Franz Wagner, Michigan

[Nuntius]

From Barrtorvik:

https://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?link=y&sIndex=40&minthreepa=50&minrimatt=90&minmidatt=60&year=2021&start=20201101&end=20210501

I'm getting 57 players who attempted at least 60 "close 2s" and 90 "far 2s" as well as 100 3s last season.

Wagner is 5th in 2 point percentage and though 36th in 3 point percentage a good FT shooter (tied for 15th/16th in the sample). He comes out at 11th in eFG and 10th in TS%. He's right in the group with Moody and Bouknight for me where I think I'm good with him in the 6-10 range at least. He's a lower usage guy, but if he's a non-star who's going to be a solid team defender who can shoot some he's what every team needs.

True but only if that team already has an offensive star.

Oh for sure, but think I'm more of the mind I'd rather not reach to try to find a star where there's more likely going to be a really good high end role player. For the most part teams can find volume scoring somewhere, I look at a guy like Mikal Bridges and can't think anything other than "what team doesn't need that guy".

Granted, if he were on say the Magic or Pistons he wouldn't look so amazing, but I'm not sure there's anyone even after 4 who fits that description to much possibility all that well (and likely a few of them won't ultimately either). Even OKC at 6 it's probably a slight reach but the more I think about it I wouldn't mind it much either, though maybe could trade back and still get him or trade up from later ideally.

I'll tell you who doesn't need Mikal Bridges. A team that already has a lot of talents similar to Mikal Bridges but has no one to play the Devin Booker role. My team, the Pacers, are an example. We have a number of good to very good players but we do not have a true #1 option on offense. We don't have that go-to wing/guard scorer. My dream for this draft is for us to somehow find that guy like the Jazz did in 2017 when they also picked at 13. The last two times we picked in the lottery we picked Paul George and Myles Turner so we clearly don't have issues hitting with picks at the early 10s. I just hope that we manage to hit this year as well

[bondom34]

True but only if that team already has an offensive star.

Oh for sure, but think I'm more of the mind I'd rather not reach to try to find a star where there's more likely going to be a really good high end role player. For the most part teams can find volume scoring somewhere, I look at a guy like Mikal Bridges and can't think anything other than "what team doesn't need that guy".

Granted, if he were on say the Magic or Pistons he wouldn't look so amazing, but I'm not sure there's anyone even after 4 who fits that description to much possibility all that well (and likely a few of them won't ultimately either). Even OKC at 6 it's probably a slight reach but the more I think about it I wouldn't mind it much either, though maybe could trade back and still get him or trade up from later ideally.

I'll tell you who doesn't need Mikal Bridges. A team that already has a lot of talents similar to Mikal Bridges but has no one to play the Devin Booker role. My team, the Pacers, are an example. We have a number of good to very good players but we do not have a true #1 option on offense. We don't have that go-to wing/guard scorer. My dream for this draft is for us to somehow find that guy like the Jazz did in 2017 when they also picked at 13. The last two times we picked in the lottery we picked Paul George and Myles Turner so we clearly don't have issues hitting with picks at the early 10s. I just hope that we manage to hit this year as well

Don't think he makes it to that point in the lotto, but honestly think he'd be pretty solid. Even on a team pretty starved for offense in OKC I'd be pretty good with him if they got him. Between Levert and Sabonis they have creation and scoring, he'd be a solid fit. Just in terms of other options, if you've got a guy who's might top out at high end role player, but is likely to get there vs a possible star who has a higher bust potential, I tend to lean the former in most cases. Granted, no guarantees but I don't know if there really are guys who are going to be stars at that point in the draft. Looking back a few years the Suns took him super early in a rebuild (well then CP3 changed it lol), but they only had 1 real option to score at the time. And also I'm more a BPA guy.

Don't want to derail the thread, but given it's low traffic anyway....who do you like for the Pacers?

[Nuntius]

Oh for sure, but think I'm more of the mind I'd rather not reach to try to find a star where there's more likely going to be a really good high end role player. For the most part teams can find volume scoring somewhere, I look at a guy like Mikal Bridges and can't think anything other than "what team doesn't need that guy".

