Joel Embiid

[mjkvol]

I dont think we should necessarily trade Embiid.
I dont think exploring to trade embiid is necessarily stupid.
I think we should explore all options.

That's our main disagreement. I think our hands are forced into trading him since its either trade him or supermax him (4 years 200 million for his age 30-33 seasons) this offseason. There is no middle ground.

One of those options will kill the future of the franchise imo. One can re-ignite hope.

Yeah because i believe neither of us can predict the future so it’s not rational to have a close ended decision, specially at this early of the offseason.

Like I said, we can still win with Embiid. You just need to have way more talent and re-structure the team’s hierarchy from Embiid being your 1A into Embiid being a 1B.

It would be prudent to explore BOTH trading Embiid and not trading Embiid. So you’re ready to this two possibilities when the opportunity comes

I believe that everything should be on the table, but disagree on actively exploring Embiid trades. The only way his name should ever come up is if we are approached, and then if anything less than a 'top 10' difference maker is included in the offer, it should be summarily dismissed. Trading Embiid for anything less than an elite player who can be built around is essentially rebuilding.

Trading your most marketable player and the face of the franchise involves much more than simply scheme and on-court fit. It is a business decision first and foremost, and getting it wrong could and probably would drastically set the franchise back, so it's best to tread very carefully here.

The focus in my opinion should be first on unloading Harris when his value will never be higher. He is the quintessential 'good player on a bad team', an empty stats guy who will never be a go-to player in big spots, and tying up supermax money on a player like that is a franchise wrecker. Harris for CJ, as we've discussed ad nauseum, is the easiest way to drastically improve the roster without making another move.

That's when the fun starts with Simmons, and Morey can sit back and watch a potential bidding war ensue. And if he can't get a return worthy of an "all star, all defensive team" player, then keep him and see what develops before next year's trade deadline. My guess is that Simmons will be gone by the draft, and that Morey will get the type package he wants.

[Sixerscan]

I dont think we should necessarily trade Embiid.
I dont think exploring to trade embiid is necessarily stupid.
I dont think trading an asset when its value is high is stupid.
I think we should explore all options.

Explore whatever you want, there's no realistic package that you can get for him that makes the team better.

The Pelicans basically got the most you could possibly get for someone when they traded Davis, and they still haven't come close to being the 48 win team they had with Davis the last time he was actually trying for them. Really if they had just stayed at 9 or whatever in that lottery and had Cam Reddish or something instead of jumping up and lucking into another generational talent for them to waste they would be one of the worst teams in the league.

[Mik317]

I’m not worried about Josh Harris money

This oh the contract will be bad in a few years **** is stupid… especially since the same people are clamoring for Dame. It’s apart of the game yall… and unless he can’t play at all… Embiid on one leg is better than a lot of players lol. He is smart and crafty enough to adjust him game and honestly probably should anyway since most of his injuries have come from him trying to be Superman.

You don’t trade top 10 talent unless they ask to. Hell you don’t trade top 20 talent. Hell we should only trade Ben of it makes us better. If it sucks in a few years who gives a ****? The team will tank and wait out the contract. And considering John Wall got traded I don’t even know if that is the case either.

You don’t trade Embiid and get better so there is no reason to do it. Trying to preemptively do something is stupid IMO…

[yuuby]

If embijd is smart. He will agree to the 4 year super max extension. With his injury history. It would be idiotic to turn down 200 million guarantee to age 33. He will do something similar to Bradley Beal with opt out after year 3 of the super max.

If Sixers put injury clause in the contract. Embiid won’t agree on it. Than things will get interesting this off season. I do think Embiid best fit is with golden state. Even with Klay not returning to his normal self. He just needs to camp out 25 feet to shoot. And he’s gonna to be open all day. Someone is gonna to be open all day with Embiid in the paint and curry (steph) with the ball.

We have reach the end of Embiid and Simmons. I love Embiid. He’s my favorite player. But I love the Sixers. We got to do what’s best for the team. 4 years of playoff failures. Yes they are still relatively young. 25/27. We can run it back one more year. While the defensive fit is amazing. The offensive fit in the playoffs is horrible.

