Trade Talk (Part Seven)

[Slim Tubby]

I will continue to say this, Towns, Edwards and Russell are off-limits in Simmons trade discussions (call them untouchable in these scenarios, if you wish).

For salary-matching purposes, Rubio and Beasley are both likely to be sent out in any deal.

After that, I view McDaniels, Bolmaro, Reid, Nowell and picks as the next level of assets Philadelphia (or a third team) will be interested in. We will probably need to include at least one to three of them in the deal, but which assets the other team chooses will determine how many we should ideally include in the trade. For example, I wouldn't send out as many picks with Reid as I would with Nowell.

Pieces like Okogie, Layman, Culver or Hernangomez can be added where needed if a team wants. Also could possibly see a S/T for McLaughlin or Vanderbilt involved.

A couple of things, Klompster:

1.) Do you regard Russell as "off limits" because of his relationship with KAT or because of what he brings to our roster that Simmons wouldn't?

2.) If we added 1-2 future FRP's in any trade for Ben, would you want to see any protections, and if so, what amount?

3.) How would you rank the following assets: Beasley, McDaniels, Bolmaro & Reid

I sill lean on the side that we don't have enough to offer PHI compared to some other teams. I say this because the media and NBA fans in general completely ignore the Wolves. McDaniels is an extremely talented 2-way prospect but his trade value is suffocated because nobody outside of MIN fans watch this team. Just look at the All-Rookie voting results as an example of the ignorance regarding McDaniels and Edwards.

[Baseline81]

I sill lean on the side that we don't have enough to offer PHI compared to some other teams. I say this because the media and NBA fans in general completely ignore the Wolves. McDaniels is an extremely talented 2-way prospect but his trade value is suffocated because nobody outside of MIN fans watch this team. Just look at the All-Rookie voting results as an example of the ignorance regarding McDaniels and Edwards.

Fans/media may not know of McDaniels' talent, but other teams do. Leading up to the trade deadline, Rosas received calls on the availability of McDaniels.

[Klomp]

A couple of things, Klompster:

1.) Do you regard Russell as "off limits" because of his relationship with KAT or because of what he brings to our roster that Simmons wouldn't?

2.) If we added 1-2 future FRP's in any trade for Ben, would you want to see any protections, and if so, what amount?

3.) How would you rank the following assets: Beasley, McDaniels, Bolmaro & Reid

I sill lean on the side that we don't have enough to offer PHI compared to some other teams. I say this because the media and NBA fans in general completely ignore the Wolves. McDaniels is an extremely talented 2-way prospect but his trade value is suffocated because nobody outside of MIN fans watch this team. Just look at the All-Rookie voting results as an example of the ignorance regarding McDaniels and Edwards.

1. I think he's off limits because everything Rosas has said and done since acquiring him says that he is.
2. Of course there would be protections. I think ideally would be lottery or Top 10, but would maybe consider Top 5 if it got the deal done.
3. I struggle on how to peg Beasley in the group, but would rank them McDaniels, Reid and Bolmaro (easily could change after the Olympics)

Media and fans always ignore the Wolves, but that hasn't stopped Rosas in the past from getting deals done.

Many times, deals are more likely to get done between people with previous relationships. Like it or not, it's how the world works. How many deals did McHale concoct with Danny Ainge? I see something similar with Rosas and Morey here. It's why Sacramento (McNair) is one of the other teams I'm most worried about.

Many times, fans and media don't do a good job of creating balanced proposals. They're more worried about big names. CJ McCollum is a big name, but not the right fit for a team that would need a PG to replace Simmons. Same with San Antonio and DeRozan. That's not happening without Dejounte Murray. Why would Philadelphia want Wiseman as a backup big to Embiid? Would Simmons and Westbrook be able to coexist? These are all things that common fans don't take into account.

Minnesota has the prior relationships at both the GM level and player level. Minnesota has the matching salaries. Minnesota has the young prospects. Minnesota has the future picks. Minnesota has the matching positional and skill needs. Minnesota has the willingness to make a trade. Minnesota has the desperation to make a jump. These are all things that cannot be fabricated.

[Nick K]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

So Beasley, Rubio, Naz Reid, Culver+2 1st rders for Simmons

I would pull the trigger. Maybe we can get Simmons+Danny Green(Sign and trade) for the above mentioned guys?

Reid has alot of potential. But i think we need a shot blocking center more. Maybe Nerlens Noel with the MLE?

They are not giving up Naz Reid. Who comes up with these ideas? How much more can we give up for a 14-7 -6 player who is being run out of town?

