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[Yallbecrazy]

Charm, my man, if you could show any clips that *don't involve dunks* but show how athletic you think he is, I'm here for it.

But like I said many pages ago, Blake Griffin won a dunk contest, and he can't defend anyone. David Lee (who I brought up several pages ago) was a great athlete and dunker (I think he won the McDonald's dunk contest once upon a time) but he was slow-footed laterally and just a terrible defender because of it (even though he played center for the Knicks for years!).



You can be explosive vertically like Obi or Amare and still be a terrible defender. You can also be incredibly fast up and down the court like a James Wiseman and be a terrible defender. So far, just showing us examples of dunks (and literally it's the same dunk over and over again with like CIA-level zoom) does not convince anyone he's a great lateral athlete. You need to be a lateral athlete to defend at a high level in the NBA. You need to move your feet quickly side-to-side. I think you know this.

Where are those videos?

It's part lateral quickness, but more footwork, intelligence, and coordination in my opinion. Marc Gasol was a great perimeter defender for a big and he definitely didn't have much lateral quickness, just smart and never put a foot wrong.

Sengun shows quick smart feet with his post work and he has tremendous all round BBIQ on both ends of the floor so the potential is there to develop into a decent perimeter defender with experience.

[Charm]

Charm, my man, if you could show any clips that *don't involve dunks* but show how athletic you think he is, I'm here for it.

But like I said many pages ago, Blake Griffin won a dunk contest, and he can't defend anyone. David Lee (who I brought up several pages ago) was a great athlete and dunker (I think he won the McDonald's dunk contest once upon a time) but he was slow-footed laterally and just a terrible defender because of it (even though he played center for the Knicks for years!).

You can be explosive vertically like Obi or Amare and still be a terrible defender. You can also be incredibly fast up and down the court like a James Wiseman and be a terrible defender. So far, just showing us examples of dunks (and literally it's the same dunk over and over again with like CIA-level zoom) does not convince anyone he's a great lateral athlete. You need to be a lateral athlete to defend at a high level in the NBA. You need to move your feet quickly side-to-side. I think you know this.

Where are those videos?

I mean, if we think his defensive question marks largely have to do with lateral mobility, then that's great, we're on the same page. He's certainly not a flawless defender...few players are at age 18. It largely comes down to whether you think his current issues with lateral quickness are more a matter of footwork and fundamentals (likely to improve with experience) or reflect an innate lack of quick-twitch athleticism (unlikely to improve with experience). Based on his body type (fairly low center of gravity) and reasonably quick reflexes in other contexts I'm tempted to think that at least marginal improvement is likely as he gains experience. But I'm happy to agree to disagree on that.

Hopefully you agree, though, that saying a guy like David Lee is quite a bit more athletic than Sengun is verging on absurd. Sengun does a lot of things well athletically...he's pretty quick off the floor, can jump off either foot, can spin quickly in the post, can lengthen his stride on dribble drives, and can use his strength effectively in the post and on the glass. He's not a below-the-rim dinosaur or a one-dimensional pogo stick. He has weaknesses, but it's hard to believe that the plusses don't outweigh the minuses.

Also, more of a specific point, but I think there's something to be said for being quick with the ball in the open court. A lot of bigs look great sprinting in a straight line, but add a basketball to the equation and all of a sudden they have two left feet. Sengun's ability to lead the fast break, keeping his head up and smoothly handling the ball with either hand, is not something you normally see in an 18-year-old his size.

[EvanZ]

Hopefully you agree, though, that saying a guy like David Lee is quite a bit more athletic than Sengun is verging on absurd.

David Lee won a dunk contest man!

Watch on YouTube

[Nuntius]

Sengun shows quick smart feet with his post work and he has tremendous all round BBIQ on both ends of the floor so the potential is there to develop into a decent perimeter defender with experience.

