Re: Sexton Convo, Update PG: 15 - Knicks most aggressive suitor

[3toheadmelo]

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He’s a Brandon Jennings type PG. He can score, has a mean streak, and his game is not conductive to winning.

That’s what they said about Booker and Lavine

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Lavine also had a +/- of -540 in his rookie season

[Chanel Bomber]

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He’s a Brandon Jennings type PG. He can score, has a mean streak, and his game is not conductive to winning.

These stats are not a good look for Sexton but we must consider how:

- The Cavs have been a mess ever since he joined the NBA, with subpar coaching and even worse teammates. I look at his +/- moreso as an indictment against the Cavs, unless you think it was reasonable to expect him to carry a bum team out of the doldrums.

- Too much was expected of him early, with an unreasonable burden of leading a team of bums as a very young player.

- His efficiency in this role suggests that he could be even more efficient with a lighter burden. Efficient players tend to be adaptable and able to adjust to a lesser role. Sexton is much more efficient than Jennings ever was.

- Have to separate floor raisers vs ceiling raisers. Sexton doesn't (yet) have the feel for the game or the gravity to be a floor raiser, as was the case for Booker. But he could potentially make a good team better in a role that's more suited to his strengths.

I'm not completely sold on him, but him being available is a clear opportunity.

[jvsimonetti0514]

That’s what they said about Booker and Lavine

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Sexton’s third year is worst than Bookers rookie year though. His best year is worst than bookers worst year but this is supposed to make a point

With the exception of Sexton's rookie year their +/- isn't really that different at all. Booker even regressed from his 2nd and 3rd year. It would have been really easy to look at those numbers and say he's just an empty stats but around the right personal he was able to make a positive impact.

[sol537]

Knicks are doing the following:

Trading Knox, Obi, #21 for Sexton
Trading #19 for Lonzo Ball
Drafting that Belgian dude at 32
Flipping pick #58 for future 2nd rounders in 2028,2029

Buzztrodamus has spoken

Maybe

[WargamesX]

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He’s a Brandon Jennings type PG. He can score, has a mean streak, and his game is not conductive to winning.

These stats are not a good look for Sexton but we must consider how:

- The Cavs have been a mess ever since he joined the NBA, with subpar coaching and even worse teammates. I look at his +/- moreso as an indictment against the Cavs, unless you think it was reasonable to expect him to carry a bum team out of the doldrums.

- Too much was expected of him early, with an unreasonable burden of leading a team of bums as a very young player.

- His efficiency in this role suggests that he could be even more efficient with a lighter burden. Efficient players tend to be adaptable and able to adjust to a lesser role. Sexton is much more efficient than Jennings ever was.

- Have to separate floor raisers vs ceiling raisers. Sexton doesn't (yet) have the feel for the game or the gravity to be a floor raiser, as was the case for Booker. But he could potentially make a good team better in a role that's more suited to his strengths.

I'm not completely sold on him, but him being available is a clear opportunity.

Feels like you are talking about Frank

[Jeff Van Gully]

mr. sex, hit me off with this drug. call it track.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Brandon Jennings is probably the worst comp you can even give Sexton. In his 11 year career he shot over 40% from the field just twice and one year it was 40.1. At least who ever used Monte Ellis had a few years of similar efficiency to Sexton so that's at least fair.

[KnicksGadfly]

So anyone know when trades are allowed? Is it the draft?

[SARGO127]

So anyone know when trades are allowed? Is it the draft?

Now

We saw the Kemba deal already

[RHODEY]

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He’s a Brandon Jennings type PG. He can score, has a mean streak, and his game is not conductive to winning.

These stats are not a good look for Sexton but we must consider how:

- The Cavs have been a mess ever since he joined the NBA, with subpar coaching and even worse teammates. I look at his +/- moreso as an indictment against the Cavs, unless you think it was reasonable to expect him to carry a bum team out of the doldrums.

- Too much was expected of him early, with an unreasonable burden of leading a team of bums as a very young player.

- His efficiency in this role suggests that he could be even more efficient with a lighter burden. Efficient players tend to be adaptable and able to adjust to a lesser role. Sexton is much more efficient than Jennings ever was.

- Have to separate floor raisers vs ceiling raisers. Sexton doesn't (yet) have the feel for the game or the gravity to be a floor raiser, as was the case for Booker. But he could potentially make a good team better in a role that's more suited to his strengths.

