Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread

[ParticleMan]

The point is, either way is a gamble.

1. You try to trade for a Big 3.
2. You draft and develop guys for a Big 3, maybe trading/signing for the last one.

We did #1, and it worked for us once. But only once. Then injuries set in, because our Big 3 was over the big 3-0 and that's what happens. The W's did #2, and it worked for longer, and with a bit of cap-jump luck they were able to sign a 3rd. The only thing recent history has proved is that if you have prime Lebron, you can put another star or two around him and win a title. There's no other way that's sure-fire, which is especially true since prime Lebron appears to be a thing of the past.

Now we're doing #2. We have 2 of the 3. We'll probably have to trade for a third, or maybe we can manage to sign him. I don't think anyone doubts Tatum as a top banana (or should at this point), but the question is, is JB a good enough second banana? I think the answer is unequivocally yes, modulo tendinitis issues. But if we have 2 of the 3, and both under control for the next 3-4 years, and a solid supporting case, I think we're in the conversation. Not quite there yet, but on the right path.

I think we could still switch up and go to the first path, if a good enough trade comes along for JB. But it would have to be *really* good, a clear upgrade, and that's a very short list of nba players.

One thing that's highly underrated is PATIENCE. It's no surprise that all the supposed superteams last year flamed out, and the two teams in the finals are ones who have had their core together for a few years. This counts for a lot. Us hoop junkies love those big flashy mega-trades... but that stable core is crucial. That is a lesson from history.

I like our path. I think the Jays are an amazing foundation that most teams would kill for. Patience, in many ways, can be the third of the Big 3.

[Curmudgeon]

The Suns also chose option #2. They were a joke until they wo 8 in a row in the bubble-- and that was before they acquired CP3. The young players (Booker, Bridges, Ayton) figured it out.

[Slax]

The point is, either way is a gamble.

1. You try to trade for a Big 3.
2. You draft and develop guys for a Big 3, maybe trading/signing for the last one.

We did #1, and it worked for us once. But only once. Then injuries set in, because our Big 3 was over the big 3-0 and that's what happens. The W's did #2, and it worked for longer, and with a bit of cap-jump luck they were able to sign a 3rd. The only thing recent history has proved is that if you have prime Lebron, you can put another star or two around him and win a title. There's no other way that's sure-fire, which is especially true since prime Lebron appears to be a thing of the past.

Now we're doing #2. We have 2 of the 3. We'll probably have to trade for a third, or maybe we can manage to sign him. I don't think anyone doubts Tatum as a top banana (or should at this point), but the question is, is JB a good enough second banana? I think the answer is unequivocally yes, modulo tendinitis issues. But if we have 2 of the 3, and both under control for the next 3-4 years, and a solid supporting case, I think we're in the conversation. Not quite there yet, but on the right path.

I think we could still switch up and go to the first path, if a good enough trade comes along for JB. But it would have to be *really* good, a clear upgrade, and that's a very short list of nba players.

One thing that's highly underrated is PATIENCE. It's no surprise that all the supposed superteams last year flamed out, and the two teams in the finals are ones who have had their core together for a few years. This counts for a lot. Us hoop junkies love those big flashy mega-trades... but that stable core is crucial. That is a lesson from history.

I like our path. I think the Jays are an amazing foundation that most teams would kill for. Patience, in many ways, can be the third of the Big 3.

Ok that's great and all but I want to emphasize again, nobody here is even talking about trading Jaylen for Beal. We are talking about a hypothetical where Beal forces his way to Boston in a trade or S&T and we get him for essentially matching salary and some combination of young guys and/or draft picks. There are multiple people saying we shouldn't do that because Beal would take away shots from Jaylen and that would make Jaylen sad. Is that your stance too?

[ICeeYou]

The point is, either way is a gamble.