Granted, if he were on say the Magic or Pistons he wouldn't look so amazing, but I'm not sure there's anyone even after 4 who fits that description to much possibility all that well (and likely a few of them won't ultimately either). Even OKC at 6 it's probably a slight reach but the more I think about it I wouldn't mind it much either, though maybe could trade back and still get him or trade up from later ideally.

I'll tell you who doesn't need Mikal Bridges. A team that already has a lot of talents similar to Mikal Bridges but has no one to play the Devin Booker role. My team, the Pacers, are an example. We have a number of good to very good players but we do not have a true #1 option on offense. We don't have that go-to wing/guard scorer. My dream for this draft is for us to somehow find that guy like the Jazz did in 2017 when they also picked at 13. The last two times we picked in the lottery we picked Paul George and Myles Turner so we clearly don't have issues hitting with picks at the early 10s. I just hope that we manage to hit this year as well

Don't think he makes it to that point in the lotto, but honestly think he'd be pretty solid. Between Levert and Sabonis they have creation and scoring, he'd be a solid fit. Just in terms of other options, if you've got a guy who's might top out at high end role player, but is likely to get there vs a possible star who has a higher bust potential, I tend to lean the former in most cases. Granted, no guarantees but I don't know if there really are guys who are going to be stars at that point in the draft. Looking back a few years the Suns took him super early in a rebuild (well then CP3 changed it lol), but they only had 1 real option to score at the time. And also I'm more a BPA guy.

Normally, I would agree with you. I just think that our current team is one of those teams where I would swing for the fences because we really do need that scoring punch. These playoffs made the importance of shot creation crystal clear to me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but given it's low traffic anyway....who do you like for the Pacers?

Keon Johnson, Jalen Johnson, Moses Moody, James Bouknight are my top 4. I hope that one of them is there at #13. The player that I absolutely do not want is Corey Kispert. I am sure that he will have a productive career in the NBA as a bench shooter (kinda like Doug McDermott) but I want us to shoot higher than productive bench shooter with this rare lotto pick. I'm not super high on Giddey either (scoring and defend question marks) and I wouldn't pick Sengun or Kai Jones either even though I like them as prospects (we just have too many bigs already) but I wouldn't be opposed to anyone other than Kispert.

[bondom34]

I'll tell you who doesn't need Mikal Bridges. A team that already has a lot of talents similar to Mikal Bridges but has no one to play the Devin Booker role. My team, the Pacers, are an example. We have a number of good to very good players but we do not have a true #1 option on offense. We don't have that go-to wing/guard scorer. My dream for this draft is for us to somehow find that guy like the Jazz did in 2017 when they also picked at 13. The last two times we picked in the lottery we picked Paul George and Myles Turner so we clearly don't have issues hitting with picks at the early 10s. I just hope that we manage to hit this year as well

Don't think he makes it to that point in the lotto, but honestly think he'd be pretty solid. Between Levert and Sabonis they have creation and scoring, he'd be a solid fit. Just in terms of other options, if you've got a guy who's might top out at high end role player, but is likely to get there vs a possible star who has a higher bust potential, I tend to lean the former in most cases. Granted, no guarantees but I don't know if there really are guys who are going to be stars at that point in the draft. Looking back a few years the Suns took him super early in a rebuild (well then CP3 changed it lol), but they only had 1 real option to score at the time. And also I'm more a BPA guy.

Normally, I would agree with you. I just think that our current team is one of those teams where I would swing for the fences because we really do need that scoring punch. These playoffs made the importance of shot creation crystal clear to me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but given it's low traffic anyway....who do you like for the Pacers?