True but it's important to note that athleticisim and awareness doesn't necessarily work the same on offense and on defense. You can see it with Garuba. Defensively, he is a great athlete with amazing awareness. Offensively, he is much stiffer as an athlete and his awareness isn't as special as it is on the other end.

[Charm]

Sengun shows quick smart feet with his post work and he has tremendous all round BBIQ on both ends of the floor so the potential is there to develop into a decent perimeter defender with experience.

True but it's important to note that athleticisim and awareness doesn't necessarily work the same on offense and on defense. You can see it with Garuba. Defensively, he is a great athlete with amazing awareness. Offensively, he is much stiffer as an athlete and his awareness isn't as special as it is on the other end.

How much of that is ballhandling though? I tend to think that without the ball (or as a stationary passer) Garuba shows reasonably good awareness offensively. Or at least, reasonably good for a teenager on a team full of seasoned veterans.

[Nuntius]

Sengun shows quick smart feet with his post work and he has tremendous all round BBIQ on both ends of the floor so the potential is there to develop into a decent perimeter defender with experience.

True but it's important to note that athleticisim and awareness doesn't necessarily work the same on offense and on defense. You can see it with Garuba. Defensively, he is a great athlete with amazing awareness. Offensively, he is much stiffer as an athlete and his awareness isn't as special as it is on the other end.

How much of that is ballhandling though? I tend to think that without the ball (or as a stationary passer) Garuba shows reasonably good awareness offensively. Or at least, reasonably good for a teenager on a team full of seasoned veterans.

A part of it is ball-handling but I'm also talking about when he gets the ball as a roller and finishes. He seems stiffer athletically when he finishes at the basket than when he's defending on the other end. I think he's just not sure of his hands yet so he's more careful/slower with the ball. He has to think about it more whereas defense comes natural.

[EvanZ]

Personally I think Garuba's athleticism is a bit overrated in general. I see him get beat off the dribble a lot, but he is able to recover with his length. I question how much he can get away with it in the NBA. I think he's a bit similar to Kevon Looney type defender. So is Scottie Barnes tbh.

[DaddyCool19]

Who would be the best big man pairing for him out of the teams that are picking from 9-14 (where he probably gets drafted)?

[Nuntius]

Who would be the best big man pairing for him out of the teams that are picking from 9-14 (where he probably gets drafted)?

I don't think it's the best but I'd love to see him in OKC next to Poku.

[Clawed]

Kevin Pelton (one of those advanced stat guys) often talks about how steals for bigman is a stat that often translates to good defense into the NBA for some reason likely due to it reflecting how good a player is at reading defenses and anticipation. Sengun had the most steals for any bigman in his league. He also was top 3 in blocks but if you don't like blocks, Kuzey Kilic is an international scout and he claims Sengun is a top 2 rimprotector in his league. There is a chance that he can be a plus defender in this league and it is unlikely he will be as bad as Kanter, JV, or DeMarcus Cousins etc.

[EvanZ]

Who would be the best big man pairing for him out of the teams that are picking from 9-14 (where he probably gets drafted)?

I don't think it's the best but I'd love to see him in OKC next to Poku.

Same. Would be a fun combo.

[nolang1]

Charm, my man, if you could show any clips that *don't involve dunks* but show how athletic you think he is, I'm here for it.

But like I said many pages ago, Blake Griffin won a dunk contest, and he can't defend anyone. David Lee (who I brought up several pages ago) was a great athlete and dunker (I think he won the McDonald's dunk contest once upon a time) but he was slow-footed laterally and just a terrible defender because of it (even though he played center for the Knicks for years!).

You can be explosive vertically like Obi or Amare and still be a terrible defender. You can also be incredibly fast up and down the court like a James Wiseman and be a terrible defender. So far, just showing us examples of dunks (and literally it's the same dunk over and over again with like CIA-level zoom) does not convince anyone he's a great lateral athlete. You need to be a lateral athlete to defend at a high level in the NBA. You need to move your feet quickly side-to-side. I think you know this.