1. You try to trade for a Big 3.
2. You draft and develop guys for a Big 3, maybe trading/signing for the last one.

We did #1, and it worked for us once. But only once. Then injuries set in, because our Big 3 was over the big 3-0 and that's what happens. The W's did #2, and it worked for longer, and with a bit of cap-jump luck they were able to sign a 3rd. The only thing recent history has proved is that if you have prime Lebron, you can put another star or two around him and win a title. There's no other way that's sure-fire, which is especially true since prime Lebron appears to be a thing of the past.

Now we're doing #2. We have 2 of the 3. We'll probably have to trade for a third, or maybe we can manage to sign him. I don't think anyone doubts Tatum as a top banana (or should at this point), but the question is, is JB a good enough second banana? I think the answer is unequivocally yes, modulo tendinitis issues. But if we have 2 of the 3, and both under control for the next 3-4 years, and a solid supporting case, I think we're in the conversation. Not quite there yet, but on the right path.

I think we could still switch up and go to the first path, if a good enough trade comes along for JB. But it would have to be *really* good, a clear upgrade, and that's a very short list of nba players.

One thing that's highly underrated is PATIENCE. It's no surprise that all the supposed superteams last year flamed out, and the two teams in the finals are ones who have had their core together for a few years. This counts for a lot. Us hoop junkies love those big flashy mega-trades... but that stable core is crucial. That is a lesson from history.

I like our path. I think the Jays are an amazing foundation that most teams would kill for. Patience, in many ways, can be the third of the Big 3.

Ok that's great and all but I want to emphasize again, nobody here is even talking about trading Jaylen for Beal. We are talking about a hypothetical where Beal forces his way to Boston in a trade or S&T and we get him for essentially matching salary and some combination of young guys and/or draft picks. There are multiple people saying we shouldn't do that because Beal would take away shots from Jaylen and that would make Jaylen sad. Is that your stance too?

I missed the multiple people saying that.

But I do think it’s fair (I don’t agree with the thinking) to question whether or not Beal is the right 3rd guy to pair with Brown/Tatum.

The great part about Brown is he’s really efficient with his touches and has developed primarily as an off-ball catch and shoot, catch and drive threat.

The only other question is just how far you have to go as far as losing productive players from the roster to get Beal and how steep is the climb to acquire the role players you will need after acquiring Beal.

Folks love to downplay that part (get your stars first and then role players will come) but it’s a lot harder to find those guys when you’re cash and asset strapped.

That’s why I keep advocating for Brad to continue to add salary above the lux tax now. You have to go big this off-season and really load the team up so that when you trade for Beal you have enough pieces left to assemble a fully ready to go 8-9 deep.

So use the MLE, use your trade exception, sign Fournier or S&T him. And then at the deadline you can use those salaries along with Thompson/Smart and the kids/picks to get Beal.

[jmr07019]

There is definitely a contingent of posters who want to trade Jaylen for Beal. Of course they’d prefer to keep Brown if possible but they don’t see that as realistic. I myself think trading for Beal without including Brown is a tough fest to pull off which is why I have advocated going the cap space route. We would need to include Rob Nesmith and multiple firsts to get it done. Maybe have to send out smart to a third team for an extra asset going to Washington.

I would also add that having a big as one of your three stars seems to make things substantially easier. You seem to get diminishing returns when you add a third guy who needs the ball a lot. Jaylen does alleviate this problem to some extent as he is great on catch and shoot, driving close outs, transition and defending the other teams top offensive option(s). I also don’t think you pass up the chance to add Beal to Brown and Tatum because none of them are bigs. However in my ideal team building scenario one of my stars is a big.

[zoyathedestroya]

TatumEmbiidBeal 2023

[Triple7]

The point is, either way is a gamble.

1. You try to trade for a Big 3.
2. You draft and develop guys for a Big 3, maybe trading/signing for the last one.

We did #1, and it worked for us once. But only once. Then injuries set in, because our Big 3 was over the big 3-0 and that's what happens. The W's did #2, and it worked for longer, and with a bit of cap-jump luck they were able to sign a 3rd. The only thing recent history has proved is that if you have prime Lebron, you can put another star or two around him and win a title. There's no other way that's sure-fire, which is especially true since prime Lebron appears to be a thing of the past.