Compromise, injury clause with partial guarantee for salary cap relief.

If you actually believe the guy who was 3 time 2nd team all nba in thenpast 4 seasons and was the MVP runner up is negotiating anything less than the full supermax with no clauses and a player option in year 4 I got a bridge to sell you.

The only two options with Embiid are the full supermax this offseason or trading him. There is no middle ground.

That is the whole reason I want him traded.

Do you really think the guys who gave Ben Simmons 5 years 177 million and Tobias Harris 5 years 180 million know how to negotiate good deals.

The 76ers cant in good faith try to offer him less than the supermax when a stiff like Gobert got 33% of the 35% supermax last offseason.

[Black Mage]

If embijd is smart. He will agree to the 4 year super max extension. With his injury history. It would be idiotic to turn down 200 million guarantee to age 33. He will do something similar to Bradley Beal with opt out after year 3 of the super max.

If Sixers put injury clause in the contract. Embiid won’t agree on it. Than things will get interesting this off season. I do think Embiid best fit is with golden state. Even with Klay not returning to his normal self. He just needs to camp out 25 feet to shoot. And he’s gonna to be open all day. Someone is gonna to be open all day with Embiid in the paint and curry (steph) with the ball.

We have reach the end of Embiid and Simmons. I love Embiid. He’s my favorite player. But I love the Sixers. We got to do what’s best for the team. 4 years of playoff failures. Yes they are still relatively young. 25/27. We can run it back one more year. While the defensive fit is amazing. The offensive fit in the playoffs is horrible.

Compromise, injury clause with partial guarantee for salary cap relief.

If you actually believe the guy who was 3 time 2nd team all nba in thenpast 4 seasons and was the MVP runner up is negotiating anything less than the full supermax with no clauses and a player option in year 4 I got a bridge to sell you.

The only two options with Embiid are the full supermax this offseason or trading him. There is no middle ground.

That is the whole reason I want him traded.

Do you really think the guys who gave Ben Simmons 5 years 177 million and Tobias Harris 5 years 180 million know how to negotiate good deals.

The 76ers cant in good faith try to offer him less than the supermax when a stiff like Gobert got 33% of the 35% supermax last offseason.

You realize the guy in charge and FO are totally different? The only guy left is Brand and he's not making that decision or negotiation.

Regardless, supermax Embiid 9/10 times with the one time being bc the team doctors said he has suffered permanent career altering injury by playing on the torn meniscus this year. But if you do, expect free agents and players to treat Sixers like they do Celtics after how they did IT dirty.

[Mik317]

You do understand that trading Embiid looks terrible to other agents and players? We already don’t get players… and now we don’t want to pay the guy who has one of the best seasons in franchise history… because he could fall off?

That’s real smart

[Black Mage]

You do understand that trading Embiid looks terrible to other agents and players? We already don’t get players… and now we don’t want to pay the guy who has one of the best seasons in franchise history… because he could fall off?

That’s real smart

Exactly. I think it's less about that and more a small group wanting to get back at the trade Ben push bc they are Ben stooges. I mean, some of them are literally suggesting the same trades discussed for Ben for Embiid now.

[Mik317]

and look yeah eventually if we keep **** up and failing, the day to trade the big oaf will come. Probably sooner than we'd like but we need to try to bring in perimeter shot creators before that happens. We tried the surround them with shooters approach...and it worked but even if we didn't eat **** against the Hawks, you could feel the end result of that this time. I want to see another version of the Jimmy year...hopefully with a Jimmy who shoots 3s and an Embiid not getting sent to prison by big Spaniards....but I'll take a carbon copy if it comes to that lol.

Trading Embiid might be the eventual outcome and yeah the return won't be as sweet (although again I'd argue that trading him now doesn't really get much either as teams will wonder if his knee is worse than we admitted...and you are probably looking at Wiggins and GS picks anyway. No you aren't getting Towns and honestly, I don't think he puts us over now either....so again why bother?) but until then I want to try with him. Supermax doesn't scare me; not like we have the money anyway and if we do...who the **** is going to come to play for a franchise who did that to their best player?....or hell at all...our last big FA was our current GM yall. There is no such thing as an unmovable contract anyway. Stop caping for Josh Harris' pockets.

