Draft Thread Part 8: 4th pick !!!!

[aligator]

Make up should be extremely important in the selection decision.

[Spida888]

I like Kuminga, but wouldn't take him at #4.

Maybe Masai is playing 4D chess here. Have Kuminga come in for a workout so that Cavs get anxious and draft him at #3 because they don't want to risk trading down .

Then Green/Mobley falls to us .

[bon]

Kuminga working out with the Raps is perfect.

Now all the front office has to do is leak that they think he's the best player in the draft

Then we watch the Cavs scramble

[Jcity08]

Well I wouldn’t phrase it as due diligence vs being thorough..

Due diligence imo is a bit dismissive.

As if they already know but might as well just in case and really there's no reason yet to assume that. I mean surely if we had only mild interest at best we could've sent any number of different people to go and watch his workouts....

Instead out of every scout, GM or President in the league, who was sitting dead front and center???

MASAI.

That doesn't seem like just kicking the can around. Given what we've done with much rawer prospects like OG and Pascal...and he's far ahead of what they were coming in despite being several years younger. No reason to think they wouldn't be at minimum very interested to know and see more. I'm certainly not implying he's our pick but I think it's more than just a passing interest.

I totally agree, good organizations like the Raptors are extremely through in their analysis, they just dont stop at mock drafts and a few video tapes of select games a player was in before deciding who they are picking.

I feel like PrinceAli meant the same thing though, even though due diligence isn't the most accurate word to use for this process.

Like I say, I'll trust the Raps FO, since they are very thorough in their evaluation, even moreso with a top pick. Even when they miss on a player, they dont leave stones unturned.

[dgr81]

https://www.si.com/college/usc/basketball/evan-mobley-nba-draft

Report: Houston Rockets Having 'Internal Debate' about USC Hooper Evan Mobley

NBA insider believes Houston is split between Mobley and Jalen Green.

The NBA Draft is right around the corner, which means USC freshman Evan Mobley is one step closer to landing on a NBA roster.

According to NBA insider Chad Ford, the Houston Rockets front office is split between Mobley and shooting guard Jalen Green.

"The Rockets are working hard to acquire more draft picks in an effort to move up to No. 1 to select Cade Cunningham. They’ve dangled Eric Gordon and one of their late first round picks to the Pacers in exchange for the No. 13 pick in hopes that a combination of 2 and 13 would be enough for the Pistons to move down one spot in the draft," Green writes.

"The consensus around the league right now is that it will be either Green or Mobley. You can make the case for either player in Houston, and sources say that there’s an internal debate as well with the analytics side favoring Mobley and the more traditional scouting side favoring Green.

Either player would be a major upgrade for the Rockets, but for now I’m sticking with Mobley here. His size and analytics advantages are just too good to pass on."

The 7-foot forward is a consensus top-three pick, despite only playing one season with the Trojans.

During his time in Southern California, he averaged 16.4 points, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 blocks, and 2.4 assists per game. He was 57.8 percent shooting from the field, 69.4 percent shooting from the free throw line, and 30 percent shooting from three-point range.

[Clutch0z24]

That’s definitely selling him short. He’s a good passer and playmaker as well. The gamble is definitely his shooting. People are concerned about Suggs shooting and Barnes is definitely a step behind that. Hard to create consistently at the NBA level without being an offensive threat yourself.


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I guess it just bugs me when players get hyped up and over valued cause of these "Writers" and "Reporters"....Barnes is a decent prospect but he was projected to be in the 7-10 range all year long, Not Sniffing the top end of the draft and now based off what did he jump from that range all the way up to top 5 where the Top 4 have been at the top of the board all year long without any doubts or questions....

The Top 4 are Just so much more polished and have way more upside than anyone else outside of that top 4 that its not even close tbh...

Barnes would been awesome to get at 7 if we stayed there but at 4 people need to stop reaching for potential busts when we will never get a high end pick like this for many years ....You can find players like Barnes...The Talent of this Top 4 is to good to pass up on...I don't wanna be the Pistons and get Darko'd

Your logic here doesn't make sense to me.

