful franchise of the modern era. Perhaps the only important thing to him is being in LA, but his decisions haven't been close to being the best basketball decisions.

We didn’t even make the play in. We have nothing unique to offer anyone except a max contract/bigger role to a young player who can’t get those things somewhere else.

We are not a free agency player for any established star.

I'll respectfully disagree. Our biggest draw is that we already have two All-Stars on the roster. Forming a super team clearly has become important to this generation. I'm not sure how many big markets can offer a max contract and already have two All-Stars in place, but I'm guessing the number is low. AKME were able to convince Donovon to come here, when no one thought he would. Clearly, they're good in the room so getting in the room has to be something we strive to do.

[dougthonus]

I'll respectfully disagree. Our biggest draw is that we already have two All-Stars on the roster. Forming a super team clearly has become important to this generation. I'm not sure how many big markets can offer a max contract and already have two All-Stars in place, but I'm guessing the number is low. AKME were able to convince Donovon to come here, when no one thought he would. Clearly, they're good in the room so getting in the room has to be something we strive to do.

You'd have to make trades into someone else's cap space in order to have enough cap room to offer him a max, so there isn't any clear cut way to do that. If he opted in and was a FA next year we could clear a max by taking no salaries beyond this year.

[HomoSapien]

You think the Bulls are better than the Clippers without Kawhi Leonard?

Gosh, I think I'm going to say yes and I know that sounds crazy, but this isn't the uber-talented Clippers team that's bench was anchored by Lou Williams and Montrezl Harrell after Leonard and George. Who is currently the Clippers third-best player? Reggie Jackson? A guy that likely can't afford to bring back? This Clippers squad is sort of a hodgepodge of once talented players who are on the brink of aging out of being rotation guys. You have to wonder what Leonard is thinking as he watches Paul George brick clutch free-throw after clutch free-throw or when he looks down the bench for help and sees guys like Batum, Rondo, Cousins, etc. We haven't figured out how to win yet, but being supported by Zach + Vuc seems pretty superior than that, IMO.

As a fan base, I think we're so stung from the past twenty years that we just no longer think we're good enough to attract anyone of note. If LaVine and Vuc were sitting in LA with a bunch of potential cap space, then I think most people would say "hey, that could actually be an intriguing destination."

Who knows what Kawhi wants, but I'm not sure we have a cast that is better or would allow him more rest. Getting Kawhi would be similar to getting LeBron in 2010 to me in the sense that I'd be all over it if we had any chance to make it happen, because I know it would give us a great shot at a ring, and at the same time, I'd also kind of hate it, because part of me would die rooting for those guys at that time period. Kawhi may actually be the least likable star in the NBA to me right now.

Totally agree with this part. He's a weird guy who is incredibly difficult to understand or read. I'd also hate it as a fan, but feel like it's something you'd absolutely have to do if there's a shot.

[HomoSapien]

I'll respectfully disagree. Our biggest draw is that we already have two All-Stars on the roster. Forming a super team clearly has become important to this generation. I'm not sure how many big markets can offer a max contract and already have two All-Stars in place, but I'm guessing the number is low. AKME were able to convince Donovon to come here, when no one thought he would. Clearly, they're good in the room so getting in the room has to be something we strive to do.

You'd have to make trades into someone else's cap space in order to have enough cap room to offer him a max, so there isn't any clear cut way to do that. If he opted in and was a FA next year we could clear a max by taking no salaries beyond this year.

Got it, thanks for clarrifying.

[CobyWhite0]

I'll respectfully disagree. Our biggest draw is that we already have two All-Stars on the roster. Forming a super team clearly has become important to this generation. I'm not sure how many big markets can offer a max contract and already have two All-Stars in place, but I'm guessing the number is low. AKME were able to convince Donovon to come here, when no one thought he would. Clearly, they're good in the room so getting in the room has to be something we strive to do.

You'd have to make trades into someone else's cap space in order to have enough cap room to offer him a max, so there isn't any clear cut way to do that. If he opted in and was a FA next year we could clear a max by taking no salaries beyond this year.

Kawhi's max for 2021-22 is $39,344,900. If we waive and stretch all of our FAs and get down to Vuc - Zach - Coby - Williams - Brown, we can create $36,945,603 in cap space.

It should be very easy to trade Brown into cap space or a TPE, since we can send enough cash to cover his entire salary. If we do that, we could actually create almost as much cap space this summer as we can next summer - either way we'd have Zach - Vuc - Coby - Williams as a starting point.

[HomoSapien]

I'll respectfully disagree. Our biggest draw is that we already have two All-Stars on the roster. Forming a super team clearly has become important to this generation. I'm not sure how many big markets can offer a max contract and already have two All-Stars in place, but I'm guessing the number is low. AKME were able to convince Donovon to come here, when no one thought he would. Clearly, they're good in the room so getting in the room has to be something we strive to do.