[Sixerscan]

and look yeah eventually if we keep **** up and failing, the day to trade the big oaf will come. Probably sooner than we'd like but we need to try to bring in perimeter shot creators before that happens. We tried the surround them with shooters approach...and it worked but even if we didn't eat **** against the Hawks, you could feel the end result of that this time. I want to see another version of the Jimmy year...hopefully with a Jimmy who shoots 3s and an Embiid not getting sent to prison by big Spaniards....but I'll take a carbon copy if it comes to that lol.

Trading Embiid might be the eventual outcome and yeah the return won't be as sweet (although again I'd argue that trading him now doesn't really get much either as teams will wonder if his knee is worse than we admitted...and you are probably looking at Wiggins and GS picks anyway. No you aren't getting Towns and honestly, I don't think he puts us over now either....so again why bother?) but until then I want to try with him. Supermax doesn't scare me; not like we have the money anyway and if we do...who the **** is going to come to play for a franchise who did that to their best player?....or hell at all...our last big FA was our current GM yall. There is no such thing as an unmovable contract anyway. Stop caping for Josh Harris' pockets.

Also whatever lesser return you get by trading him down the road is balanced out by the period where he’s still healthy and you have an MVP caliber player on your team.

As long as Embiid is happy being here and in his prime you are on the radars of other elite players. You saw how Harden was willing to come here. I don’t think he’s as excited to play with Shae Gilgious Alexander and 8 first round picks or whatever.

[mjkvol]

You do understand that trading Embiid looks terrible to other agents and players? We already don’t get players… and now we don’t want to pay the guy who has one of the best seasons in franchise history… because he could fall off?

That’s real smart

Exactly. That is part of the off-court issue I mentioned earlier. You risk taking a huge PR hit with your fan base, alienating the rest of the roster, and making the franchise toxic for prospective FA's and agents. And the odds of any return being equal or better than what we had here are incredibly slim.

You know what? If anyone calls regarding Joel, you just laugh and hang up.

[76ciology]

I want to make a long explanation on why we should explore trading Embiid. But im kind of tired of repeating what Ive said and just point out the key points

- his stamina and health is declining. Its a shorten season and he showed stamina and health issues down the stretch. You have 3 years of data for this.
- morey even said it that its hard to build around a big with how the game is played nowadays. This would settle the idea that building around Embiid is difficult (but possible).
- the only way to win with embiid is to be able to find 1-2 guys who are as good as he is, build a superteam. And here lies the problem. That window is almost 0, with how Ben’s value has decline. This is why Morey went hard for Harden.
- If you can’t build a superteam, you need to build a team that can team with less talent by a team that the trend favor and is not going against the grain
- Bucks, which is Sixers’ best case, has shown difficulty in beating a less talented Suns squad with no superstars or MVP caliber guys
- the only way to defend PnR is for Embiid to step out, switch and close out which is difficult given his health abd stamina condition and his role on offense (this is why I want Embiid to slide to 1B on offense and find us a 1A)


Clips to make you understand basketball

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

My overall position:
I also think you guys also think it’s hard to win with Embiid.

I mean, none of you mentioned any scenarios or ways that it’s easier to win with Embiid’s style of play than the modern way of spamming pick and rolls and 3s. And I think we all agree with this because even Morey has said it himself.

The concern is more on value in return and PR.

With value, Im not so sure what value we can get in return.

The fact that you guys dont think Mavs will trade Doncic for Embiid makes me think you guys also think Embiid’s value isnt as high as we think.

Just by looking around, we have lose to teams that aren’t as talented as us in the last 3 playoff years (i excluded 2020), so more talent doesnt necessarily equate to wins. The right talent has more value than value of talent itself.

For example.. Andre Drummond is a very talented star player but a guy like Capela could lead you to more wins than Drummond. Gobert is a DPOY player, but PJ Tucker is a player who can help you win in the playoffs more than Gobert. An all NBA team player, all star and DPOY finalist in Ben Simmons is more talented than John Collins, but John Collins can help you get more wins in the playoffs than Ben Simmons.