Now we're doing #2. We have 2 of the 3. We'll probably have to trade for a third, or maybe we can manage to sign him. I don't think anyone doubts Tatum as a top banana (or should at this point), but the question is, is JB a good enough second banana? I think the answer is unequivocally yes, modulo tendinitis issues. But if we have 2 of the 3, and both under control for the next 3-4 years, and a solid supporting case, I think we're in the conversation. Not quite there yet, but on the right path.

I think we could still switch up and go to the first path, if a good enough trade comes along for JB. But it would have to be *really* good, a clear upgrade, and that's a very short list of nba players.

One thing that's highly underrated is PATIENCE. It's no surprise that all the supposed superteams last year flamed out, and the two teams in the finals are ones who have had their core together for a few years. This counts for a lot. Us hoop junkies love those big flashy mega-trades... but that stable core is crucial. That is a lesson from history.

I like our path. I think the Jays are an amazing foundation that most teams would kill for. Patience, in many ways, can be the third of the Big 3.

Ok that's great and all but I want to emphasize again, nobody here is even talking about trading Jaylen for Beal. We are talking about a hypothetical where Beal forces his way to Boston in a trade or S&T and we get him for essentially matching salary and some combination of young guys and/or draft picks. There are multiple people saying we shouldn't do that because Beal would take away shots from Jaylen and that would make Jaylen sad. Is that your stance too?

I missed the multiple people saying that.

But I do think it’s fair (I don’t agree with the thinking) to question whether or not Beal is the right 3rd guy to pair with Brown/Tatum.

The great part about Brown is he’s really efficient with his touches and has developed primarily as an off-ball catch and shoot, catch and drive threat.

The only other question is just how far you have to go as far as losing productive players from the roster to get Beal and how steep is the climb to acquire the role players you will need after acquiring Beal.

Folks love to downplay that part (get your stars first and then role players will come) but it’s a lot harder to find those guys when you’re cash and asset strapped.

That’s why I keep advocating for Brad to continue to add salary above the lux tax now. You have to go big this off-season and really load the team up so that when you trade for Beal you have enough pieces left to assemble a fully ready to go 8-9 deep.

So use the MLE, use your trade exception, sign Fournier or S&T him. And then at the deadline you can use those salaries along with Thompson/Smart and the kids/picks to get Beal.

Jaylen has greatly improved his ability to get to the basket, and draw fouls. His mid range game has been elite last season. I was checking on Kawhi’s number, and he averaged 21pts on his 5th season. Jaylen is way above that. I think he could pattern his game to kawhi. if he could be an automatic at mid range jumpers, while still having that ability to get to the basket, also occasionally hitting those 3pt shot. Improve his playmaking, then he can be unstoppable, just like Jayson.

[sam_I_am]

The Suns also chose option #2. They were a joke until they wo 8 in a row in the bubble-- and that was before they acquired CP3. The young players (Booker, Bridges, Ayton) figured it out.

If this Suns team wins a title, it will be least talented team in my lifetime to do so. When Celtics played them this year - a year where the team has been the worst since IT years - it more than held its own against Suns.

There is no reason to blow up this squad. Sure, a change in coaching and GM may breath some energy and life into team. Sure, the roster as constructed needs balance and improvement. But at its core, this team has a foundation for a title contender.

Maybe there is not enough to defeat the Nets at full strength in the first round....but had the team been a top 3 seed and Brown had stayed healthy, they might be in finals instead of Bucks.

Luck has played a hand in the team’s fortunes whether it be IT injury, Hayward’s fracture, Kyrie knee surgery, Hayward’s sprain, Kemba knee....or the lack of similar injuries to Lebron’s Cavs or the Miami Heat last year.

Without dominant talent like 2008 squad, there are no guarantees and even with that kind of talent like GS in 2019 or the Nets this year it can still unravel.