Where are those videos?

Wait so you just argued yourself into a circle where the extent to which Sengun is not a prototypical NBA center physically isn't as important as his defensive instincts, which his great blocks and steals numbers he amassed while playing in a professional league at 18 point to.

[EvanZ]

Charm, my man, if you could show any clips that *don't involve dunks* but show how athletic you think he is, I'm here for it.

But like I said many pages ago, Blake Griffin won a dunk contest, and he can't defend anyone. David Lee (who I brought up several pages ago) was a great athlete and dunker (I think he won the McDonald's dunk contest once upon a time) but he was slow-footed laterally and just a terrible defender because of it (even though he played center for the Knicks for years!).

You can be explosive vertically like Obi or Amare and still be a terrible defender. You can also be incredibly fast up and down the court like a James Wiseman and be a terrible defender. So far, just showing us examples of dunks (and literally it's the same dunk over and over again with like CIA-level zoom) does not convince anyone he's a great lateral athlete. You need to be a lateral athlete to defend at a high level in the NBA. You need to move your feet quickly side-to-side. I think you know this.

Where are those videos?

Wait so you just argued yourself into a circle where the extent to which Sengun is not a prototypical NBA center physically isn't as important as his defensive instincts, which his great blocks and steals numbers he amassed while playing in a professional league at 18 point to.

Huh? Where did I say anything about defensive instincts? Nice strawman.

[nolang1]

Charm, my man, if you could show any clips that *don't involve dunks* but show how athletic you think he is, I'm here for it.

But like I said many pages ago, Blake Griffin won a dunk contest, and he can't defend anyone. David Lee (who I brought up several pages ago) was a great athlete and dunker (I think he won the McDonald's dunk contest once upon a time) but he was slow-footed laterally and just a terrible defender because of it (even though he played center for the Knicks for years!).

You can be explosive vertically like Obi or Amare and still be a terrible defender. You can also be incredibly fast up and down the court like a James Wiseman and be a terrible defender. So far, just showing us examples of dunks (and literally it's the same dunk over and over again with like CIA-level zoom) does not convince anyone he's a great lateral athlete. You need to be a lateral athlete to defend at a high level in the NBA. You need to move your feet quickly side-to-side. I think you know this.

Where are those videos?

Wait so you just argued yourself into a circle where the extent to which Sengun is not a prototypical NBA center physically isn't as important as his defensive instincts, which his great blocks and steals numbers he amassed while playing in a professional league at 18 point to.

Huh? Where did I say anything about defensive instincts? Nice strawman.

Ok so you're selectively ignoring that the obvious point that instincts play a big role on the defensive end (a point also made by the person who brought up Marc Gasol as someone who has been and still is a very good defender despite not having much in the way of lateral quickness) and instead saying that the biggest issue with those players you cited is uniformly their lack of lateral quickness.

[EvanZ]

Wait so you just argued yourself into a circle where the extent to which Sengun is not a prototypical NBA center physically isn't as important as his defensive instincts, which his great blocks and steals numbers he amassed while playing in a professional league at 18 point to.

Huh? Where did I say anything about defensive instincts? Nice strawman.

Ok so you're selectively ignoring that the obvious point that instincts play a big role on the defensive end (a point also made by the person who brought up Marc Gasol as someone who has been and still is a very good defender despite not having much in the way of lateral quickness) and instead saying that the biggest issue with those players you cited is uniformly their lack of lateral quickness.

I'm saying Sengun's biggest issue is lateral quickness. His second biggest issue is probably length/reach. Do you agree or disagree?

[clyde21]

its just harder to defend in the NBA than the euro leagues period, don't really think his stock numbers will really translate to the NBA because everything is faster with more spacing, so the lateral athleticism issue and length will be more problematic in the NBA than the turkish league...his defensive instincts are passable and his overall IQ on that end is a + but that'll only get u so far in the NBA when rotating and defending in space.