With the PR thing, yeah its an issue that even I dont know how to deal with. The only thing i can think of is letting Morey be the fall guy for the agents and player union. Something this franchise has done before with its previous GM

[eyeatoma]

If you look at the Cavs and the Suns, they did it the right way. Establish the guard position first. Then value hunt for bigs in Jarett Allen and Capela. Mavs is also the same thing. They get Doncic first at 2018, then traded for KP in 2019.

While Jazz and Nuggets lucked into it that they were able to get Murray, MPJ and Mitchell without a high draft pick. BUT it wont be possible if you’re mindset dont shift from just blindly getting a BPA to acknowledging how powerful perimeter players are compared to bigs.

You dont need to tank 5 years to make that happen. And 8 years just to go from rebuild and to just make the second round.

And that is why the league is making guards OP. It’s for parity reason and for teams to have a faster turn around time from rebuild to contend.

In the future, you’ll see teams rebuild and contend for shorter time unlike before because you wouldnt need that much talent to win. This is also what’s Presti is doing.

Value hunt for bigs??? WTH you talking about, Ayton was the first ******* overall pick! That's not value hunting. Not only that, but the KEY piece that made the team non-lottery bound was finding a legitimate HOF PG to run the entire team. That happened LAST. (FYI, I lobbied and begged Sixers to move Horford for PointGod, if we had done that and told Ben to suck it about being a PG we'd be in the finals and 2 wins away).

The Cavs have WON NOTHING without Lebron on the freaking team and had Kyrie for years and were stuck in the early lottery.

The Hawks get a gentlemen's sweep at worst if Embiid is healthy or Ben decides to you know play basketball. We lost sever games by less than 10 points, if our freaking PG scores better than the 9th guy off the bench we win the series easily.

I'm gonna also address the peeps from the trade thread that said maybe move the MVP runner-up for a trade package that they'd take for freaking Ben Simmons except we get some picks back. Here's a news flash, whatever team gets Embiid is playoff bound and with him and Zion they go deep, so those precious picks you think make this a good trade would be late 1st rounders.

As for the peep who said trade Joel now so we can run fast and inflate Ben's value. Total rubbish. Here's a heavy dose of reality for your Ben stooges. If Ben still can't/won't shoot come the start of next season his value is ZERO and there won't be anything that will increase it. Ben has to be traded in the off-season b/c there are still owners foolish enough to believe they can unlock him and teams have time to get them into their "coaching system."

Dude, these peeps turning on Embiid have lost touch with logic and reality. I'm embarrassed that there's fans on here who are so stuck on Ben Simmons that they have decided to turn on the only legitimate best player in the league candidate we've had in 3-4 decades. Is giving Joel the supermax with risk? Absolutely, but this idea that we can just create a brand new competitive team without holding onto him or getting a #1 overall pick is absurd.

This a 1000%

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[76ciology]

^ Regular season is different bro. We have like 3-4 years of sample size than Ben knows how to pad his stats.

It’s not like he will go to full Markelle Fultz out there.

[76ciology]

Im not saying i want Embiid gone.

Again my position is, if you can get Dame or a backcourt of Fox&Cj like what stormi proposed, by all means let Embiid stay.

But if you can only get CJ with Ben and Embiid. You may have to explore trading Embiid because this will just likely be a death sentence of mediocre team given it’s talent and contract situation,

As you can see. I dont give an F on any player. Im not an Embiid fan or a Ben fan. I’ll say they stink if they stink. I just want to win a championship by any means necessary even if it means burning bridges and starting over.

Competition will get better. Nets will be 100%. Raps and Celts will be back.

ALL NBA TEAMS will continue improving their PnR offense and PnR defense. This includes teams with their franchise players are bigs like BUCKS, JAZZ and NUGGETS.

Teams will try to trade for Fox, Dame, CJ, Sexton, SGA with all their picks and assets just as what happened in 2020 offseason with Bucks and Suns going after Jrue and CP3.

Every single team knows a team’s value in the playoff depends on the star power of their PG and their power in PnR offense and PnR defense.