Our management has made it clear. They intend to build around Tatum, Brown and Smart and I 100% agree with this plan.

[Parliament10]

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The Ace of (green) clubs and a Deuce of hearts.

[Parliament10]

Read on Twitter

The Ace of (green) clubs and a Deuce of hearts.

That's a nice slogan.

[GoCeltics123]

I'm trying to win a chip, and if you can actually get a Beal-esque player, that puts you closer. Should be a no-brainer if Jaylen isn't involved, I really don't love the idea too much if Jaylen is but you do gotta consider it if it increases the chance of JT staying

[BostonCouchGM]

Tatum wasn't really consistently a true #1 last season. He definitely has the potential to be a low end #1 though which should be sufficient. Brown isn't a #2 because his defense is no longer above average. If he could duplicate his first half offense where he was well above 1:1 assist/TO, score at or close to last season but also bring up his defense, then he could be a #2 but I wouldn't count on it. He's injury prone, has poor BBIQ and a worse handle. He's just about what you should expect. On the same level as other #3s around the league like Middleton, Hayward, Grant, Murray, Ingram and LaVine. Of course you'd trade Brown for Beal and plenty of us want this. But you aren't getting him without Brown because years of bad drafting have left us with lackluster assets. We're going to have to wait until he comes here on his own unless we include Brown.

What I don't think people have considered is that, yes Beal and Tatum clearly want to play together, but it doesn't necessarily mean Beal is coming here. I think there's an even greater chance the two of them arrange a way to join forces on a team not named the Wizards or Celtics. When, not if, we get bounced early next playoffs, Tatum is going to look around and know he's on the Giannis path to nowhere. Even if they can manage to sign Beal, the rest of the team and depth will be putrid and incapable of competing for championships. I think a lot of teams know this and will be preparing to have a compelling package to send us and the cap space to sign Beal.

[Slax]

Tatum wasn't really consistently a true #1 last season. He definitely has the potential to be a low end #1 though which should be sufficient. Brown isn't a #2 because his defense is no longer above average. If he could duplicate his first half offense where he was well above 1:1 assist/TO, score at or close to last season but also bring up his defense, then he could be a #2 but I wouldn't count on it. He's injury prone, has poor BBIQ and a worse handle. He's just about what you should expect. On the same level as other #3s around the league like Middleton, Hayward, Grant, Murray, Ingram and LaVine. Of course you'd trade Brown for Beal and plenty of us want this. But you aren't getting him without Brown because years of bad drafting have left us with lackluster assets. We're going to have to wait until he comes here on his own unless we include Brown.

Agreed - it's highly unlikely we can get Beal without Brown unless we wait until the 2022 offseason. I expect the only particularly likely way he comes here for less during the 2021-22 season is if he demands a trade specifically here and threatens not to re-sign with any other potential trade partner, which would be out of character for Beal.

What I don't think people have considered is that, yes Beal and Tatum clearly want to play together, but it doesn't necessarily mean Beal is coming here. I think there's an even greater chance the two of them arrange a way to join forces on a team not named the Wizards or Celtics. When, not if, we get bounced early next playoffs, Tatum is going to look around and know he's on the Giannis path to nowhere. Even if they can manage to sign Beal, the rest of the team and depth will be putrid and incapable of competing for championships. I think a lot of teams know this and will be preparing to have a compelling package to send us and the cap space to sign Beal.

I fully expect Tatum to either be gone when his contract is up, or sign short term deals with player options if we are an active championship contender and there aren't other good options, so I'm probably on the more pessimistic side of this forum about keeping Tatum here for the long term. I also don't see Beal to the Celtics as anything resembling a done deal so much as a realistic possibility - there are other potential destinations for him, and he may just stay on the Wizards. And it's THEORETICALLY possible Tatum could TRY to pull a Harden, demand out, and tank his trade value to force his way onto a team that also has the cap space to sign Beal to create a team up next off-season. But it's absolutely wild to suggest that this is even a remotely likely possibility, much less a forgone conclusion. It's very easy for Beal to arrange a S&T to the Celtics and end up on a good team, while it's basically impossible for any team to give up enough assets for Tatum while he still has three years left on his deal, use its cap space or S&T for Beal, and still have a better and deeper team than whatever the Celtics would have after a Beal S&T that doesn't include Brown. What team could possibly do that?

