2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Discussion Thread

[falcolombardi]

if middleton and jrue were players who need to be first option or a prominente second option to be effective that would more a issue with them than with giannis tbh

jrue is not a player who can be the offensive best player of a championship team, neither is middleton (although i think he is a bit closer and is a better 2nd option thsn jrue)
if they really cannot be your "sidekicks" but also cannot be your main star then they would be flawed players and unadequate help for giannis

giannis is actually a player with great offensive impact offball despite not being a shooter, if he is someone they cannot thrive with that is more on their weaknesses as player

i think we are starting to see thinghs from the wrong point of view when de blame franchise players for making their teammates less prominent, like of course they will be less prominent when they share the ball with another star

is on them as much as it is on giannis if they dont fit well together imo, for the record i dont thinl they are bad co stars, i think they are really valuable players

but if they are being paid like max or quaximax players they need to justify it and thrive in their 2nd amd 3rd option roles

[Doctor MJ]

Hey y'all,

So, I'll be leaving town tomorrow for a bit over a week, by which time the NBA Finals will be over. I'll make a voting thread soon after I get back, and will leave it up for a week before I count the votes.

As stated before, the idea is that you earn a vote by either participating this year's discussion, or by previously been established as a good faith voter. PM me if you have questions, though I may not get back to you until I return.

Cheers,
Doc

[falcolombardi]

how does everyone feel about giannis vs jokic at this point?

would a great or bad closing performance by giannis swing your opinion either way

[Colbinii]

how does everyone feel about giannis vs jokic at this point?

would a great or bad closing performance by giannis swing your opinion either way

I'll go for Giannis (Just as I have always voted LeBron when he is clearly the best player in the Finals and close enough the rest of the season) no matter what at this point. I also have Curry/Embiid at 3 and 4. At 5 is where things really get interesting for me. Kawhi, Luka, Gobert and Durant are all in play here.

[Dutchball97]

I'm not entirely sure on Jokic vs Giannis yet but since I already had Giannis at #2 coming into the play-offs it does make it a bit easier to move him up with such a strong post-season showing. For spots 3, 4 and 5 I've pretty much settled on Embiid, Kawhi and Curry. Probably in that order as well.

[iggymcfrack]

I was super willing to just give it to Jokic the way things were looking for most of the playoffs, but after THAT performance? 50, 14, and 5 blocks on insane efficiency to close out the series on insane efficiency? It has to be Giannis. That has to be in contention for best individual game AND series in an NBA Finals.

[Odinn21]

I'm not entirely sure on Jokic vs Giannis yet but since I already had Giannis at #2 coming into the play-offs it does make it a bit easier to move him up with such a strong post-season showing. For spots 3, 4 and 5 I've pretty much settled on Embiid, Kawhi and Curry. Probably in that order as well.

I'll just keep Jokic at my #1 pretty solidly. His regular season performance was just matched by Curry and it wasn't like he sucked in the playoffs. He actually performed better compared to regular season in the absence of Murray, and it wasn't just Murray. The Nuggets rotation was pretty shaken up.

Antetokounmpo definitely had one of the goat finals series, an insane close-out game, he was unreal in the last 5 games. Otoh, his performance against the Nets was worse than what should've been, he was outclassed by Durant and Antetokounmpo & the Bucks barely escaped from a really close game 7. There's also the fact that he missed 2 games in ECF and his team closed out the series without him with 2 double digit victories.

I think emotions and hype are running high right now and it's natural as it can get. The dude had one of the best finals series ever and also had goat level title-clinching performance.
But with all the context involved, I don't think Jokic loses #1 spot just because Antetokounmpo had this finals series as if he did not have issues before.

[iggymcfrack]

I'm not entirely sure on Jokic vs Giannis yet but since I already had Giannis at #2 coming into the play-offs it does make it a bit easier to move him up with such a strong post-season showing. For spots 3, 4 and 5 I've pretty much settled on Embiid, Kawhi and Curry. Probably in that order as well.

I'll just keep Jokic at my #1 pretty solidly. His regular season performance was just matched by Curry and it wasn't like he sucked in the playoffs. He actually performed better compared to regular season in the absence of Murray, and it wasn't just Murray. The Nuggets rotation was pretty shaken up.

Antetokounmpo definitely had one of the goat finals series, an insane close-out game, he was unreal in the last 5 games. Otoh, his performance against the Nets was worse than what should've been, he was outclassed by Durant and Antetokounmpo & the Bucks barely escaped from a really close game 7. There's also the fact that he missed 2 games in ECF and his team closed out the series without him with 2 double digit victories.