Lets go after Kawhi Leonard instead.

How about Rubio, Beasley, Juancho, Layman, and 1 1st for Simmons and an expiring. Juancho and Layman are studs! :") Philly could win it all with those guys.

Seriously, Philly is a better team with Rubio and Beasley. They fit Doc perfectly.

Reid's an average center, isn't particularly strong and not even that good of a defender, I'd take that deal minus a first round pick in a heartbeat.

Also you are absolutely insane if you think Kawhi Leonard who probably could have run it back with the Raptors and won another ring, and instead chose California would ever consider coming to arguably the coldest city in the NBA.

We have a better shot at Lillard because at least he's under contract.

Seriously we placed near the bottom and even if we were healthy I have a hard time seeing us even overtaking the 9th seed when fully healthy with this roster. We don't play defense for **** and our roster construction is made of the softest guys on Earth (minus Ant, McD).

Last year's rookies are really the only building blocks for the team. Everyone else is tradeable.

I got you note30. I was being sarcastic on Kawhi but with what we're offering for an over-rated Simmons we might as well go after Kawhi. Kawhi is twice the player. He's a complete player unlike Simmons. Remember Philly is trying to run him out of town.

Why do we always undervalue our guys and overvalue their guys?

Reid is a much better player than you think. I don't miss a game and I see his progress as amazing. He's athletic too. Per 36 minutes he's a 21-9-2 guy with 2 blocks. He shoots 52% from the floor and 35% from 3. Those are damn good numbers for anybody and he's getting better. They got him undrafted which was a steal and pay him peanuts. Those are the guys you keep.

No one was a bigger Simmons fan than me coming out of the draft. He's really disappointed me by not improving one iota. That speaks volumes about him.

I still like him here but not at the ridiculous price being thrown around. I don't think they move Rubio. They like him. Kat and Ant like him.

I can see them move Beasley, Layman, Juancho and future 1sts. I don't know. Maybe they move Ricky. At some point you have to walk away from a deal and look elsewhere.

We played the last 30 games just over 500 which more than likely gets you in the playoffs. Hey, I could be wrong and maybe Simmons is a monster here. Forget the playoffs we'd better be talkin finals.

I can't wait to see how it all turns out.

[Klomp]

Reid is a much better player than you think. I don't miss a game and I see his progress as amazing. He's athletic too. Per 36 minutes he's a 21-9-2 guy with 2 blocks. He shoots 52% from the floor and 35% from 3. Those are damn good numbers for anybody and he's getting better. They got him undrafted which was a steal and pay him peanuts. Those are the guys you keep.

We won't be able to pay him peanuts for long. In a year or two he will be making 8 figures, no question. How much are you willing to pay for a backup to your star center?

[Nick K]

Read on Twitter

Written by someone who doesn’t think money matters.

We traded to get the rights to Malik and Juancho, but we wouldn’t have them now if we didn’t spend $21 mil this year, and $22 next year. We wouldn’t have been able to trade James Johnson for Rubio if we weren’t willing to pay Rubio an additional $18 mil next year. Heck, if I recall, those moves that year added more salary too - salary that put us just into the lux.

Gersson should get credit for drafting McDaniels, and probably Bolmaro too. However, if you throw tens of millions of dollars into a deal, you should get better talent.

For that reason, Rosas never can be criticized for turning Cam Johnson and Dario Saric into Jarrett Culver.

That's pretty good K;omp. You have a point.

[Slim Tubby]

1. I think he's off limits because everything Rosas has said and done since acquiring him says that he is.
2. Of course there would be protections. I think ideally would be lottery or Top 10, but would maybe consider Top 5 if it got the deal done.
3. I struggle on how to peg Beasley in the group, but would rank them McDaniels, Reid and Bolmaro (easily could change after the Olympics)

Media and fans always ignore the Wolves, but that hasn't stopped Rosas in the past from getting deals done.

Many times, deals are more likely to get done between people with previous relationships. Like it or not, it's how the world works. How many deals did McHale concoct with Danny Ainge? I see something similar with Rosas and Morey here. It's why Sacramento (McNair) is one of the other teams I'm most worried about.

Many times, fans and media don't do a good job of creating balanced proposals. They're more worried about big names. CJ McCollum is a big name, but not the right fit for a team that would need a PG to replace Simmons. Same with San Antonio and DeRozan. That's not happening without Dejounte Murray. Why would Philadelphia want Wiseman as a backup big to Embiid? Would Simmons and Westbrook be able to coexist? These are all things that common fans don't take into account.