Keon Johnson, Jalen Johnson, Moses Moody, James Bouknight are my top 4. I hope that one of them is there at #13. The player that I absolutely do not want is Corey Kispert. I am sure that he will have a productive career in the NBA as a bench shooter (kinda like Doug McDermott) but I want us to shoot higher than productive bench shooter with this rare lotto pick. I'm not super high on Giddey either (scoring and defend question marks) and I wouldn't pick Sengun or Kai Jones either even though I like them as prospects (we just have too many bigs already) but I wouldn't be opposed to anyone other than Kispert.

I'm a fan of Moody and Bouknight as well, 2 other guys I'd like for OKC. Haven't researched Jalen Johnson enough yet, a bit lower on Keon (shooting concerns always get me as an OKC fan ). And yeah makes sense in terms of bigs too. You feel on Kispert how I do on Sengun.

Even for OKC, I'd be a little uncomfortable w Wagner at 6 but if they could trade back up would be all for it, and if Presti took him there would trust in it. I'm at a point of being pretty OK with anyone but Sengun.

I definitely get where you're coming from on Wagner and the idea of taking a swing too, the more I think about it I could go either way (and lean toward Barnes right now but change seemingly by the minute). Still in the range right after the top 5-6 with Moody and Bouknight though, really like them too.

[Nuntius]

Don't think he makes it to that point in the lotto, but honestly think he'd be pretty solid. Between Levert and Sabonis they have creation and scoring, he'd be a solid fit. Just in terms of other options, if you've got a guy who's might top out at high end role player, but is likely to get there vs a possible star who has a higher bust potential, I tend to lean the former in most cases. Granted, no guarantees but I don't know if there really are guys who are going to be stars at that point in the draft. Looking back a few years the Suns took him super early in a rebuild (well then CP3 changed it lol), but they only had 1 real option to score at the time. And also I'm more a BPA guy.

Normally, I would agree with you. I just think that our current team is one of those teams where I would swing for the fences because we really do need that scoring punch. These playoffs made the importance of shot creation crystal clear to me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but given it's low traffic anyway....who do you like for the Pacers?

Keon Johnson, Jalen Johnson, Moses Moody, James Bouknight are my top 4. I hope that one of them is there at #13. The player that I absolutely do not want is Corey Kispert. I am sure that he will have a productive career in the NBA as a bench shooter (kinda like Doug McDermott) but I want us to shoot higher than productive bench shooter with this rare lotto pick. I'm not super high on Giddey either (scoring and defend question marks) and I wouldn't pick Sengun or Kai Jones either even though I like them as prospects (we just have too many bigs already) but I wouldn't be opposed to anyone other than Kispert.

I'm a fan of Moody and Bouknight as well, 2 other guys I'd like for OKC. Haven't researched Jalen Johnson enough yet, a bit lower on Keon (shooting concerns always get me as an OKC fan ). And yeah makes sense in terms of bigs too. You feel on Kispert how I do on Sengun.

Really? You're low on Sengun? How so?

[bondom34]

Normally, I would agree with you. I just think that our current team is one of those teams where I would swing for the fences because we really do need that scoring punch. These playoffs made the importance of shot creation crystal clear to me.



Keon Johnson, Jalen Johnson, Moses Moody, James Bouknight are my top 4. I hope that one of them is there at #13. The player that I absolutely do not want is Corey Kispert. I am sure that he will have a productive career in the NBA as a bench shooter (kinda like Doug McDermott) but I want us to shoot higher than productive bench shooter with this rare lotto pick. I'm not super high on Giddey either (scoring and defend question marks) and I wouldn't pick Sengun or Kai Jones either even though I like them as prospects (we just have too many bigs already) but I wouldn't be opposed to anyone other than Kispert.

I'm a fan of Moody and Bouknight as well, 2 other guys I'd like for OKC. Haven't researched Jalen Johnson enough yet, a bit lower on Keon (shooting concerns always get me as an OKC fan ). And yeah makes sense in terms of bigs too. You feel on Kispert how I do on Sengun.

Really? You're low on Sengun? How so?

Ended up editing to add at the end, but on Sengun the lateral mobility concerns me, and I'm generally against drafting bigs that high. I'm not sure he's able to play on the perimeter with guys at a high level in playoff series, and for the most part feel like if a big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert you can sign one on a deal a bit easier than trying to draft.

