Top 11 Ceilings

[Charm]

When the game was on the line, especially towards the end of the season, Cade went to his trusty jumpshot again and again. He clearly didn’t trust his handle in traffic even against college defenses…it’s going to take a lot of improvement on his part to become a primary ballhandler type in the NBA.

seemed fairly effective for him considering the guy had almost double the amount of points in the clutch than any other player in the NCAA

but I agree, he's not a perfect prospect, his ball handling in half court traffic needs improvement, not sure why people think his ball handling is a finished product considering the improvement he has shown in other areas like his jumpshot

Some of these arguments are disingenuous...he had more clutch points than anyone else because he played in more close games than anyone else. And he shot a high percentage at the rim because he rarely got to the rim except for wide open layups. He's not actually a great finisher, and he doesn't actually have a deep bag as an ISO scorer. His old-man Kevin Durant game worked well at the college level where he could simply shoot over most defenders, but I don't think it'll be as effective in the NBA.

[Big J]

Usually the guys who lack athleticism that become stars have elite BBIQ. Nothing about Cade says that he has that.

[The Moose]

When the game was on the line, especially towards the end of the season, Cade went to his trusty jumpshot again and again. He clearly didn’t trust his handle in traffic even against college defenses…it’s going to take a lot of improvement on his part to become a primary ballhandler type in the NBA.

seemed fairly effective for him considering the guy had almost double the amount of points in the clutch than any other player in the NCAA

but I agree, he's not a perfect prospect, his ball handling in half court traffic needs improvement, not sure why people think his ball handling is a finished product considering the improvement he has shown in other areas like his jumpshot

Some of these arguments are disingenuous...he had more clutch points than anyone else because he played in more close games than anyone else. And he shot a high percentage at the rim because he rarely got to the rim except for wide open layups. He's not actually a great finisher, and he doesn't actually have a deep bag as an ISO scorer. His old-man Kevin Durant game worked well at the college level where he could simply shoot over most defenders, but I don't think it'll be as effective in the NBA.

He had less than 1 less attempt at the rim per game than guys like Jayson Tatum, Anthony Edwards just to name a few guys I remember off the top of my head. I wouldn't say he's a great finisher, but he's nowhere near as bad as some people are making him out to be

[The Moose]

Usually the guys who lack athleticism that become stars have elite BBIQ. Nothing about Cade says that he has that.

thats your opinion and you're entitled to it, but much like your take on his leadership and attitude, its not one that many other people share.

[Charm]

seemed fairly effective for him considering the guy had almost double the amount of points in the clutch than any other player in the NCAA

but I agree, he's not a perfect prospect, his ball handling in half court traffic needs improvement, not sure why people think his ball handling is a finished product considering the improvement he has shown in other areas like his jumpshot

Some of these arguments are disingenuous...he had more clutch points than anyone else because he played in more close games than anyone else. And he shot a high percentage at the rim because he rarely got to the rim except for wide open layups. He's not actually a great finisher, and he doesn't actually have a deep bag as an ISO scorer. His old-man Kevin Durant game worked well at the college level where he could simply shoot over most defenders, but I don't think it'll be as effective in the NBA.

He had less than 1 less attempt at the rim per game than guys like Jayson Tatum, Anthony Edwards just to name a few guys I remember off the top of my head. I wouldn't say he's a great finisher, but he's nowhere near as bad as some people are making him out to be

Interesting; that's certainly news to me. At least in the games I watched, he was forced into a lot of awkward midrange shots when he ventured inside the arc. What's the source for this?

[DickGrayson]

Green has the highest ceiling. /thread

[Big J]

Usually the guys who lack athleticism that become stars have elite BBIQ. Nothing about Cade says that he has that.

thats your opinion and you're entitled to it, but much like your take on his leadership and attitude, its not one that many other people share.

If you would actually take off the homer goggles for a second you would realize how much better of a prospect that Green is. We have seen time and time again that Greens type almost always becomes huge stars and make electrifying plays that blow up Twitter/ESPN/blogs. Cade has a freaking boring ass game and nothing about him is exciting.

[The Moose]

Some of these arguments are disingenuous...he had more clutch points than anyone else because he played in more close games than anyone else. And he shot a high percentage at the rim because he rarely got to the rim except for wide open layups. He's not actually a great finisher, and he doesn't actually have a deep bag as an ISO scorer. His old-man Kevin Durant game worked well at the college level where he could simply shoot over most defenders, but I don't think it'll be as effective in the NBA.

