King4Day wrote: I'd pass unless he's taking the vet min. I don't believe he plays D.
Not a good defender at all. But definitely would be a Saric upgrade on the offensive side. If we swapped Saric and #29 for a Markkanen S/T for about $10/per, I'd be all for that.
I'm with you on replacing Saric brother! And Markannen would be an offensive upgrade to Saric for sure. Although neither really plays defense though. And what's worse is that Markannen will be needing an extension this summer too! I surely wouldn't give up a draft pick for him currently with those considerations, As draft picks still represent 4 yrs of relatively low cost contractual control. This will be huge for us going forward with so many max contracts looming soon. Plus, If were being candid, You could just as easily get a better overall version of Markannen for only a few million in the 2nd round in Jay Huff! http://www.tankathon.com/players/jay-huff
** Both videos are only about a minuteand a half. Please check out both, And tell me (for the overall cost) who would you rather have? Markannen with no defense at around 14-18 ( market value extension)? Or Jay Huff at 1-2 million on a 4 yr controlled rookie scale contract? Huff has also played at both the 4 and 5 spots too, So he'd be interchangable with any of Smith, Ayton or even Saric if necessary.
Ideally, This off season we could perhaps trade Saric and Crowder and a future protected first to Detroit for Jerami Grant and a 2nd? Or to Houston- Saric, Crowder and a future protected first for Christian Wood, DJ Augustine, and a 2022 first (least value)? But regardless, We need to dump Saric and upgrade with anyone better!
I'm not trading Crowder this offseason. He's too important to our culture and will help bring FAs to Phoenix.
It will be interesting to see what Markkanen gets in FA this offseason, he's had a down year and there is a really deep big man market, at both PF and C. It would be tough to justify Markkanen getting more than Christian Wood got last offseason ($13.6m). If Chicago was interested in a S/T at that price of Markkanen for Saric+#29 I would definitely do it. Yes, it's less cap flexibility in the short term, but its probably pretty close to the best value you can get for Saric right now, improves the roster and either Markkanen turns into a good quality starting 4, or a great bench scorer, and is on a very trade friendly contract down the line. If we could move off Carter in that deal, or in a separate deal, it's essentially a wash salary wise and we get better basketball wise.
In terms of a 2nd round prospect being as good or comparable to Makkanen, I think that's naive. While he may have all the skills and tools, he's a 2nd rounder for a reason and while you can find gems in the 2nd, I don't think we should be planning on a 2nd rounder being part of our rotation when our lottery pick last year has yet to crack it (That says more about our rotation than it does Smith, for the record). Furthermore, the Suns do not have a 2nd rounder as it stands and so would have to give up an asset in order to even make a 2nd round selection.
We could always buy a second rounder from someone. Many teams don't have the roster space, or want to draft and stash. But I don't think we need to grab a second rounder.
RunDogGun wrote:We could always buy a second rounder from someone. Many teams don't have the roster space, or want to draft and stash. But I don't think we need to grab a second rounder.
Or could trade out of the first round for a current and future second. Save some cash
I guess a lot depends on what players are there in the bottom of R1 and potentially in R2. Also if there is a trade partner
RunDogGun wrote:We could always buy a second rounder from someone. Many teams don't have the roster space, or want to draft and stash. But I don't think we need to grab a second rounder.
Or could trade out of the first round for a current and future second. Save some cash
I guess a lot depends on what players are there in the bottom of R1 and potentially in R2. Also if there is a trade partner
Normally I would be fine with that depending on who is available. The thing is, right now we have the best environment for rookies to develop within. Getting a decent option even at #29 this year might be the best move for us.
Barkley6 wrote: Not a good defender at all. But definitely would be a Saric upgrade on the offensive side. If we swapped Saric and #29 for a Markkanen S/T for about $10/per, I'd be all for that.
I'm with you on replacing Saric brother! And Markannen would be an offensive upgrade to Saric for sure. Although neither really plays defense though. And what's worse is that Markannen will be needing an extension this summer too! I surely wouldn't give up a draft pick for him currently with those considerations, As draft picks still represent 4 yrs of relatively low cost contractual control. This will be huge for us going forward with so many max contracts looming soon. Plus, If were being candid, You could just as easily get a better overall version of Markannen for only a few million in the 2nd round in Jay Huff! http://www.tankathon.com/players/jay-huff
** Both videos are only about a minuteand a half. Please check out both, And tell me (for the overall cost) who would you rather have? Markannen with no defense at around 14-18 ( market value extension)? Or Jay Huff at 1-2 million on a 4 yr controlled rookie scale contract? Huff has also played at both the 4 and 5 spots too, So he'd be interchangable with any of Smith, Ayton or even Saric if necessary.