Basically would far rather have the 8th best wing than 8th best big, plus the mobility concerns are pretty high up for me.

[Nuntius]

I'm a fan of Moody and Bouknight as well, 2 other guys I'd like for OKC. Haven't researched Jalen Johnson enough yet, a bit lower on Keon (shooting concerns always get me as an OKC fan ). And yeah makes sense in terms of bigs too. You feel on Kispert how I do on Sengun.

Really? You're low on Sengun? How so?

Ended up editing to add at the end, but on Sengun the lateral mobility concerns me, and I'm generally against drafting bigs that high. I'm not sure he's able to play on the perimeter with guys at a high level in playoff series, and for the most part feel like if a big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert you can sign one on a deal a bit easier than trying to draft.

Basically would far rather have the 8th best wing than 8th best big, plus the mobility concerns are pretty high up for me.

Ah, understood. As someone whose team primarily relies on a big (Sabonis) I definitely do not want to agree with the "if your big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert" part. I hope that the game swings back towards bigs soon

[bondom34]

Really? You're low on Sengun? How so?

Ended up editing to add at the end, but on Sengun the lateral mobility concerns me, and I'm generally against drafting bigs that high. I'm not sure he's able to play on the perimeter with guys at a high level in playoff series, and for the most part feel like if a big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert you can sign one on a deal a bit easier than trying to draft.

Basically would far rather have the 8th best wing than 8th best big, plus the mobility concerns are pretty high up for me.

Ah, understood. As someone whose team primarily relies on a big (Sabonis) I definitely do not want to agree with the "if your big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert" part. I hope that the game swings back towards bigs soon

Or they find a perimeter star to pair with the bigs they already have . Plus its not like Sabonis or Turner are pushovers (I'm a bit higher on Turner actually I think). They still have value but part of me feels you can find a guy fairly cheap who gives you "enough" production to reasonably replicate it. Thinking a team like the Wizards trading for Gafford, who makes next to nothing basically made their season instead of paying a ton. Or like I'd rather find Daniel Theis for $5M than Steven Adams for $17 even if Adams may be slightly better.

[Nuntius]

Ended up editing to add at the end, but on Sengun the lateral mobility concerns me, and I'm generally against drafting bigs that high. I'm not sure he's able to play on the perimeter with guys at a high level in playoff series, and for the most part feel like if a big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert you can sign one on a deal a bit easier than trying to draft.

Basically would far rather have the 8th best wing than 8th best big, plus the mobility concerns are pretty high up for me.

Ah, understood. As someone whose team primarily relies on a big (Sabonis) I definitely do not want to agree with the "if your big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert" part. I hope that the game swings back towards bigs soon

Or they find a perimeter star to pair with the bigs they already have .

Right and that's exactly the goal here

Plus its not like Sabonis or Turner are pushovers (I'm a bit higher on Turner actually I think). They still have value but part of me feels you can find a guy fairly cheap who gives you "enough" production to reasonably replicate it. Thinking a team like the Wizards trading for Gafford, who makes next to nothing basically made their season instead of paying a ton. Or like I'd rather find Daniel Theis for $5M than Steven Adams for $17 even if Adams may be slightly better.

It depends, really. When you are assembling the team, you definitely want cheaper contracts because they allow you to get more good players (and higher tier players). You cannot always moneyball it, though, in my opinion. When you're actually deep in the playoffs, you want the best possible players out there, no matter their contract. I'd gladly be in the luxury tax to win it all.

[bondom34]

Ah, understood. As someone whose team primarily relies on a big (Sabonis) I definitely do not want to agree with the "if your big isn't Embiid/Jokic/Gobert" part. I hope that the game swings back towards bigs soon

Or they find a perimeter star to pair with the bigs they already have .