You say we don't want to get Darko'd. At the same time you don't like the idea of a player breaking into the top 4 , because there's been a virtual consensus the whole season on who would go top 4-5.

Darko was 1000% part of a consensus at the top of the 2003 draft, some scouts were saying he should go 1st. It was a full year of that message in the media.

On the other hand D Wade moved his way up the draft board and was in the 7-12 range by the tourney. Obviously, he ended up 5th by draft day.

In retrospect, Detroit should have selected Wade (a 1st ballot HOF) over Melo and Bosh as well, not just Darko.

It's possible that the consensus is wrong. To me, if Masai selects Barnes it's because he is trying to avoid getting Darko'd. I.e. falling into the media driven consensus.

Masai and the team are, IMO, the demonstrated best scouts in the league, better than who ever is putting together these mocks.

Im saying Barnes just like Darko got hyped up by the "Draft Specialists" or people that "Know the draft" and the Media saying hes going to be this stud and has the most "Upside" in the draft just like they are doing with Barnes right now when in reality there are just better talent at the top of the draft....If you go back and watch Melo/Wade/Bosh college highlights It was obvious Darko had no place in that top 5 of the Draft let alone 2...... you can tell (Just like Suggs/Mobley/Green) that they are far ahead of Barnes in terms of overall play that its laughable to consider taking a flyer on Barnes Based on "Potential" Alone and thank god Masai is a smart GM and knows this and won't waste this pick on a prayer for Barnes to be any kind of threat on offense whats so ever...

Still think one of Suggs/Mobley are a Raptor come the 29th

[dgr81]

Chad Ford's Latest Big Board

1 Cade Cunningham
2 Evan Mobley
3 Jalen Green
4 Scottie Barnes
5 Jalen Suggs
6 Jonathan Kuminga
7 Davion Mitchell
8 Keon Johnson
9 Franz Wagner
10 Josh Giddey
11 James Bouknight
12 Jalen Johnson
13 Alperen Sengun
14 Corey Kispert
15 Moses Moody
16 Isaiah Jackson
17 Ziaire Williams
18 Usman Garuba
19 Chris Duarte
20 Sharife Cooper
21 Miles McBride
22 Trey Murphy III
23 Kai Jones
24 Jared Butler
25 Joshua Primo
26 Jaden Springer
27 Isaiah Todd
28 Josh Christopher
29 Tre Mann
30 Nah'Shon Hyland
31 JT Thor
32 Cameron Thomas
33 Ayo Dosunmu
34 Vrenz Bleijenbergh
35 Day'Ron Sharpe
36 Greg Brown III
37 Brandon Boston Jr.
38 Chris Smith
39 Quentin Grimes
40 Neemias Queta
41 Herbert Jones
42 Joe Wieskamp
43 Rokas Jokubaitis
44 David Johnson
45 Roko Prkacin
46 RaiQuan Gray
47 Joel Ayayi
48 Charles Bassey
49 Ibou Badji
50 Kessler Edwards
51 Filip Petrusev
52 Juhann Begarin
53 Aaron Henry
54 Jason Preston
55 Daishen Nix
56 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl
57 Jericho Sims
58 Luka Garza
59 Santi Aldama
60 Isaiah Livers
61 Trendon Watford
62 David Duke
63 Marcus Garrett
64 Makur Maker
65 Ariel Hukporti
66 Justin Champagnie
67 Austin Reaves
68 Aaron Wiggins
69 AJ Lawson
70 Gui Santos
71 McKinley Wright IV
72 Mario Nakic
73 Amar Sylla
74 Matthew Hurt
75 Sandro Mamukelashvili
76 Duane Washington Jr.
77 Moses Wright
78 John Petty Jr.
79 Scottie Lewis
80 Yves Pons