Minnesota has the prior relationships at both the GM level and player level. Minnesota has the matching salaries. Minnesota has the young prospects. Minnesota has the future picks. Minnesota has the matching positional and skill needs. Minnesota has the willingness to make a trade. Minnesota has the desperation to make a jump. These are all things that cannot be fabricated.[/quote]

Very good points. If SAC is really willing to offer Fox in a trade for Simmons, I doubt PHI will receive a better offer than that. I think the Kings would be foolish to make that offer, though.

[Nick K]

Reid is a much better player than you think. I don't miss a game and I see his progress as amazing. He's athletic too. Per 36 minutes he's a 21-9-2 guy with 2 blocks. He shoots 52% from the floor and 35% from 3. Those are damn good numbers for anybody and he's getting better. They got him undrafted which was a steal and pay him peanuts. Those are the guys you keep.

We won't be able to pay him peanuts for long. In a year or two he will be making 8 figures, no question. How much are you willing to pay for a backup to your star center?

I'll worry about that when the time comes.

The people we have to move are Okogie, Juancho. Layman and maybe Culver. If you don't move those guys and get rid of several good players you kill your depth. Simmons is a 14-7-8 guy. It's not like he's a 25-12-5 guy.

Look at Ricky, he's a 12-4-8 guy career. Beasley is a 19-4-3 guy who shoots 40% from 3. Ricky is a very good defender but not at Simmons level but how much do you really gain there. Right there we are giving up 31-8-11 for 14-7-8. Not counting multiple 1st picks. I don't see how defense alone makes up for that. He'd be playing out of position too. How good would he be there? Do we really know?

Plus we'd owe Simmons 140 million for 4 years. How much of a negative is that?

It's an argument that should be considered.

I'm not against getting Simmons at all but I'm concerned about the cost. It's like drunken sailors in a whorehouse bidding on the only girl.

[Klomp]

Look at Ricky, he's a 12-4-8 guy career. Beasley is a 19-4-3 guy who shoots 40% from 3. Ricky is a very good defender but not at Simmons level but how much do you really gain there. Right there we are giving up 31-8-11 for 14-7-8. Not counting multiple 1st picks. I don't see how defense alone makes up for that. He'd be playing out of position too. How good would he be there? Do we really know?

In 2007, we traded away 22/13/4 and got 46/24/7 in return. How much did we really lose? Do we really know?

[Klomp]

Reid is a much better player than you think. I don't miss a game and I see his progress as amazing. He's athletic too. Per 36 minutes he's a 21-9-2 guy with 2 blocks. He shoots 52% from the floor and 35% from 3. Those are damn good numbers for anybody and he's getting better. They got him undrafted which was a steal and pay him peanuts. Those are the guys you keep.

We won't be able to pay him peanuts for long. In a year or two he will be making 8 figures, no question. How much are you willing to pay for a backup to your star center?

I'll worry about that when the time comes.

And by doing so, you lose more trade value the closer he gets to free agency.

[Nick K]

Look at Ricky, he's a 12-4-8 guy career. Beasley is a 19-4-3 guy who shoots 40% from 3. Ricky is a very good defender but not at Simmons level but how much do you really gain there. Right there we are giving up 31-8-11 for 14-7-8. Not counting multiple 1st picks. I don't see how defense alone makes up for that. He'd be playing out of position too. How good would he be there? Do we really know?

In 2007, we traded away 22/13/4 and got 46/24/7 in return. How much did we really lose? Do we really know?

That was 4 players too and then we got rid of Al Jefferson who was a 20-10 guy after a couple of years. Mistake.

I would never have traded Wally or KG.

[Nick K]

We won't be able to pay him peanuts for long. In a year or two he will be making 8 figures, no question. How much are you willing to pay for a backup to your star center?

I'll worry about that when the time comes.

And by doing so, you lose more trade value the closer he gets to free agency.

You find a way to keep the good ones. Would Simmons bloated contract have anything to do with that?

[Slim Tubby]

Reid is a much better player than you think. I don't miss a game and I see his progress as amazing. He's athletic too. Per 36 minutes he's a 21-9-2 guy with 2 blocks. He shoots 52% from the floor and 35% from 3. Those are damn good numbers for anybody and he's getting better. They got him undrafted which was a steal and pay him peanuts. Those are the guys you keep.

We won't be able to pay him peanuts for long. In a year or two he will be making 8 figures, no question. How much are you willing to pay for a backup to your star center?

I'll worry about that when the time comes.

The people we have to move are Okogie, Juancho. Layman and maybe Culver. If you don't move those guys and get rid of several good players you kill your depth. Simmons is a 14-7-8 guy. It's not like he's a 25-12-5 guy.