Ideally, This off season we could perhaps trade Saric and Crowder and a future protected first to Detroit for Jerami Grant and a 2nd? Or to Houston- Saric, Crowder and a future protected first for Christian Wood, DJ Augustine, and a 2022 first (least value)? But regardless, We need to dump Saric and upgrade with anyone better!
I'm not trading Crowder this offseason. He's too important to our culture and will help bring FAs to Phoenix.
It will be interesting to see what Markkanen gets in FA this offseason, he's had a down year and there is a really deep big man market, at both PF and C. It would be tough to justify Markkanen getting more than Christian Wood got last offseason ($13.6m). If Chicago was interested in a S/T at that price of Markkanen for Saric+#29 I would definitely do it. Yes, it's less cap flexibility in the short term, but its probably pretty close to the best value you can get for Saric right now, improves the roster and either Markkanen turns into a good quality starting 4, or a great bench scorer, and is on a very trade friendly contract down the line. If we could move off Carter in that deal, or in a separate deal, it's essentially a wash salary wise and we get better basketball wise.
In terms of a 2nd round prospect being as good or comparable to Makkanen, I think that's naive. While he may have all the skills and tools, he's a 2nd rounder for a reason and while you can find gems in the 2nd, I don't think we should be planning on a 2nd rounder being part of our rotation when our lottery pick last year has yet to crack it (That says more about our rotation than it does Smith, for the record). Furthermore, the Suns do not have a 2nd rounder as it stands and so would have to give up an asset in order to even make a 2nd round selection.
I'm not trading Crowder this offseason. He's too important to our culture and will help bring FAs to Phoenix.
I don't know how important he's shown to be throughout the playoffs, And especially in this pivotal series he's been pretty much MIA unfortunately. He along with Paul were predominantly brought in to help lead us and add toughness, and poise resulting from playoff experience. But neither have shown much of anything aside from struggling and inconsistencies. Crowder has been streaky at best, And provided shaky to subpar defense when we've really needed him most.IF Crowder or Paul for that matter had done what we brought them on to do, Then we'd be resting up for the finals already! Now i'll concede that the suns may keep him?( for veteran depth/playoff experience) and he may still play a role in our cultural progresssion, But let's not minimize the overall impact that Jerami Grant would've provided us with either. Also, To date, Paul and Crowder have not yet proven to provide any strong influence in attracting free agents here, As they proven to attract none when we first added them, Otherwise we wouldn't have had to settle for resigning Saric, Moore, etc. What other key free agents professed interest in signing with us whenst word came out that Crowder was signing with us? What will attract higher caliber key free agents however would be winning ( which we've accomplished) as well as cap flexibility (THE MONEY)!!! So the Crowder solitarily attracting free agents is an illegitimate argument.
It will be interesting to see what Markkanen gets in FA this offseason, he's had a down year and there is a really deep big man market, at both PF and C.
I agree with you man! It will be interesting to see. His qualifying offer was already 9+ million. And if we're being honest, He's really only slightly better statistically in a few categories: https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=markkla01&player_id2=saricda01 Now consider that we're talking about trading for a slightly better version of the player that we're currently trying to offload, And for a potentially more significant salary commitment, Particularly when we need to be creating more cap flexibility with our imminent very sizable core extensions looming. What if some team that couldn't normally attract free agents, decides to overpay for Markannen in order to dissuade us from matching? Then we've boxed ourselves into a corner wherein we overpay ourselves to match their offer to keep him, Or we just let him walk, And as a result,We surrender a cost controlled asset (late first) for basically nothing! That just seems like poor asset management to me personally.
It would be tough to justify Markkanen getting more than Christian Wood got last offseason ($13.6m)
So then, Are you conceding that Wood has been better than Markannen? Regardless, Just because it would be tough to justify, Doesn't mean it's an impossibility that it will happen. Small market teams and/or undesirable destinations have time and time again proven to overpay to bring in perceived talent that they couldn't otherwise attract.Whether that be larger per yr amounts, Or a longer deal. But IT DOES HAPPEN! We currently are in no position to get into a bidding war with another team that may indirectly cause us to lose another core piece due to having to potentially overpay in order to keep a player that we just traded for! Just not good business, When cap flexibility is obviously paramount for us!
Yes, it's less cap flexibility in the short term,
But that's exactly my point! Cap flexibility is absolutely paramount for us right now, Because the short term IS when Paul will need to be resigned, Ayton AND Bridges max( Ayton) and near max extensions (Bridges) will be due, Saric and Crowder ( *both underperforming) together equate to another 20 million still on the books when we'll need to be extending Ayton and Bridges. So depending upon what teams' may bid for Markannen in the market, Trading for him could quite possibly cost us significantly more than even Saric is costing us now. That only further restricts our critical cap flexibility.And If we do overpay to keep him, And it indirectly forces us to lose Bridges or another key piece, Was it still worth it? Just doesn't seem (at least to me) like an acceptable risk given our current salary obligations. And we absolutely shouldn't be looking to attach the very little ( cost controlled) assets we have just to dump Saric! That only compounds our already bad decision to resign him.
its probably pretty close to the best value you can get for Saric right now, improves the roster and either Markkanen turns into a good quality starting 4, or a great bench scorer, and is on a very trade friendly contract down the line.