His Latest Mock Draft

DET - Cade Cunningham
HOU - Evan Mobley
CLE - Jalen Green
TOR - Scottie Barnes
ORL - Jalen Suggs
OKC - Jonathan Kuminga
GS (via MIN) - Davion Mitchell
ORL (via CHI) - James Bouknight
SAC - Franz Wagner
NO - Josh Giddey
CHA - Alperen Şengün
SA - Usman Garuba
IND - Corey Kispert
GS - Keon Johnson
WAS - Moses Moody
OKC (via BOS) - Ziaire Williams
MEM - Jalen Johnson
OKC (via MIA) - Isaiah Jackson
NY - Chris Duarte
ATL - Jaden Springer
NY (via DAL) - Miles McBride
LAL - Kai Jones
HOU (via POR) - Sharife Cooper
HOU (via MIL) - Trey Murphy III
DEN - Josh Christopher (this isn’t even the right order this is the Clippers pick)
LAC - Jared Butler
BKN - Day’Ron Sharpe
PHI - Joshua Primo
PHX - Tre Mann
UTAH - JT Thor
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MIL (via HOU) - Nah’Shon Hyland
NY (via DET) - Cameron Thomas
ORL - Isaiah Todd
OKC - Vrenz Bleijenbergh
NO (via CLE) - Joe Wieskamp
OKC (via MIN) - Ibou Dianko Badji
DET (via TOR) - Greg Brown III
CHI (via NO) - Ayo Dosunmu
SAC - Herbert Jones
NO (via CHI) - Roko Prkačin
SA - Neemias Queta
DET (via CHA) - Brandon Boston Jr.
NO (via WAS) - Rokas Jokubaitis
BKN (via IND) - Quentin Grimes
BOS - Jason Preston
TOR (via MEM) - RaiQuan Gray
TOR (via GS) - Juhann Bégarin
ATL (via MIA) - Charles Bassey
BKN (via ATL) - Filip Petrušev
PHI (via NY) - Chris Smith
MEM (via POR) - David Johnson
DET (via LAL) - Jericho Sims
NO (via DAL) - Santi Aldama
IND (via MIL) - Kessler Edwards
OKC (via DEN) - Ariel Hukporti
CHA (via LAC) - Aaron Henry
CHA (via BKN) - Joel Ayayi
NY (via PHI) - Daishen Nix
BKN (via PHX) - Jeremiah Robinson-Earl
IND (via UTAH) - Isaiah Livers

Courtesy of /u/temetrius2edrice on Reddit

[So Clutch]

I wanred everyone about Kuminga

I've been doing this long enough to know what Gms like. Guys like Kuminga. His situation seems a lot like Jalyn Brown. Was projected in that 6-9 range and went 3.

Let’s not forget this all time thread made by the guy who seemingly knows how to be a GM

viewtopic.php?p=74760312#p74760312

this guy is so againt me just bc I like kuminga.

He really is never gonna be able to speak again if Kuminga gets picked top 4. idk anything, I just have an opinion. You guys claim to know as fact it's a certain order and that's the bottom line when in the history of this draft that has never happened.

You're the troll w the power struggle.

Oh, he’ll be able to speak fine. Just like how you’re able to continue to speak after being completely wrong on things over and over again.


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[PD28]

I like Kuminga, but wouldn't take him at #4.

Maybe Masai is playing 4D chess here. Have Kuminga come in for a workout so that Cavs get anxious and draft him at #3 because they don't want to risk trading down .

Then Green/Mobley falls to us .

This is exactly what I'm thinking. No need to let anyone think we won't take him. Best to act like a wildcard.

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[dgr81]

If all the Barnes to Toronto rumors are true, then you have to think the raps are moving on from Pascal. I don't see how Barnes fits with OG and Pascal. Masai probably wants a full rebuild too. That's probably the sticking point with his contract.

FVV/Malachi
Wiggins/GTJ
OG/7th pick
Boucher/Barnes
FA (Holmes?)/Birch

[Kreamy]

Even if the Raps believe Barnes has the highest upside, how will he fit and develop next to Siakam and OG? Will he start at C or will we use him off the bench? Seems like a waste of a 4th pick if we have to bring him off the bench to basically provide what Siakam and OG already do.

[thunderforce]

I want to see most is ibm watson's draft ranking .