Look at Ricky, he's a 12-4-8 guy career. Beasley is a 19-4-3 guy who shoots 40% from 3. Ricky is a very good defender but not at Simmons level but how much do you really gain there. Right there we are giving up 31-8-11 for 14-7-8. Not counting multiple 1st picks. I don't see how defense alone makes up for that. He'd be playing out of position too. How good would he be there? Do we really know?

Plus we'd owe Simmons 140 million for 4 years. How much of a negative is that?

It's an argument that should be considered.

I'm not against getting Simmons at all but I'm concerned about the cost. It's like drunken sailors in a whorehouse bidding on the only girl.

I tend to agree with this type of "math" regarding Simmons, Nick. For the right price, he would really elevate our team's national profile, but If he was really worth the Max deal he's on, why the hell is PHI looking hard to dump him??? Can you really afford to pay a guy a Max deal when you can't even have him on the floor in crunch time? The answer is "NO"...but he'd still be a sexy addition to the organization.

PHI has another bad Max deal with Harris and who the heck is going to take on that crappy deal as well? If PHI keeps those three (3) guys together, they aren't winning a damn thing and it's a safe bet that Embiid will be looking to make an exit asap. I think it's inevitable that Big Ben is moved before next season begins.

[Klomp]

I tend to agree with this type of "math" regarding Simmons, Nick. For the right price, he would really elevate our team's national profile, but If he was really worth the Max deal he's on, why the hell is PHI looking hard to dump him??? Can you really afford to pay a guy a Max deal when you can't even have him on the floor in crunch time? The answer is "NO"...but he'd still be a sexy addition to the organization.

PHI has another bad Max deal with Harris and who the heck is going to take on that crappy deal as well? If PHI keeps those three (3) guys together, they aren't winning a damn thing and it's a safe bet that Embiid will be looking to make an exit asap. I think it's inevitable that Big Ben is moved before next season begins.

PHI is a team with title aspirations that fell short. Embiid is the guy they are building around, and Harris is a brutal contract with no value. Simmons is their only chance to redeem some value to make their desired jump.

While he maybe shouldn't be a top-three option on a team with title aspirations at the moment, Minnesota isn't at that stage of franchise development at the moment either. But he can help us get closer than we've been.

[Nick K]

We won't be able to pay him peanuts for long. In a year or two he will be making 8 figures, no question. How much are you willing to pay for a backup to your star center?

I'll worry about that when the time comes.

The people we have to move are Okogie, Juancho. Layman and maybe Culver. If you don't move those guys and get rid of several good players you kill your depth. Simmons is a 14-7-8 guy. It's not like he's a 25-12-5 guy.

Look at Ricky, he's a 12-4-8 guy career. Beasley is a 19-4-3 guy who shoots 40% from 3. Ricky is a very good defender but not at Simmons level but how much do you really gain there. Right there we are giving up 31-8-11 for 14-7-8. Not counting multiple 1st picks. I don't see how defense alone makes up for that. He'd be playing out of position too. How good would he be there? Do we really know?

Plus we'd owe Simmons 140 million for 4 years. How much of a negative is that?

It's an argument that should be considered.

I'm not against getting Simmons at all but I'm concerned about the cost. It's like drunken sailors in a whorehouse bidding on the only girl.

I tend to agree with this type of "math" regarding Simmons, Nick. For the right price, he would really elevate our team's national profile, but If he was really worth the Max deal he's on, why the hell is PHI looking hard to dump him??? Can you really afford to pay a guy a Max deal when you can't even have him on the floor in crunch time? The answer is "NO"...but he'd still be a sexy addition to the organization.

PHI has another bad Max deal with Harris and who the heck is going to take on that crappy deal as well? If PHI keeps those three (3) guys together, they aren't winning a damn thing and it's a safe bet that Embiid will be looking to make an exit asap. I think it's inevitable that Big Ben is moved before next season begins.

Thanks slim tubby. I was feeling pretty lonely out there in my view. You make another great point with Harris, who I like but not at that price. Philly has been the drunken sailors here and it has come back to bite them.

I'm really starting to appreciate Rosas and his deal making. I don't think he'll give up the farm for Simmons. I know he's a sexy pickup and I'd like to have him but only at the right price. Sometimes you just have to walk.

Someone posted here Rosas comments that I thought were rather cryptic. It suggested to me they really like Ricky meaning he stays and they know to a degree how they will proceed with trades. Step 1, if not step 2, if not step 3. They've talked with everybody, everybody knows where they are at. No bidding contests either. 3 team trades make sense.