The value is really in the eye of the beholder at this point with Saric. I mean I have discussed saric trades, Wherein we get an equivalent expiring contract and a late first or 2nd round pick. Other trades wherein we swap Saric for an expiring contract of similiar value and a younger player with upside. Basically there were a number of teams still willing to take a swing on Saric and return a comparable expiring contract ( cap flexibility to sign a higher caliber free agent perhaps)? and an attached asset. Personally i'd view getting off his contract with an expiring contract and an asset solid value. Especially when it provides us with critical cap flexibility, And returns a cheap cost controlled asset.
In terms of a 2nd round prospect being as good or comparable to Makkanen, I think that's naive. While he may have all the skills and tools, he's a 2nd rounder for a reason and while you can find gems in the 2nd, I don't think we should be planning on a 2nd rounder being part of our rotation
I have to say, I hear this argument all the time, And for my part, find it tired and highly subjective. If we're being fair, All players at one point were rookies seeking development and progression, Markannen included. So then the argument becomes value( salary cost) vs. production( on court impact) right ? But when saying that you think it's naive to consider that Huff as a 2nd round prospect could replicate similiar production or impact. It's all highly hypothetical and situational. But for arguments sake, let's compare them at the same point in college: http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=jay-huff--lauri-markkanen
Now Markannen does slightly beat huff in points, 3pt rate, slightly less turnovers and fouls, And a better 3 pt percentage. However, Huff beats Markannen in Rebounds, assists, steals, BLOCKS, FG%, FT%, TS%, EFG%, PER, DSW/40, WS/40, DRTNG, DBPM, BPM.
So Markannen was slightly better offensively from three, But Huff was basically better at most everything else, And especially defensively. And when Ayton sits, What's our biggest weakness again? post defense, rim protection, and rebounding. Aside from Ayton, We currently have no bigs that can provide defense rim protection and post defense. Neither Saric or Kaminsky provide that, But then again, Neither does Markannen. Huff on the other hand would actually bring defense, rim protection, size, length, and athleticism, All highly translatable attributes,Things our frontcourt is lacking, And at a fraction of the price being a 2nd round prospect. in trading for Markannen, All we'd really be doing is slightly upgrading Saric with yet another "one dimensional big" that provides no defense for a 7 fter!!! And at a higher obligatory financial risk than Saric himself.
So, 2nd round prospect or not, His statistical comparison would already indicate not just a very comparable offensive projection, But additionally with a much better defensive projection too! So saying he couldn't replicate or have comparable impact as Markannen currently is silly and highly debatable and subjective. All in all, It can neither be proven or disproven either way until we see him actually play in the league. He does though represent an athletic, long, defensive, mobile big with a high IQ with the proven ability to hit the three. So given his versatile defensive skill set and floor spacing capabilities, As well as his size and mobility, I think it's only reasonable to consider that he could be part of our rotation.
Furthermore, the Suns do not have a 2nd rounder as it stands and so would have to give up an asset in order to even make a 2nd round selection.
But would we though??? There are a number of teams with an absurd number of picks in this draft. It would cost us nothing to trade back, the 29th pick for two 2nds perhaps? Or perhaps we swap a future protected 2nd for one in this draft? Do we really think that so many teams possessing 4-6+ picks in this draft will look to add them all? There are many really cheap opportunities to add a 2nd round pick in this draft more than others. And even if we do purchase or trade for one, The overall cost would be very minimal at best due to the saturation of multiple teams with multiple picks in this particular draft. Bottom line, For my part, I'd much rather trade Saric for cap flexibility (expirings) and returning assets than to move him for a similiarly redundant player that doesn't address our defensive/rebounding issues, will inevitably cost more( in the restricted free agent market) than what we're already paying Saric currently, Just for us to keep him, AND attach assets to do so. But nothing wrong with a difference in perspective of course either!
Clipps are not only fighting for their lives, they see Giannis going down and know this championship road just lost a huge roadblock. It's absolutely anyones now.
Please, please, **** rebound and hit your shots tonight.
If we had cap space I might say I hope Ibaka turns down his player option and signs with us for the MLE..this may be a possibility to use that MLE since Ayton/Bridges new contracts won't kick in next year, especially if Paul also took less, though I still hope he picks up his player option and we can assess his value after next year.
bwgood77 wrote:If we had cap space I might say I hope Ibaka turns down his player option and signs with us for the MLE..this may be a possibility to use that MLE since Ayton/Bridges new contracts won't kick in next year, especially if Paul also took less, though I still hope he picks up his player option and we can assess his value after next year.