He had less than 1 less attempt at the rim per game than guys like Jayson Tatum, Anthony Edwards just to name a few guys I remember off the top of my head. I wouldn't say he's a great finisher, but he's nowhere near as bad as some people are making him out to be

Interesting; that's certainly news to me. At least in the games I watched, he was forced into a lot of awkward midrange shots when he ventured inside the arc. What's the source for this?

barttorvik.com gives a good breakdown on a lot of advanced stats

the most alarming thing for Cade's finishing is his lack of dunks, he had half as many as Tatum for example. Some of it is the role he had in the offense, but hes also not quite the vertical athlete Tatum is.

At the rim:
Edwards: 89/129 69% 38% assisted 32 games, 4.03 attempts per game

Tatum: 79/126 62%, 22% unassisted 29 games, 4.3 attempts per game

Cade: 67/108 62% 28% assisted 27 games 4.00 attempts per game

I would say he's not as good a finisher as either, but hes not that far behind.

[Charm]

He had less than 1 less attempt at the rim per game than guys like Jayson Tatum, Anthony Edwards just to name a few guys I remember off the top of my head. I wouldn't say he's a great finisher, but he's nowhere near as bad as some people are making him out to be

Interesting; that's certainly news to me. At least in the games I watched, he was forced into a lot of awkward midrange shots when he ventured inside the arc. What's the source for this?

barttorvik.com gives a good breakdown on a lot of advanced stats

the most alarming thing for Cade's finishing is his lack of dunks, he had half as many as Tatum for example. Some of it is the role he had in the offense, but hes also not quite the vertical athlete Tatum is.

At the rim:
Edwards: 89/129 69% 38% assisted 32 games, 4.03 attempts per game

Tatum: 79/126 62%, 22% unassisted 29 games, 4.3 attempts per game

Cade: 67/108 62% 28% assisted 27 games 4.00 attempts per game

I would say he's not as good a finisher as either, but hes not that far behind.

Good call. I'd say the other concerning area for him is offensive rebounds, as a lot of wings who go on to be great NBA scorers are at least decent in that area. But overall his finishing is definitely a bit better than I anticipated.

You don't happen to know where to find NCAA on/off (plus/minus) stats, do you?

[The Moose]

Interesting; that's certainly news to me. At least in the games I watched, he was forced into a lot of awkward midrange shots when he ventured inside the arc. What's the source for this?

barttorvik.com gives a good breakdown on a lot of advanced stats

the most alarming thing for Cade's finishing is his lack of dunks, he had half as many as Tatum for example. Some of it is the role he had in the offense, but hes also not quite the vertical athlete Tatum is.

At the rim:
Edwards: 89/129 69% 38% assisted 32 games, 4.03 attempts per game

Tatum: 79/126 62%, 22% unassisted 29 games, 4.3 attempts per game

Cade: 67/108 62% 28% assisted 27 games 4.00 attempts per game

I would say he's not as good a finisher as either, but hes not that far behind.

Good call. I'd say the other concerning area for him is offensive rebounds, as a lot of wings who go on to be great NBA scorers are at least decent in that area. But overall his finishing is definitely a bit better than I anticipated.

You don't happen to know where to find NCAA on/off (plus/minus) stats, do you?

no sorry, only the BPM (box score plus minus), Evan Mobley lead the entire NCAA if I remember correctly. He's almost up there with AD and KAT in that regard.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&class_is_fr=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_c=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=bpm&c1comp=gt&c1val=10&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=800&c3comp=gt&c4comp=gt&order_by=bpm

these are some of the best freshman BPM recently

[Charm]

barttorvik.com gives a good breakdown on a lot of advanced stats

the most alarming thing for Cade's finishing is his lack of dunks, he had half as many as Tatum for example. Some of it is the role he had in the offense, but hes also not quite the vertical athlete Tatum is.

At the rim:
Edwards: 89/129 69% 38% assisted 32 games, 4.03 attempts per game

Tatum: 79/126 62%, 22% unassisted 29 games, 4.3 attempts per game

Cade: 67/108 62% 28% assisted 27 games 4.00 attempts per game

I would say he's not as good a finisher as either, but hes not that far behind.

Good call. I'd say the other concerning area for him is offensive rebounds, as a lot of wings who go on to be great NBA scorers are at least decent in that area. But overall his finishing is definitely a bit better than I anticipated.