I'm not completely sold on him, but him being available is a clear opportunity.

Right , he's in that grey area where his team stats are bad enough and he's redundant enoughto make him available but his individual stats and youth are good enough to suggest he could...

a) Improve from a team perspective or..

b) Retain enough value to be flipped down the line for another player who would help us.

[N8isScofield]

"We need a Cam Johnson, or a Bridges or a Duncan Robinson who can keep the floor spread."

Yes. But keep cherry picking Duncan Robinson. What exactly are RJ and Randle doing while Short Yung Melo chucks his way to 28 every night? Or are we trading RJ? Who exactly is making the space for a $29 million abyss of non-passing to do his chucking?

Enjoy Dion Waiters the Second. Makes sense though given your hard on for DSJ.

Do you actually know what chucking is? The kid shoots almost 50% from the field. That's not chucking. Learn basketball before talking basketball.

Scoring is something we really lacked in the playoffs. Honestly Collins Sexton with us against the Hawks would of been a great help to our roster. The extra scoring relieves the burden off of Randle as well as keeps the defense a bit more honest. Yes Barrett had a moment of growing pains. Scoring wise Collins has the stones to put points on the board. To pull up and hit two clutch threes against KD and Kyrie in one game shows he isn’t afraid of the moment. Doesn’t mean he will do it all the time. But it shows he embraces playing at that level. I don’t see the Hawks Collins and Trae running their mouth to Sexton without Sexton rising up to the challenge. I felt the Knicks were pushed around a bit in the playoffs. It was hard for me watch

Agree completely. Nobody on our team except Rose really took it to Atlanta for any stretch of time. Sexton is the kind of guy that you can see gets up for the competition. Kinda like Dame and Westbrook. Does that mean that maybe you have to reign him in on occasion? Sure but so what? I would rather reign in outrageous talent than let mediocrity run free.

[WargamesX]

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Sexton’s third year is worst than Bookers rookie year though. His best year is worst than bookers worst year but this is supposed to make a point

With the exception of Sexton's rookie year their +/- isn't really that different at all. Booker even regressed from his 2nd and 3rd year. It would have been really easy to look at those numbers and say he's just an empty stats but around the right personal he was able to make a positive impact.

The stats show Booker was better than Sexton every year in the league.

Anyhow it’s an absurd argument to compare Sexton to Booker and Lavine because two of them are 6’6 SG’s and the other (Sexton) is a 6’1 SG. If Sexton was 6’6 and played the game he did the Cavs wouldn’t be trading him.

[DOT]

Raw +/- is kinda useless just for a single player. You gotta take the rest of the team into account

Like how for the Knicks, Elfrid was a -98 on the year, with Noel being the only other starter (really even the only guy who got regular minutes the whole year) who had a negative +/- at -2. Our 3rd worst starter was Bullock, at +107, which says a lot about Elfrid

With Sexton, the Cavs were terrible, so raw numbers out of context are kinda meaningless, so you have to compare him to the rest of the team. His Net on/off was -1.9, coming from the Cavs having a -9.2 Net with him on and -7.3 with him off. Compare that to someone like Garland, who was still deeply negative when he was on at -6.6, the difference is when Garland was off, the Cavs were a -10.4, meaning despite the Cavs still being one of the worst teams in the league when he played (-6.6 Net would be 5th worst of all teams), they were even worse with him off court (2nd only to the Thunder)

Also to compare him to Garland, the Cavs were a -8.1 when they played together, a -10.7 with Sexton and no Garland, and a -5.1 with Garland and no Sexton. In case people were wondering why they want to keep Garland, not Sexton.

[nedleeds]

I’d do that Obi, Knox and a first rounder for Sexton. And that’s it.

I would also do this trade. I see no upside past 6th man energy bench big in Obi at his age and stiffness, in fact if he's ever Larry Nance Jr. he'll have exceeded my expectations. Knox is mentally not going to make it here.

What IS Larry Nace Jr making, by the way? Maybe Cleveland trades him to the Knicks too and he can be 2nd year Obi for the season.
They are about the same age, right?

Age 29 season coming up. He signed one of those declining contracts which is really good.

21-22 22-23
$10,690,909 $9,672,727

Good contract for a rotation 4/5. Got up to 36% on 3s on 3.3 a game. Not exactly Dirk, but respectable. Good defensive metrics despite playing behind two parking cones in Garland and Sexton. I think he's seen as a good worker, good character guy around the league. He'd fit well and would be a serious upgrade from Taj, who could just start his coaching career.