He already has his ring. Unless we beat w/e the Clips are playing him, I don't see it happening. We need to shoot for guys who are still looking: Kanter, BroLo, etc. I guess if they think Marc Gasol has anything left, he might sign to stick it to the LAL.
Hate it all you want but I will stand with this statement.
If Suns lose Craig or Nader or even Cam Johnson (mainly due to salary space for Payne and Paul)
I would look at Josh Jackson. I think he has the two way game now to fit. With Monty and CP3, he would also benefit highly in his understanding of the game. I watched a lot of Piston games for Jackson and his defense and athleticism still remains very good. Does he still take dumb shots? Of course. But that's where CP3 and Monty come in. Josh Jackson's defense is highly valuable today because he can cover 1 to 4 due to his build, athleticism and energy. I actually envision him being a Will Barton type in a few years. His biggest weakness were exposed because Suns lacked true veterans, mentors and proper coaching staff that could get him to buy in.
Besides I really enjoyed the Jackson and Ayton connection.
Contract wise he's on a very friendly deal and likely to be for the next few years. And before haters chime... Also think of Cameron Payne. The guy was out of the league and unwanted... Josh Jackson is more athletically gifted and has the traits to fit to what Suns are trying to do... Basically have versatile wings who can switch to 1 to 5.
thamadkant wrote:Hate it all you want but I will stand with this statement.
If Suns lose Craig or Nader or even Cam Johnson (mainly due to salary space for Payne and Paul)
I would look at Josh Jackson. I think he has the two way game now to fit. With Monty and CP3, he would also benefit highly in his understanding of the game. I watched a lot of Piston games for Jackson and his defense and athleticism still remains very good. Does he still take dumb shots? Of course. But that's where CP3 and Monty come in. Josh Jackson's defense is highly valuable today because he can cover 1 to 4 due to his build, athleticism and energy. I actually envision him being a Will Barton type in a few years. His biggest weakness were exposed because Suns lacked true veterans, mentors and proper coaching staff that could get him to buy in.
Besides I really enjoyed the Jackson and Ayton connection.
Contract wise he's on a very friendly deal and likely to be for the next few years. And before haters chime... Also think of Cameron Payne. The guy was out of the league and unwanted... Josh Jackson is more athletically gifted and has the traits to fit to what Suns are trying to do... Basically have versatile wings who can switch to 1 to 5.
"Never argue with an idiot. You'll never convince the idiot that you're correct, and bystanders won't be able to tell who's who." - Mark Twain
thamadkant wrote:Hate it all you want but I will stand with this statement.
If Suns lose Craig or Nader or even Cam Johnson (mainly due to salary space for Payne and Paul)
I would look at Josh Jackson. I think he has the two way game now to fit. With Monty and CP3, he would also benefit highly in his understanding of the game. I watched a lot of Piston games for Jackson and his defense and athleticism still remains very good. Does he still take dumb shots? Of course. But that's where CP3 and Monty come in. Josh Jackson's defense is highly valuable today because he can cover 1 to 4 due to his build, athleticism and energy. I actually envision him being a Will Barton type in a few years. His biggest weakness were exposed because Suns lacked true veterans, mentors and proper coaching staff that could get him to buy in.
Besides I really enjoyed the Jackson and Ayton connection.
Contract wise he's on a very friendly deal and likely to be for the next few years. And before haters chime... Also think of Cameron Payne. The guy was out of the league and unwanted... Josh Jackson is more athletically gifted and has the traits to fit to what Suns are trying to do... Basically have versatile wings who can switch to 1 to 5.
How can you compare Cam Payne with Josh Jackson? Do you know any off the court problem from Cam Payne?
Josh Jackson was throwing up in a practice because he was drinking and smoking **** the night before...he is truly legendary!
He is not good enough to worth all the headaches that go with him. He is a (not very good) high usage player, and we do not need that. We need at the wings what we already have.
All our wings are smart, good 3p shooters, good defenders and low usage players.
Why stop at Josh jackson? Let's also bring in Bender, Isiash Thomas, Canaan, Robin Lopez, knight, Goodwin, Chriss, Len, and my all time favorite guard Kendall Marshall. With Monty and Jones at the helm I am certain they can improve that roster and get them to at least WCF birth. Plus they would be much cheaper to sign.
SunsRback4Good wrote:Why stop at Josh jackson? Let's also bring in Bender, Isiash Thomas, Canaan, Robin Lopez, knight, Goodwin, Chriss, Len, and my all time favorite guard Kendall Marshall. With Monty and Jones at the helm I am certain they can improve that roster and get them to at least WCF birth. Plus they would be much cheaper to sign.
Len actually wouldn't be badas the backup 5. He's better than Kaminsky. Bender is still young. Put him in the G League.