The Ricky thing is tough because both Toronto and Philly need a PG. Ricky at his best is still a very good player.

I think they will acquire a draft pick too. I hope it turns out Usman Garuba or Sims.

[Baseline81]

The Ricky thing is tough because both Toronto and Philly need a PG. Ricky at his best is still a very good player.

Why is Toronto in need a PG?

Is VanVleet not a PG? And with the Raptors drafting 4th overall, they may draft Suggs.

[Nick K]

I tend to agree with this type of "math" regarding Simmons, Nick. For the right price, he would really elevate our team's national profile, but If he was really worth the Max deal he's on, why the hell is PHI looking hard to dump him??? Can you really afford to pay a guy a Max deal when you can't even have him on the floor in crunch time? The answer is "NO"...but he'd still be a sexy addition to the organization.

PHI has another bad Max deal with Harris and who the heck is going to take on that crappy deal as well? If PHI keeps those three (3) guys together, they aren't winning a damn thing and it's a safe bet that Embiid will be looking to make an exit asap. I think it's inevitable that Big Ben is moved before next season begins.

PHI is a team with title aspirations that fell short. Embiid is the guy they are building around, and Harris is a brutal contract with no value. Simmons is their only chance to redeem some value to make their desired jump.

While he maybe shouldn't be a top-three option on a team with title aspirations at the moment, Minnesota isn't at that stage of franchise development at the moment either. But he can help us get closer than we've been.

[Nick K]

The Ricky thing is tough because both Toronto and Philly need a PG. Ricky at his best is still a very good player.

Why is Toronto in need a PG?

Is VanVleet not a PG? And with the Raptors drafting 4th overall, they may draft Suggs.

I was thinking Lowry going out but you are right with Suggs.

[Nick K]

I tend to agree with this type of "math" regarding Simmons, Nick. For the right price, he would really elevate our team's national profile, but If he was really worth the Max deal he's on, why the hell is PHI looking hard to dump him??? Can you really afford to pay a guy a Max deal when you can't even have him on the floor in crunch time? The answer is "NO"...but he'd still be a sexy addition to the organization.

PHI has another bad Max deal with Harris and who the heck is going to take on that crappy deal as well? If PHI keeps those three (3) guys together, they aren't winning a damn thing and it's a safe bet that Embiid will be looking to make an exit asap. I think it's inevitable that Big Ben is moved before next season begins.

PHI is a team with title aspirations that fell short. Embiid is the guy they are building around, and Harris is a brutal contract with no value. Simmons is their only chance to redeem some value to make their desired jump.

While he maybe shouldn't be a top-three option on a team with title aspirations at the moment, Minnesota isn't at that stage of franchise development at the moment either. But he can help us get closer than we've been.

We may be further along than you think. Dlo, Ant, and Kat aint bad for starters and they are just getting started. We have good depth too.

We played Philly April 3rd without Ricky and Dlo and lost 122-113. They had a full team at home. Our bench was outscored 31-19. Finch was just starting to put his mark on the team.

We were a much, much better team by the end of the season. We could make a huge jump next year just as we are with a few solid off-season fits and current player improvement.

[shrink]

I have a lot to say on these topics, but not a lot of time, so I will limit my discussion to one area.

I don’t ask how good or bad a player is, to determine if he should be traded. I ask if he might have more value elsewhere, so if he was traded, we could get something back in trade so both teams win.

Naz Reid is a good example. He’s played very well here, his growth from being undrafted is tremendous and he is very coachable, and his salary is as good as you can get. He definitely has positive value here. However, he may have more value on another team.

Right now, he is probably the 20th best center in the NBA, and he could get better. As the 20th best center, he could start for several teams in the NBA (for example, BOS or CHA), and he would get starter minutes. He has more value to them than he has to us. And that value may decrease next year, once he gets adequately paid as an RFA (MIN is unlikely to take one more season at the min and let him become a UFA. If Naz is paid, other teams may look at the many vet centers in the NBA that can handle the deemphasized center position for a vet min deal.

I would also add that while he has some extra value to Rosas because he makes him look good as a talent evaluator, if Naz is traded for, say, a late 1st, Rosas has the chance to add more talent and make another good pick. I have Rosas as 5-of-6 getting more value back than the pick (Naz, McDaniels, Nowell, Bolmaro, probably Ant, vs Culver). The team needs more overall talent, so trading Naz for value gives Rosas an asset and available minutes to use his skill to improve the team. We only take advantage of Rosas’ best skill if the team is willing to churn.