Back up Randle at the 4 a little, back up Mitch at the 5.

[nedleeds]

Brandon Jennings is probably the worst comp you can even give Sexton. In his 11 year career he shot over 40% from the field just twice and one year it was 40.1. At least who ever used Monte Ellis had a few years of similar efficiency to Sexton so that's at least fair.

[3toheadmelo]

Sexton’s third year is worst than Bookers rookie year though. His best year is worst than bookers worst year but this is supposed to make a point

With the exception of Sexton's rookie year their +/- isn't really that different at all. Booker even regressed from his 2nd and 3rd year. It would have been really easy to look at those numbers and say he's just an empty stats but around the right personal he was able to make a positive impact.

The stats show Booker was better than Sexton every year in the league.

Anyhow it’s an absurd argument to compare Sexton to Booker and Lavine because two of them are 6’6 SG’s and the other (Sexton) is a 6’1 SG. If Sexton was 6’6 and played the game he did the Cavs wouldn’t be trading him.

The stats show that both of them had similar horrible individual stats.

Lavine also had a plus minus of -540 in his rookie year which is worse than Sexton is right now. I guess he sucks too.

It’s not absurd to compare Sexton with them because his scoring and effiency is on the same trajectory as them.

[Capn'O]

Raw +/- is kinda useless just for a single player. You gotta take the rest of the team into account

Like how for the Knicks, Elfrid was a -98 on the year, with Noel being the only other starter (really even the only guy who got regular minutes the whole year) who had a negative +/- at -2. Our 3rd worst starter was Bullock, at +107, which says a lot about Elfrid

With Sexton, the Cavs were terrible, so raw numbers out of context are kinda meaningless, so you have to compare him to the rest of the team. His Net on/off was -1.9, coming from the Cavs having a -9.2 Net with him on and -7.3 with him off. Compare that to someone like Garland, who was still deeply negative when he was on at -6.6, the difference is when Garland was off, the Cavs were a -10.4, meaning despite the Cavs still being one of the worst teams in the league when he played (-6.6 Net would be 5th worst of all teams), they were even worse with him off court (2nd only to the Thunder)

Also to compare him to Garland, the Cavs were a -8.1 when they played together, a -10.7 with Sexton and no Garland, and a -5.1 with Garland and no Sexton. In case people were wondering why they want to keep Garland, not Sexton.

Garland is the type of player you can pretty much plug in anywhere and the team improves. His game is suited for spacing and ball movement. Sexton, you probably need a better foundation around him but he's a guy that can get tough buckets. It's just hard to properly evaluate a player on such a godawful team, especially a very young player. High usage players are going to look worse because they don't have the dirty work guys around them to make up for their deficiencies nor guys who know how to win that keep them in line.

[WargamesX]

Brandon Jennings is probably the worst comp you can even give Sexton. In his 11 year career he shot over 40% from the field just twice and one year it was 40.1. At least who ever used Monte Ellis had a few years of similar efficiency to Sexton so that's at least fair.

Watch their games. Monta was a freak of Nature who I swear use to go into a game and decide “I’m going to score” and would only score but it would be a great scoring game. Then the media would complain and say he needs to pass and Monta would say “I’m going to pass” and that game would be a great passing game but the scoring would be a struggle.

Jennings was a scoring SG in a PG’s body, not a great defender, and he had a mean streak in him that if you gave him a reason he could drop 50 on you. Jennings had some 6 and 7 assist seasons but he wasn’t a great passer because everyone had to play off of him. His passing was C&S to stationary shooter, passing from the baseline (after defenders surrounded him on bad drives), transition or at the rim to Centers. To put it into perspective it would be level of passing RJ could do.

Keep in mind I am not even saying that isn’t the level of passing the Knicks need, but yeah Sexton plays like Jennings and just like Jennings he might be a little too ball dominant for his own good (aka winning), at the same time he plays his best when he is ball dominant so he needs to be ball dominant to play his best game.

Both Monta and Jennings would thrive as 6th man at best and I can’t see Sexton thriving in a starting unit where he has to lower his time on ball to maybe 20% tops

[3toheadmelo]

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[spree2kawhi]

This escalated quickly. What's the score? And even more importantly: Who had the better sophomore year?