You'd have to make trades into someone else's cap space in order to have enough cap room to offer him a max, so there isn't any clear cut way to do that. If he opted in and was a FA next year we could clear a max by taking no salaries beyond this year.

Kawhi's max for 2021-22 is $39,344,900. If we waive and stretch all of our FAs and get down to Vuc - Zach - Coby - Williams - Brown, we can create $36,945,603 in cap space.

It should be very easy to trade Brown into cap space or a TPE, since we can send enough cash to cover his entire salary. If we do that, we could actually create almost as much cap space this summer as we can next summer - either way we'd have Zach - Vuc - Coby - Williams as a starting point.

To me, that seems like a much more intriguing roster than what the Clippers have even if you fill the rest of the spots with guys like Batum, Rondo, etc. like the Clippers have done.

[WindyCityBorn]

We are starting to get hints that Leonard is unhappy in LA. This guy has left two championship organizations, so at this point I have no idea what’s appealing to him, but being supported by our two All-Stars would at least reduce the burden on him and allow him to rest throughout the season.

I don’t understand, but appreciate, your continued optimism.

With the loss of draft picks and the subpar development of White, Williams, and Markkanen we might as well try and take big swings. As far as I'm concerned, it's the really the only option that makes sense because settling for the Dinwiddie's of the world isn't going to get us anywhere. As you've said, we've pained ourselves into a corner with the Vuc trade. It was a trade about trying to win, so that's exactly the type of roster we have to assemble.

But his team reached the WCF. Even if he were, theoretically, to leave, there is nothing about Kawhi’s career to suggest he’s interested in playing for a worse team than the one he’s on. Unless that team is in Los Angeles.

Is that true? I mean, he straight up left the Raptors for a worse team. Perhaps he thought it'd be easy in LA, especially with Paul George but he left a team that just won a championship for the unknown. He also burned bridges with arguably the most successful franchise of the modern era. Perhaps the only important thing to him is being in LA, but his decisions haven't been close to being the best basketball decisions.

We didn’t even make the play in. We have nothing unique to offer anyone except a max contract/bigger role to a young player who can’t get those things somewhere else.

We are not a free agency player for any established star.

I'll respectfully disagree. Our biggest draw is that we already have two All-Stars on the roster. Forming a super team clearly has become important to this generation. I'm not sure how many big markets can offer a max contract and already have two All-Stars in place, but I'm guessing the number is low. AKME were able to convince Donovon to come here, when no one thought he would. Clearly, they're good in the room so getting in the room has to be something we strive to do.

Are you seriously calling out Williams for subpar development when he hasn’t even had one off-season to develop, no normal training camp or season? That’s ridiculous. What exactly where you expecting? He was more developed than what I expected based on his draft profile.

[HomoSapien]

Are you seriously calling out Williams for subpar development when he hasn’t even had one off-season to develop, no normal training camp or season? That’s ridiculous. What exactly where you expecting? He was more developed than what I expected based on his draft profile.

All that is fair as to why Williams played how he did, but it's also okay to acknowledge that he looked pretty damn mediocre.

He's not aggressive, he's not an otherworldly crazy athlete, and unless he has some insane work ethic he seems headed down the quality role player path. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying he's useless, garbage, a must-trade, etc. But I do think we'd be in a better position if he came out like gangbusters because then we'd have a clear path towards contention be it through Williams developing or through us using his potential in a trade for a third piece. Right now, I'm don't feel hugely optimistic of him being able to provide either things.

[sco]

Are you seriously calling out Williams for subpar development when he hasn’t even had one off-season to develop, no normal training camp or season? That’s ridiculous. What exactly where you expecting? He was more developed than what I expected based on his draft profile.

All that is fair as to why Williams played how he did, but it's also okay to acknowledge that he looked pretty damn mediocre.

He's not aggressive, he's not an otherworldly crazy athlete, and unless he has some insane work ethic he seems headed down the quality role player path. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying he's useless, garbage, a must-trade, etc. But I do think we'd be in a better position if he came out like gangbusters because then we'd have a clear path towards contention be it through Williams developing or through us using his potential in a trade for a third piece. Right now, I'm don't feel hugely optimistic of him being able to provide either things.

If you look at his lack of aggressiveness, in isolation I can't argue he disappointed. That said, I'm willing to cut him some slack on that front from the POV that he was essentially the 4th or 5th option getting shots behind Zach and other guys who were hunting for their shots, and while they all probably told him to look for his shot more, I didn't see him passing up a bunch of open shots (except when he found teammates with better ones). If he was on a team with a bunch of scrubs, it would be a different story.