[Curmudgeon]

If I had the choice of adding Beal, on one hand, or Robert Covington and Tyrese Haliburton on the other, I'd choose the latter option.

[Parliament10]

If I had the choice of adding Beal, on one hand, or Robert Covington and Tyrese Haliburton on the other, I'd choose the latter option.

OK. What does this have to do with the Celtics?

[Half-Full]

If I had the choice of adding Beal, on one hand, or Robert Covington and Tyrese Haliburton on the other, I'd choose the latter option.

OK. What does this have to do with the Celtics?

Plenty of people speculating about adding a third star to Tatum, and Jaylen. Beal, Lillard, McCollum have all been mentioned. Saying one prefers other players in this context (in this thread), how is that not to do with the Celtics?

[Parliament10]

If I had the choice of adding Beal, on one hand, or Robert Covington and Tyrese Haliburton on the other, I'd choose the latter option.

OK. What does this have to do with the Celtics?

Plenty of people speculating about adding a third star to Tatum, and Jaylen. Beal, Lillard, McCollum have all been mentioned. Saying one prefers other players in this context (in this thread), how is that not to do with the Celtics?

IJA. Where did Robert Covington and Tyrese Haliburton come from?
I mean, yeah. We could Add Lebron and Anthony Davis, too.

But, did I miss the premise for this?

[Andrew McCeltic]

He means we’d be better off adding two great roleplayers instead of one dominant scorer

[ryaningf]

But I do think it’s fair (I don’t agree with the thinking) to question whether or not Beal is the right 3rd guy to pair with Brown/Tatum.

The great part about Brown is he’s really efficient with his touches and has developed primarily as an off-ball catch and shoot, catch and drive threat.

The only other question is just how far you have to go as far as losing productive players from the roster to get Beal and how steep is the climb to acquire the role players you will need after acquiring Beal.

Folks love to downplay that part (get your stars first and then role players will come) but it’s a lot harder to find those guys when you’re cash and asset strapped.

That’s why I keep advocating for Brad to continue to add salary above the lux tax now. You have to go big this off-season and really load the team up so that when you trade for Beal you have enough pieces left to assemble a fully ready to go 8-9 deep.

So use the MLE, use your trade exception, sign Fournier or S&T him. And then at the deadline you can use those salaries along with Thompson/Smart and the kids/picks to get Beal.

Welcome to the board. I see you too.

The I think we tend to gloss over the positional diversity required of a big 3 to make it a BIG 3. Which is another way of saying we just don't need 3 All-Stars, we need 3 All-Stars who all compliment each other. Typically, that means at least one of them is a PF or a center and so the "problem" with Tatum/Brown/Beal isn't talent it's that there's only 1 ball and none of those guys is taller than 6'8" or known for their defense. (Perhaps the Nets will clear this hurdle with their Big 3 - but then again, one of those 3 is 7 foot).

While I'd prefer to keep Brown, I think the discussions of trading him should be limited to discussions of trading him for an All-Star (or potential All-Star) who plays PF or center. Otherwise, what's the point - we'd still be lacking a big. I'm not saying I'd necessarily want to trade Jaylen for Jaren Jackson Jr but those are the types of trades that make actual sense in the context of this particular team winning a championship.

Your point about adding salary to load up with role players and talent is well-taken too - we just can't plan for how to acquire a 3rd star, we need to prepare for what comes afterwards too. This means not only "adding salary" but scouring the market in Europe, D-League, and Summer League to find a 3-and-D PF/Center for minimal salary - there are lots of guys looking for opportunities and we have a very substantial hole at PF right now (I'd argue every legitimate big on the roster is better at 5 than at 4).