I think emotions and hype are running high right now and it's natural as it can get. The dude had one of the best finals series ever and also had goat level title-clinching performance.
But with all the context involved, I don't think Jokic loses #1 spot just because Antetokounmpo had this finals series as if he did not have issues before.

I don’t think you’re giving Giannis enough credit for the Brooklyn series. After going down 2-0, he had 33/14, 34/12, 34/12, 30/17, and 40/13 on good efficiency and he came through super clutch in Game 7. I did have Giannis #2 after the regular season though so it wasn’t as far to climb for me.

[falcolombardi]

it la important to ask what is player of the year supposed to be about

best overall player? or best overall year?

if we say the first then winning or even making the playoffs shouldnt be a factor, lebron would be player of the year every year between 2008-2018

if we include how well they play in the playoffs we need to know how much value reg.season vs playoffs has

is playing incredible for one round like mitchell in 2020 enough? or do we give more value to longer play-off runs

and if we go with "best overall" year, then how do de balance out team success with individual impact?

[Dutchball97]

In the end it is all subjective. After this 50/14/2/0/5 performance on 64/33/90% shooting to close out a reverse sweep in the finals I'm definitely going to vote for Giannis first. Jokic was exploited on defense in the play-offs and he never really got the playmaking going either, I don't think Jokic was so much better than Giannis in the regular season that a run like this can't turn the tide. I think people are sleeping on Giannis' regular season, he wasn't much worse than he was in his MVP seasons.

[TheGOATRises007]

I've got Giannis 1st after the finals. I just don't know how you can ignore how incredible he was in the finals.

He was pretty damn good vs the Nets too once they went down 0-2 as well.

I also think he got better as a player this year and it showed full circle in the finals.

[Dupp]

Giannis probably should have been first before the finals. Now its not even remotely close. Dude just had an all time finals after he was suppose to be out for the season.

His season was also super underrated because of what hes done the past 2 years.

[iggymcfrack]

By Game Score, Giannis just had the greatest finals of all time and his Game 6 was the 2nd greatest finals game ever behind LeBron’s Game 6 in 2016.

[falcolombardi]

looking at the first post

"Key to understanding: This is an award based on accomplishment for the past year, rather than who would have done what had things been different"

i dont see how we can pick jokic under this criteria unless we heavily value regular season compared to playoffs

and looking at other winners like wade in 2006or lebron in 2016 it seems clear being the best regular season player is not enough on its own to win

[Outside]

I'd have to go back and check, but I think I had Giannis second in POY at the end of the season and the only one with a realistic chance to pass Jokic. (Maybe Embiid?) Since the end of the second round, it's just been Giannis with a chance to pass Jokic.

Jokic was clearly ahead at the end of the RS, but Giannis wasn't that far behind.

Giannis per game, 61 games, 2013 minutes played
28.1 pts, 11.0 reb, 5.9 ast, 1.2 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.4 tov, .633 TS%, .244 WS/48, 10.10 LEBRON wins added, 13.6 RAPTOR WAR

Jokic per game, 72 games, 2488 minutes played
26.4 pts, 9.8 reb, 8.3 ast, 1.3 stl, 0.7 blk, 3.1 tov, .647 TS%, .301 WS/48, 14.30 LEBRON wins added, 17.5 RAPTOR WAR

Besides the stats, each has narrative-type points in their favor. For Jokic, it's playing every game and leading his team to a better record (one game over Milwaukee) despite being in the tougher conference and the Nuggets having major injury issues. For Giannis, it's having another great season but flying under the radar because of MVP fatigue, plus having a significant advantage over Jokic on defense.

For RS + PS assessment, I don't have a set formula, but I do put emphasis on the PS well beyond the number of games. The PS matters a lot to me. Probably something like 2/3 RS and 1/3 PS.

Jokic was very good in the PS against Portland, less so against Phoenix. Still good, but less so. Considering the depleted state of the roster, making it the second round was about all anyone could expect.

Giannis wasn't universally great throughout the playoffs, but he was very good. He was probably least impressive in the first round against Miami but got better as the PS progressed, leading up to that awesome finals performance. Durant was great against Milwaukee, but Giannis was right there with him.

To those who say that people are too easily swayed by the small sample size of the finals and the last image of his game 6 performance in particular, that's fine, but that implies that he wasn't very good prior to the finals, which isn't true. He was very good and sometimes excellent. And I do think performing well in the finals counts for more than performing well in earlier rounds. It's not everything, but it's something. Leading his team in a dominant fashion after being down 0-2 in the finals is something.

It's also clear that Giannis is a force on defense far beyond Jokic. He showed that throughout the RS and the PS.