[mtcan]

If all the Barnes to Toronto rumors are true, then you have to think the raps are moving on from Pascal. I don't see how Barnes fits with OG and Pascal. Masai probably wants a full rebuild too. That's probably the sticking point with his contract.

FVV/Malachi
Wiggins/GTJ
OG/7th pick
Boucher/Barnes
FA (Holmes?)/Birch

I would do a Wiggins/Wiseman/#7 or Wiggins/#7/#14 trade that moves Pascal to GS.

Bouknight would be my #7 pick. If we have #14, I'd be looking at Kai Jones

I just think that if our #4 pick isn't Jalen Green or Suggs...you need to pick up another top 10 pick to select a guard/wing to bolster our wing scoring.

[DelAbbot]

If all the Barnes to Toronto rumors are true, then you have to think the raps are moving on from Pascal. I don't see how Barnes fits with OG and Pascal. Masai probably wants a full rebuild too. That's probably the sticking point with his contract.

This implication is exactly right. Not enough people are talking about this.

Even if our FO believes Barnes is the BPA at #4, it will create a logjam that has to be resolved within a year by trading someone out of Barnes/OG/Siakam. None of them can play Center on permanent basis as we saw in tampa.

[dgr81]

If all the Barnes to Toronto rumors are true, then you have to think the raps are moving on from Pascal. I don't see how Barnes fits with OG and Pascal. Masai probably wants a full rebuild too. That's probably the sticking point with his contract.

FVV/Malachi
Wiggins/GTJ
OG/7th pick
Boucher/Barnes
FA (Holmes?)/Birch

I would do a Wiggins/Wiseman/#7 or Wiggins/#7/#14 trade that moves Pascal to GS.

Bouknight would be my #7 pick. If we have #14, I'd be looking at Kai Jones

I just think that if our #4 pick isn't Jalen Green or Suggs...you need to pick up another top 10 pick to select a guard/wing to bolster our wing scoring.

if raps end up with 4 and 7 i take Barnes at 4 and Kuminga/Giddey at 7. Both can play the 3. Kuminga is falling. Not sure how far, but he might be available at 7.

FVV/Malachi
Wiggins/GTJ
OG/Kuminga
Barnes/Boucher
Wiseman/FA

That's a young team (minus fred) that can grow together and could compete in a few years. At least they would be fun to watch.

[Kreamy]

If all the Barnes to Toronto rumors are true, then you have to think the raps are moving on from Pascal. I don't see how Barnes fits with OG and Pascal. Masai probably wants a full rebuild too. That's probably the sticking point with his contract.

FVV/Malachi
Wiggins/GTJ
OG/7th pick
Boucher/Barnes
FA (Holmes?)/Birch

I would do a Wiggins/Wiseman/#7 or Wiggins/#7/#14 trade that moves Pascal to GS.

Bouknight would be my #7 pick. If we have #14, I'd be looking at Kai Jones

I just think that if our #4 pick isn't Jalen Green or Suggs...you need to pick up another top 10 pick to select a guard/wing to bolster our wing scoring.

if raps end up with 4 and 7 i take Barnes at 4 and Kuminga/Giddey at 7. Both can play the 3. Kuminga is falling. Not sure how far, but he might be available at 7.

FVV/Malachi
Wiggins/GTJ
OG/Kuminga
Barnes/Boucher
Wiseman/FA

That's a young team (minus fred) that can grow together and could compete in a few years. At least they would be fun to watch.

Only problem with that team is the offense will be inefficient and painful to watch. Selecting both Barnes and Kuminga poses the same issue we'd have with Barnes/Siakam/OG.

[billy_hoyle]

I guess it just bugs me when players get hyped up and over valued cause of these "Writers" and "Reporters"....Barnes is a decent prospect but he was projected to be in the 7-10 range all year long, Not Sniffing the top end of the draft and now based off what did he jump from that range all the way up to top 5 where the Top 4 have been at the top of the board all year long without any doubts or questions....

The Top 4 are Just so much more polished and have way more upside than anyone else outside of that top 4 that its not even close tbh...