We’re not the only ones trying to get better.

How are we trying to win this pick and roll arms race?

You think you can get Tobi for CJ?

What makes you say Bucks, Jazz or Nuggets wont trade Middleton, MPJ or Gobert for Dame or CJ?

[Bum Adebayo]

You don't follow trends, you go against the grain, this way the victory is much sweeter. There is no saisfaction in winning a championship when you play the same style as other teams and previous champions.
So, trade Simmons.

[yuuby]

Embiid is 27 years old and still has no clue how to deal with a simple double team. Once Atlanta started to double him in game 4 the turnovers went through the roof.

The only problem with trading Embiid is that teams will be weary that we are getting rid of damaged goods because they will say if even the 76ers are scared of his health why shouldnt I be?

Everyone knows deep down that you cant win with a low iq center having a 35+ usage rate in the playoffs. He can get his regular season stats but he falls off a cliff in the playoffs.

[Mik317]

his stats in the playoffs....went up.
You all claim to want a chip so bad but your main idea is to step further away for something even less likely.

I don't get it.

Again down the line after trying to get shot creators and all that jazz? Sure. But now? Thats **** stupid.

He's not Gobert. He's not Bropez. He's better than both. He stayed with Trae on switches on a bum knee ffs. You swap him with those guys and those teams run to the finals and win it with ease.

The idea that he was the main reason we loss is baffling to me. Especially since the same guy wants us to trade for Towns...who hasn't won **** his whole career. But I am sure thats not his fault tho whereas our failures all fall on Embiid.

Like I am all for people having their own opinions but this one just does not pass the pure logical test lol. There is no world in which trading Joel Embiid makes sense right now. This is without the aforementioned outside factors. We went through hell to get a player oif his calibur and here we are and some people are trying to rush him out the door because they are afraid of what might happen...

If he breaks down, who gives a ****. Its not my money and the team will be bad for the remainder of the contract. In which hey, maybe the league won't get pissy that we are ass that time....and let us actually rebuild.

[eyeatoma]

^ Regular season is different bro. We have like 3-4 years of sample size than Ben knows how to pad his stats.

It’s not like he will go to full Markelle Fultz out there.

Nobody thought he was going to go 34% ft in the playoffs. He went full Markelle in the playoffs. His brother has already retweeted tweets slamming Jo and Doc. His head is out of Philly and the city will eat him alive. He's not going to perform how he has in past regular seasons next year.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[yuuby]

Embiid ball in games 6 & 7:

4 assists 16 turnovers (most live ball which led to easy Atlanta points).

You can't win with a terrible decision maker demanding 35+ usage in the playoffs.

He needs to learn to play team basketball and lower his usage rate to 25% as a big man and lose weight. There is no reason this dude should be playing at 285+ lbs after all of his injuries. Are his handlers that afraid to tell him the truth.

Those saying you can't trade Embiid just because you are afraid of his health seem to be missing the point. The health isn't the only reason we want him traded. His style of play being antithetical to the modern NBA is just as big of a factor.

No one should be running the majority of their offense based on midrange iso, postups which take 10 seconds off the shot clock to complete and the person running them is a terrible playmaker and decision maker.

No one should be playing drop coverage against great pick and roll creators but we are forced to since our 7 foot 285+ lb center is a liability on the perimeter and can't switch that action which puts pressure on the whole team.

People were blaming Danny Green for getting cooked by Trae yet most was based off of screens where Embiid was dropping and just let Trae do whatever he wanted. Just like he let Kemba and Tatum do whatever they wanted in 2020, and he let Rozier, Horford and Tatum do whatever they wanted in 2018.

[DCasey91]

Watch on YouTube

0:35, he’s as stubborn as the other one. They don’t learn because look who is actual the authoritarian. No one

Dudes my favorite player (I just don’t favor Supermaxes at all. MJ got a 100mill equivalent for one year, LBJ/Curry should get those sums and no one else, market royalty).

What are you trying to say in the bolded???

Big guy plays like a wild kid. He’s going to do his knee in (if not it’s just going to get worse from here on out).