[Nuntius]

its just harder to defend in the NBA than the euro leagues period, don't really think his stock numbers will really translate to the NBA because everything is faster with more spacing, so the lateral athleticism issue and length will be more problematic in the NBA than the turkish league...his defensive instincts are passable and his overall IQ on that end is a + but that'll only get u so far in the NBA when rotating and defending in space.

Case in point, Sabonis. Sabonis has good awareness but his lack of length and lateral athleticism create problems for him on defense. I do think that it will be better under Rick (Bjorkgren had Domas blitzing screens and then trying to recover 25 feet back to his man which is just a stupid way to use Domas defensively) but Domas will never be a defensive stopper. And I do think that this is alright, by the way. If you have another big (or big wing) that can take over the prototypical 5 defensive duties and protect the rim then I don't think that players like Sabonis (or Jokic, for that matter) hurt you all that much on defense. You just have to have a specific kind of defender next to them.

[clyde21]

its just harder to defend in the NBA than the euro leagues period, don't really think his stock numbers will really translate to the NBA because everything is faster with more spacing, so the lateral athleticism issue and length will be more problematic in the NBA than the turkish league...his defensive instincts are passable and his overall IQ on that end is a + but that'll only get u so far in the NBA when rotating and defending in space.

Case in point, Sabonis. Sabonis has good awareness but his lack of length and lateral athleticism create problems for him on defense. I do think that it will be better under Rick (Bjorkgren had Domas blitzing screens and then trying to recover 25 feet back to his man which is just a stupid way to use Domas defensively) but Domas will never be a defensive stopper. And I do think that this is alright, by the way. If you have another big (or big wing) that can take over the prototypical 5 defensive duties and protect the rim then I don't think that players like Sabonis (or Jokic, for that matter) hurt you all that much on defense. You just have to have a specific kind of defender next to them.

yea, it just makes him limited in terms of lineup versatility and types of players u can put him next to him but it's not a HUGE issue if he's on the right team.

[Nuntius]

its just harder to defend in the NBA than the euro leagues period, don't really think his stock numbers will really translate to the NBA because everything is faster with more spacing, so the lateral athleticism issue and length will be more problematic in the NBA than the turkish league...his defensive instincts are passable and his overall IQ on that end is a + but that'll only get u so far in the NBA when rotating and defending in space.

Case in point, Sabonis. Sabonis has good awareness but his lack of length and lateral athleticism create problems for him on defense. I do think that it will be better under Rick (Bjorkgren had Domas blitzing screens and then trying to recover 25 feet back to his man which is just a stupid way to use Domas defensively) but Domas will never be a defensive stopper. And I do think that this is alright, by the way. If you have another big (or big wing) that can take over the prototypical 5 defensive duties and protect the rim then I don't think that players like Sabonis (or Jokic, for that matter) hurt you all that much on defense. You just have to have a specific kind of defender next to them.

yea, it just makes him limited in terms of lineup versatility and types of players u can put him next to him but it's not a HUGE issue if he's on the right team.

Yep. It definitely makes building around him a pain. We are facing this issue with Domas right now and there are some people who are open to the possibility of trading Sabonis exactly due to this concern. Domas is tougher to build around. It's also why Sabonis probably has less value for other teams than he has for the Pacers. If your team doesn't have the right type of players then Sabonis isn't that appealing of a trade target.

But as you said, it's not impossible. If the guy is good enough on offense then it's worth it. So, that's the real question about Sengun. Will his offense be good enough to make up for that?

Personally, I'm not sure yet. I see the talent but I cannot tell for sure whether it will translate or not.

[Bensational]

Anyone else see Sengun as a midpoint between Julius Randle and Jokic, size and speed wise? Closer to Jokic in skill set, but he’s still very young with time to show his range out to the 3pt line. Won’t be running grab and go’s with the speed of Randle, but will get up a lot faster than Jokic.

Or maybe I’m way off and he’s closer to Jahlil Okafor?