Right and that's exactly the goal here

Plus its not like Sabonis or Turner are pushovers (I'm a bit higher on Turner actually I think). They still have value but part of me feels you can find a guy fairly cheap who gives you "enough" production to reasonably replicate it. Thinking a team like the Wizards trading for Gafford, who makes next to nothing basically made their season instead of paying a ton. Or like I'd rather find Daniel Theis for $5M than Steven Adams for $17 even if Adams may be slightly better.

It depends, really. When you are assembling the team, you definitely want cheaper contracts because they allow you to get more good players (and higher tier players). You cannot always moneyball it, though, in my opinion. When you're actually deep in the playoffs, you want the best possible players out there, no matter their contract. I'd gladly be in the luxury tax to win it all.

Oh yeah in the end its rare to win and not be a tax team. Just don't know I see any of these guys in that range being stars, and see a lot clearer of a path to Wagner being a really quality player than I do for the others. Thinking they probably all top out at maybe that range, but his shot at getting there is better.

[Nuntius]

Or they find a perimeter star to pair with the bigs they already have .

Right and that's exactly the goal here

Plus its not like Sabonis or Turner are pushovers (I'm a bit higher on Turner actually I think). They still have value but part of me feels you can find a guy fairly cheap who gives you "enough" production to reasonably replicate it. Thinking a team like the Wizards trading for Gafford, who makes next to nothing basically made their season instead of paying a ton. Or like I'd rather find Daniel Theis for $5M than Steven Adams for $17 even if Adams may be slightly better.

It depends, really. When you are assembling the team, you definitely want cheaper contracts because they allow you to get more good players (and higher tier players). You cannot always moneyball it, though, in my opinion. When you're actually deep in the playoffs, you want the best possible players out there, no matter their contract. I'd gladly be in the luxury tax to win it all.

Oh yeah in the end its rare to win and not be a tax team. Just don't know I see any of these guys in that range being stars, and see a lot clearer of a path to Wagner being a really quality player than I do for the others. Thinking they probably all top out at maybe that range, but his shot at getting there is better.

Understood. I do believe that some of the other guys in that range have star potential but maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.

[3toheadmelo]

I wouldn’t touch him in the lottery

[RookieStar]

Since this guys has been MIA with the draft 3weeks away and since he is not part of the 5man draft to just dodge everything... he probably has a lotto promise already.

[getrichordie]

Can he defend SF’s in the NBA?

This is the million dollar question.

[Yallbecrazy]

Can he defend SF’s in the NBA?

This is the million dollar question.

Isn't the whole hype on him that he is one of the best wing defenders in the draft who can pass and shoot really well too, just can't create? That's worthy of a top 10 pick

[Wizop]

Since this guys has been MIA with the draft 3weeks away and since he is not part of the 5man draft to just dodge everything... he probably has a lotto promise already.

Hasn't he been playing on the German National team?

Sent from my phone.

[Wizop]

Can he defend SF’s in the NBA?

This is the million dollar question.

Can he defend PFs outside?

Sent from my phone.

[UcanUwill]

Since this guys has been MIA with the draft 3weeks away and since he is not part of the 5man draft to just dodge everything... he probably has a lotto promise already.

Hasn't he been playing on the German National team?

Sent from my phone.

Which team, he wasnt on men's team at least, was he on junior team that I dont know? I dont think hes been with Germans.

[Wizop]

Since this guys has been MIA with the draft 3weeks away and since he is not part of the 5man draft to just dodge everything... he probably has a lotto promise already.

Hasn't he been playing on the German National team?

Sent from my phone.

Which team, he wasnt on men's team at least, was he on junior team that I dont know? I dont think hes been with Germans.

I thought both brothers were on the team but I could be mistaken.

Sent from my phone.

[UcanUwill]

Hasn't he been playing on the German National team?

Sent from my phone.

Which team, he wasnt on men's team at least, was he on junior team that I dont know? I dont think hes been with Germans.

I thought both brothers were on the team but I could be mistaken.

Sent from my phone.

Franz wasnt on that team in qualifiers, would have been interesting to see him there, looking at that German roster, he could have made it.