Regardless, he's got a LOT of developmental ground to cover before he has me thinking "allstar". We'll see what we he learns this offseason - Does he "Jimmy" it or "Lauri" it?

[HomoSapien]

Are you seriously calling out Williams for subpar development when he hasn’t even had one off-season to develop, no normal training camp or season? That’s ridiculous. What exactly where you expecting? He was more developed than what I expected based on his draft profile.

All that is fair as to why Williams played how he did, but it's also okay to acknowledge that he looked pretty damn mediocre.

He's not aggressive, he's not an otherworldly crazy athlete, and unless he has some insane work ethic he seems headed down the quality role player path. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying he's useless, garbage, a must-trade, etc. But I do think we'd be in a better position if he came out like gangbusters because then we'd have a clear path towards contention be it through Williams developing or through us using his potential in a trade for a third piece. Right now, I'm don't feel hugely optimistic of him being able to provide either things.

If you look at his lack of aggressiveness, in isolation I can't argue he disappointed. That said, I'm willing to cut him some slack on that front from the POV that he was essentially the 4th or 5th option getting shots behind Zach and other guys who were hunting for their shots, and while they all probably told him to look for his shot more, I didn't see him passing up a bunch of open shots (except when he found teammates with better ones). If he was on a team with a bunch of scrubs, it would be a different story.

Regardless, he's got a LOT of developmental ground to cover before he has me thinking "allstar". We'll see what we he learns this offseason - Does he "Jimmy" it or "Lauri" it?

Again, I COMPLETELY agree. I understand why he didn't have the best rookie season he theoretically could have had. I'm still looking forward to what he does next year. Putting that all aside, my primary point is that the type of season he had doesn't help us from a team-building perspective.

If he was in the ROY race, then we'd all be optimistically talking about how we need to develop him into that third piece or we'd be talking about using him as a trade chip to acquire that guy. Since neither seems likely for next season, I think our best bet for team building is going hard after the Lowrys, Leonards, etc.

[dougthonus]

Gosh, I think I'm going to say yes and I know that sounds crazy, but this isn't the uber-talented Clippers team that's bench was anchored by Lou Williams and Montrezl Harrell after Leonard and George. Who is currently the Clippers third-best player? Reggie Jackson? A guy that likely can't afford to bring back? This Clippers squad is sort of a hodgepodge of once talented players who are on the brink of aging out of being rotation guys. You have to wonder what Leonard is thinking as he watches Paul George brick clutch free-throw after clutch free-throw or when he looks down the bench for help and sees guys like Batum, Rondo, Cousins, etc. We haven't figured out how to win yet, but being supported by Zach + Vuc seems pretty superior than that, IMO.

As a fan base, I think we're so stung from the past twenty years that we just no longer think we're good enough to attract anyone of note. If LaVine and Vuc were sitting in LA with a bunch of potential cap space, then I think most people would say "hey, that could actually be an intriguing destination."

The Clippers without Kawhi, just beat the Jazz to get the to the WCF. I don't think Kawhi would look at the Bulls this off-season and feel they are better. Maybe next off-season if we have a good year it is more of a possibility.

The Bulls still couldn't even make the play-in tournament. I would hazard a guess that no one really cares about the Bulls having two all-stars, because our two all-stars probably won't both be all-stars this year, and Vuc quite honestly has largely made it because he's a center and it's still 3 total all-star appearances in 17 seasons for these guys combined.

I just don't think NBA players look at our roster and see talent.

Totally agree with this part. He's a weird guy who is incredibly difficult to understand or read. I'd also hate it as a fan, but feel like it's something you'd absolutely have to do if there's a shot.

Agree completely.

[dougthonus]

I'll respectfully disagree. Our biggest draw is that we already have two All-Stars on the roster. Forming a super team clearly has become important to this generation. I'm not sure how many big markets can offer a max contract and already have two All-Stars in place, but I'm guessing the number is low. AKME were able to convince Donovon to come here, when no one thought he would. Clearly, they're good in the room so getting in the room has to be something we strive to do.

You'd have to make trades into someone else's cap space in order to have enough cap room to offer him a max, so there isn't any clear cut way to do that. If he opted in and was a FA next year we could clear a max by taking no salaries beyond this year.

Kawhi's max for 2021-22 is $39,344,900. If we waive and stretch all of our FAs and get down to Vuc - Zach - Coby - Williams - Brown, we can create $36,945,603 in cap space.

It should be very easy to trade Brown into cap space or a TPE, since we can send enough cash to cover his entire salary. If we do that, we could actually create almost as much cap space this summer as we can next summer - either way we'd have Zach - Vuc - Coby - Williams as a starting point.

This is true, and I do think you could probably find a home for Troy Brown.