Jokic was rightly the regular season MVP. For POY, he had the lead going into the PS with only Giannis and Embiid having a realistic chance to catch him, and that would take a great PS performance, including probably winning the title. That's what we just saw from Giannis.

[BIGJ1ER]

I have Giannis and Jokic fighting for #1 and #2, trying not to get swept away in the moment and reflect on who I think was the better player this year.

Curry and Embiid will likely be my #3 and #4, the 5th spot is interesting for me at the moment, with a couple contenders there.

[falcolombardi]

looking at previous POY's it would be a big outlier for jokic to win

is very slanted for playoffs performance

[HeartBreakKid]

looking at previous POY's it would be a big outlier for jokic to win

is very slanted for playoffs performance

Which I think we should change. When the projects started it seemed people were more open minded to simply not give the award for the deepest post season run (Lebron James was POY not Kobe Bryant in 09 and 10).

I'll look it over, but I had Jokic as #1 before the last few games. I don't really care much about total number of post season games. Heck, I'm almost positive Curry will make my ballot.

[falcolombardi]

looking at previous POY's it would be a big outlier for jokic to win

is very slanted for playoffs performance

Which I think we should change. When the projects started it seemed people were more open minded to simply not give the award for the deepest post season run (Lebron James was POY not Kobe Bryant in 09 and 10).

I'll look it over, but I had Jokic as #1 before the last few games. I don't really care much about total number of post season games. Heck, I'm almost positive Curry will make my ballot.

there are valid reasons to value deeper runs more tho

-stronger competence (usually) in latter rounds

-increase in sample size, only 1 and arguably only 2 series is maybe too small a sample, giannis improved his play as the playoffs went to a level higher thsn jokic did

maybe if jokic had a better situation he would have dominated all the way to the finals too and played at giannis in the finals level, but we dont know that for sure, we didnt for giannis either

and the fact that according to the first post the poy is not about who is the best player in virtual terms where luck and teams were equalized, but rather about who accomplished more

and a dominant play-off run in way to a title is a hell do an achievement

[HeartBreakKid]

looking at previous POY's it would be a big outlier for jokic to win

is very slanted for playoffs performance

Which I think we should change. When the projects started it seemed people were more open minded to simply not give the award for the deepest post season run (Lebron James was POY not Kobe Bryant in 09 and 10).

I'll look it over, but I had Jokic as #1 before the last few games. I don't really care much about total number of post season games. Heck, I'm almost positive Curry will make my ballot.

there are valid reasons to value deeper runs more tho

-stronger competence (usually) in latter rounds

-increase in sample size, only 1 and arguably only 2 series is maybe too small a sample, giannis improved his play as the playoffs went to a level higher thsn jokic did

maybe if jokic had a better situation he would have dominated all the way to the finals too and played at giannis in the finals level, but we dont know that for sure, we didnt for giannis either

and the fact that according to the first post the poy is not about who is the best player in virtual terms where luck and teams were equalized, but rather about who accomplished more

and a dominant play-off run in way to a title is a hell do an achievement

Yes, but what does accomplishing more mean in basketball? It's not an individual sport, and POY itself is a forum based accomplishment so it seems like a circular argument. If we are voting who should be on the cover of sports illustrated then the answer is rather obvious every year, and not really worth voting.

I don't know why some people are pretending the question is hard then, if the argument is simply who has the most brass or what people will remember most about this year then it is obviously Giannis if that is one's criteria. I almost feel like some people are humoring Jokic vs Giannis is an argument in order to not look shallow, instead of just standing by their criteria and voting for Giannis. That is a bigger peeve for me then someone just flat out saying Giannis deserves to win because he went deeper in the post season - it feels less patronizing.

Lebron James was voted as POY in 2010 despite getting eliminated in the 2nd round, and he was upset on top of that and didn't play out of this world in particular. I do think that once Dirk won the nba championship and subsequently James "redeemed" himself the next seasonf\, the narrative has shifted greatly toward finals or nothing because the board in general is very much tied to Lebron James oriented narratives.

Jokic in the post season is hardly an unknown quantity. Maybe you and many others can say "we don't know", but I feel like I know pretty well. I don't mean that in an arrogant way, I mean it in that at a certain level you have to make an assessment with the info given to you, and Jokic does not have a tiny sample size of greatness. Even with Jokic "struggling" in a smaller sample size, his offensive output is equal to Giannis', and his regular season stats are much better - we also have data from his previous post season runs which I would argue are better than Giannis'. Regardless, "we know" how good Jokic is, it's not a leap of faith.