Barnes would been awesome to get at 7 if we stayed there but at 4 people need to stop reaching for potential busts when we will never get a high end pick like this for many years ....You can find players like Barnes...The Talent of this Top 4 is to good to pass up on...I don't wanna be the Pistons and get Darko'd

Your logic here doesn't make sense to me.

You say we don't want to get Darko'd. At the same time you don't like the idea of a player breaking into the top 4 , because there's been a virtual consensus the whole season on who would go top 4-5.

Darko was 1000% part of a consensus at the top of the 2003 draft, some scouts were saying he should go 1st. It was a full year of that message in the media.

On the other hand D Wade moved his way up the draft board and was in the 7-12 range by the tourney. Obviously, he ended up 5th by draft day.

In retrospect, Detroit should have selected Wade (a 1st ballot HOF) over Melo and Bosh as well, not just Darko.

It's possible that the consensus is wrong. To me, if Masai selects Barnes it's because he is trying to avoid getting Darko'd. I.e. falling into the media driven consensus.

Masai and the team are, IMO, the demonstrated best scouts in the league, better than who ever is putting together these mocks.

Im saying Barnes just like Darko got hyped up by the "Draft Specialists" or people that "Know the draft" and the Media saying hes going to be this stud and has the most "Upside" in the draft just like they are doing with Barnes right now when in reality there are just better talent at the top of the draft....If you go back and watch Melo/Wade/Bosh college highlights It was obvious Darko had no place in that top 5 of the Draft let alone 2...... you can tell (Just like Suggs/Mobley/Green) that they are far ahead of Barnes in terms of overall play that its laughable to consider taking a flyer on Barnes Based on "Potential" Alone and thank god Masai is a smart GM and knows this and won't waste this pick on a prayer for Barnes to be any kind of threat on offense whats so ever...

Still think one of Suggs/Mobley are a Raptor come the 29th

Did you follow the 2003 draft?

I did. I don't get your point. Scouts were talking up Darko for the entire year. There was video of him doing incredible things in Europe, and scouts drooled over his talent level. He was very skilled as a 17 yr old 7 footer. The Raptors would have loved to get him at 4, everyone in this board would have loved to get him too.

What's the difference between that and Green,Mobley and Suggs? Haven't the draft experts been hyping them up all year? Why are these guys the Melo Wade and Bosh?

Let's take Green for example. Here's a guy that was hyped pre-season as a top highschool prospect, plays in the G league for a dozen games, and does stuff that might, or might not translate to the NBA. We don't have any data to show what production he should be getting to predict him a star in the NBA. There are guys putting up insane numbers every year in the G-league that become scrubs/fringe players in the NBA.

The point is the consensus can be wrong, and, historically, usually is wrong. At least in parts. If Masai drafts Barnes it's because he thinks he's a better pick to translate and grow his skills at the highest level.

That's the hard part here. Figuring out who has the skills that will grow and translate.

He might be avoiding a Darko.

What was your response to Masai picking Siakam over Skal 5 yrs ago?Mine was confusion. I hadn't seen Siakam play, and had been drooling over Skals skills for over a year. Masai was right on that one, and on most others. Now if he picks Barnes over Mobley/Suggs/Green, I'd say thats part criticism of the player left, and possibly, just as much about his projection on what Barnes can be.

These guys aren't static values that correspond to the consensus mocks. They are dynamic people that will grow, learn and develop into different players than they are today. Hopefully, you pick the guy that improves the most, and fits within a general winning team construct.

[tdotrep2]

barnes has less scoring fluidity than og, he looks like a 5 year old and he tries to create off the dribble. no thanks man

[Jcity08]

I dont think the front office would trade a player solely due to a pick. They arent that reactionary.

With that said, if they like Barnes and they dont see any value trades for Siakam, we could see a lineup with OG, Barnes and Siakam next season.

A lot of if's to get to that point however. So who knows.

[dgr81]

barnes has less scoring fluidity than og, he looks like a 5 year old and he tries to create off the dribble. no thanks man

i'm pro suggs/mobely/green personally but barnes ball handling and passing ability is well ahead of OG even being 4 years younger.

barnes is a poor mans ben simmons without the ego and salary.