One thing to note is the the timing makes that a bit tricky. To waive/stretch Thad/Sato on their non-guaranteed rate, you have to do so prior to FA opening and before even knowing if Kawhi will opt out (let alone if he'd come here if he does). If you do that and don't land Kawhi, it likely becomes a big mistake. You aren't likely to improve your team by freeing up their money and signing non star FAs because they're both on reasonable deals, and there aren't a lot of FAs available to take that gamble especially if Kawhi is not in the mix.

If you could trade one or both into cap room though, that would make a lot of challenges go away, and I think there's some chance you would be able to do that for a team that isn't going to make huge moves, especially if you send cash or a 2nd rounder.

[WindyCityBorn]

Gosh, I think I'm going to say yes and I know that sounds crazy, but this isn't the uber-talented Clippers team that's bench was anchored by Lou Williams and Montrezl Harrell after Leonard and George. Who is currently the Clippers third-best player? Reggie Jackson? A guy that likely can't afford to bring back? This Clippers squad is sort of a hodgepodge of once talented players who are on the brink of aging out of being rotation guys. You have to wonder what Leonard is thinking as he watches Paul George brick clutch free-throw after clutch free-throw or when he looks down the bench for help and sees guys like Batum, Rondo, Cousins, etc. We haven't figured out how to win yet, but being supported by Zach + Vuc seems pretty superior than that, IMO.

As a fan base, I think we're so stung from the past twenty years that we just no longer think we're good enough to attract anyone of note. If LaVine and Vuc were sitting in LA with a bunch of potential cap space, then I think most people would say "hey, that could actually be an intriguing destination."

The Clippers without Kawhi, just beat the Jazz to get the to the WCF. I don't think Kawhi would look at the Bulls this off-season and feel they are better. Maybe next off-season if we have a good year it is more of a possibility.

The Bulls still couldn't even make the play-in tournament. I would hazard a guess that no one really cares about the Bulls having two all-stars, because our two all-stars probably won't both be all-stars this year, and Vuc quite honestly has largely made it because he's a center and it's still 3 total all-star appearances in 17 seasons for these guys combined.

I just don't think NBA players look at our roster and see talent.

Totally agree with this part. He's a weird guy who is incredibly difficult to understand or read. I'd also hate it as a fan, but feel like it's something you'd absolutely have to do if there's a shot.

Agree completely.

If we play over .500 basketball and they both put numbers similar to this previous season they will both make it. The winning part is key. They both absolutely deserved it this year. Also we know the players think highly of Zach.

[dougthonus]

If we play over .500 basketball and they both put numbers similar to this previous season they will both make it. The winning part is key. They both absolutely deserved it this year. Also we know the players think highly of Zach.

Maybe, as I've said before, if you put together any 2 all-stars at random, you have about a 95% chance of landing a better duo than our duo. I would bet that only one makes it next year, and I don't think a star looks at Zach/Vuc and sees "big 3".

[sco]

If we play over .500 basketball and they both put numbers similar to this previous season they will both make it. The winning part is key. They both absolutely deserved it this year. Also we know the players think highly of Zach.

Maybe, as I've said before, if you put together any 2 all-stars at random, you have about a 95% chance of landing a better duo than our duo. I would bet that only one makes it next year, and I don't think a star looks at Zach/Vuc and sees "big 3".

Maybe, but some guys want to be "the man", and might see a perfect situation.

[WindyCityBorn]

If we play over .500 basketball and they both put numbers similar to this previous season they will both make it. The winning part is key. They both absolutely deserved it this year. Also we know the players think highly of Zach.

Maybe, as I've said before, if you put together any 2 all-stars at random, you have about a 95% chance of landing a better duo than our duo. I would bet that only one makes it next year, and I don't think a star looks at Zach/Vuc and sees "big 3".

Do you need a Big 3 meaning 3 all-stars? Lakers didn’t have a Big 3 and none of the teams left in the playoffs do either. Zach would excellent 1b or 2nd option and Vuc a great 3rd option. I think our problem is the pitiful state of the supporting players. None of them are even good starters yet.

[dougthonus]

Do you need a Big 3 meaning 3 all-stars? Lakers didn’t have a Big 3 and none of the teams left in the playoffs do either. Zach would excellent 1b or 2nd option and Vuc a great 3rd option. I think our problem is the pitiful state of the supporting players. None of them are even good starters yet.

Usually when stars get together there are no good supporting players (or maybe 1), so I don't know that's a big concern. Also agree lots of teams don't have a big 3. The only big 3 team in the league really is probably the Nets. Zach/Vuc are probably similarly good to whomever you view the 2nd/3rd guys on the Suns (Paul, Booker, Ayton) or Bucks (Middleton / Holiday).

I think the Bulls situation is potentially attractive, if this were a great FA year, I'd take the shot at waiving everyone in advance, opening max room and rolling the dice.