You don't happen to know where to find NCAA on/off (plus/minus) stats, do you?

no sorry, only the BPM (box score plus minus), Evan Mobley lead the entire NCAA if I remember correctly. He's almost up there with AD and KAT in that regard.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&class_is_fr=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_c=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=bpm&c1comp=gt&c1val=10&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=800&c3comp=gt&c4comp=gt&order_by=bpm

these are some of the best freshman BPM recently

Yup. Definitely not a perfect number for predicting NBA success, though on the topic of top-100 ceilings I'll point out that Wagner's young enough to be a freshman and would easily be the highest-rated wing on that list. I'm still not sure what, precisely, is limiting his ceiling in peoples' minds.

[The Moose]

Good call. I'd say the other concerning area for him is offensive rebounds, as a lot of wings who go on to be great NBA scorers are at least decent in that area. But overall his finishing is definitely a bit better than I anticipated.

You don't happen to know where to find NCAA on/off (plus/minus) stats, do you?

no sorry, only the BPM (box score plus minus), Evan Mobley lead the entire NCAA if I remember correctly. He's almost up there with AD and KAT in that regard.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&class_is_fr=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_c=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=bpm&c1comp=gt&c1val=10&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=800&c3comp=gt&c4comp=gt&order_by=bpm

these are some of the best freshman BPM recently

Yup. Definitely not a perfect number for predicting NBA success, though on the topic of top-100 ceilings I'll point out that Wagner's young enough to be a freshman and would easily be the highest-rated wing on that list. I'm still not sure what, precisely, is limiting his ceiling in peoples' minds.

I think if he goes after pick 7/8 he is a huge steal

[Charm]

no sorry, only the BPM (box score plus minus), Evan Mobley lead the entire NCAA if I remember correctly. He's almost up there with AD and KAT in that regard.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&class_is_fr=Y&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_c=Y&games_type=A&c1stat=bpm&c1comp=gt&c1val=10&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=800&c3comp=gt&c4comp=gt&order_by=bpm

these are some of the best freshman BPM recently

Yup. Definitely not a perfect number for predicting NBA success, though on the topic of top-100 ceilings I'll point out that Wagner's young enough to be a freshman and would easily be the highest-rated wing on that list. I'm still not sure what, precisely, is limiting his ceiling in peoples' minds.

I think if he goes after pick 7/8 he is a huge steal

Agreed; I have him all the way up at #5 on my board.

[Big J]

I’m with both of you guys. Actually Wagner projects very similarly to Cade with slightly better defense.

[Marcus]

for those of you down on Cade. Do you view him as a player with low IQ or bad work ethic?

[Charm]

for those of you down on Cade. Do you view him as a player with low IQ or bad work ethic?

Certainly not low-IQ. Just lower than I anticipated going into the season. I think he's similar (in terms of IQ, not in general) to Deni last year, for instance. Pretty good for a young wing, but the narrative that he's an elite, outlier-type playmaker just isn't supported statistically or qualitatively in my opinion.

I don't think he has bad work ethic as far as I know...there's actually a huge data point in his favor there, which is his jumpshot. But I think there are limits to what a guy can accomplish with work ethic alone. As a Cavs fan, I can say that Sexton for instance is a huge work ethic guy...but he still has basically the same strengths and weaknesses he had 5 years ago.

[Big J]

I think Cades work ethic is fine, but his IQ and charisma are lackluster. He’s got sort of a dud personality a la Wiggins.

[Marcus]

I think Cades work ethic is fine, but his IQ and charisma are lackluster. He’s got sort of a dud personality a la Wiggins.

i keep seeing you bringing this up. What's the negative indicator there for you?

[Big J]

I think Cades work ethic is fine, but his IQ and charisma are lackluster. He’s got sort of a dud personality a la Wiggins.

i keep seeing you bringing this up. What's the negative indicator there for you?

His Instagram account and interviews he’s given. I’ve done a deep dive on his personality traits.

[Marcus]

I think Cades work ethic is fine, but his IQ and charisma are lackluster. He’s got sort of a dud personality a la Wiggins.

i keep seeing you bringing this up. What's the negative indicator there for you?

His Instagram account and interviews he’s given. I’ve done a deep dive on his personality traits.

no, im asking what effect does this have on his ability to play basketball at the NBA level? i understand you don't like his personality, im trying to understand how that lowers him as a prospect in your eyes.