2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[therealbig3]

Giannis made me eat my words. Well, not exactly, I still don't think we should be too hot takey after one dominant series and an amazing closeout game like that...but man, what a performance. Now that was a legit GOAT-level game from Giannis, just amazing.

Maybe it's because I don't want to give Milwaukee credit, or because I'm kind of in the "in what world does CP3 deserve a title for?" crowd and kind of enjoy seeing his team lose again just to shut up all the "he's just so unlucky, he really deserves a title" arguments, but I found the Suns to be pretty disappointing all in all. Like, they made the Finals and were within 2 games of the championship, and absolutely destroyed preseason expectations, so it was an astounding success as far as the season is concerned...best Suns team in a long time. But specifically in this playoff run, I was never blown away by a team that on paper, should have been a bona fide contender without any obvious weaknesses. Like, I think they get smashed by a lot of recent champions, not just Warriors super teams, and that shouldn't be the case when you look at their personnel. But they never "wowed" me. Played 3 extremely injured teams on their way to the Finals, and then got gentlemen swept by the one relatively healthy team they played. While they themselves were relatively healthy outside of a CP3 injury early in the playoffs (but even then, they were playing against Davis on one leg and a never fully recovered LeBron).

But I'm willing to admit that I've been a hater of the Bucks and Suns throughout this year at various points, as well as Giannis and CP3 as individual players throughout their careers at various points, so it's totally possible I'm not being objective and just hating. But does anyone else feel underwhelmed by the Suns, once you look past the fact that they overachieved preseason expectations so much?

Jeez...you basically just made a giant post to mask a hater posts with some type of faux analysis.

The Suns were a great team. There is nothing that happened in this season that proved otherwise.

Possible, I am kind of a hater when it comes to CP3, I do think he gets a lot of excuses for when things go wrong, and I probably overcompensate the other way.

Suns were a great team, feel like they could have been better than what they showed though. Wasn't overly impressed by any of their series wins tbh, maybe the Nuggets series, considering they won convincingly, but the Nuggets were also missing their 2nd best player whose major hot streak the previous season was why they went on such a great run. Wasn't really a fair matchup at that point.

[kayess]

I couldn't find the exact post of mine, I remember saying "Antetokounmpo is modern-day David Robinson" as for offensive tendencies and shortcomings. He just played to prove me wrong as much as I could be. That was one hell of a finals series performance.

I'm always careful with getting carried away (as I already get annoyed by off-season comparisons like 2021 Antetokounmpo vs. anyone you can think of). But this was a 50/14 (+ elite defense) title-clinching performance.

Congratulations to the Bucks and their fans!

The offense was awesome, but that very well may have been the greatest defensive performance I have ever seen. Man defended the rim in the halfcourt, was a menace in transition, and shut down anyone he guarded on the perimeter. Whenever CP3 got Giannis on the switch, CP3 wasn't going anywhere.

Like I get that he's 36, but I'd never have imagined that a seven-foot rim protector guarding an elite point guard would be considered a bad matchup for the offense.

Antetokoumpo's presence got to minds of Phoenix players real bad. I mean there were possessions in the 4th like Ayton would've dunked 99 out of 100 times but he didn't dare to look at the rim because Antetokounmpo was there, even he was off-position. Ayton just refused to try scoring. Then similar with Booker, and then similar with Paul.
The only player who wasn't afraid to attack the rim and create something was effing Crowder.
Phoenix players were rattled by sheer presence of Antetokounmpo. That's the sign of an insane defensive player.

I noticed this too. We see this a lot with Gobert, but I've never seen anything like it except... Game 6 of the 2016 Finals, when Draymond and Curry were pump faking bunnies, afraid that LeBron was gonna come and swat it (IIRC one of those was in transition!)

[nolang1]

Imma give the general board the business but y'all clever people also need to have a long think about how you've let your anchoring bias affect your evaluations of Giannis. You've nearly all **** up real bad but I'll give you some rope.

I've said this in threads about plenty of other players, but modern players certainly get severely underrated for being drafted earlier and therefore having additional 'choking' years tacked onto the beginning of their careers (which in the perception of the casual fan far outweighs whatever relative edge in career totals one gains from starting earlier). Giannis is the same age as LeBron, Steph, and Jordan were upon winning their first titles; it's certainly fair to say that Giannis is more physically dominant than any of them and figures to fall off to a greater extent as he gets older and his athleticism declines, but I think people have drastically underestimated the likelihood that players like he or Durant will be among the top 10-15 all-time upon retirement.

[Outside]

I think I'd just say I'm not sure there is a single "best player" right now. Just like a year ago. I don't know if Giannis is really any better than he was after back to back MVPs, but folks saw losing to the Heat as some massive negative to an individual player instead of recognizing its a team sport. Same for Jokic this year. But right now don't know it matters much either, just glad I saw that game because my goodness what a performance.

I'm not going to get into who is the "best player" now. As others have said, best player is not the same as player of the year.

I do think that Giannis is better now than he was after winning his MVPs, for a couple of reasons:

-- Point Giannis is dead, replaced by Post Giannis. Post Giannis has unleashed his potential.

-- He now has the confidence of knowing that he is a champion and that he can carry his team to a title. That makes a huge difference in a player's psyche, especially one that young (he's only 26).

He was more dominant than he's ever been on the league's biggest stage. He's a better player now than he's ever been.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think I'd just say I'm not sure there is a single "best player" right now. Just like a year ago. I don't know if Giannis is really any better than he was after back to back MVPs, but folks saw losing to the Heat as some massive negative to an individual player instead of recognizing its a team sport. Same for Jokic this year. But right now don't know it matters much either, just glad I saw that game because my goodness what a performance.

I'm not going to get into who is the "best player" now. As others have said, best player is not the same as player of the year.

I do think that Giannis is better now than he was after winning his MVPs, for a couple of reasons:

-- Point Giannis is dead, replaced by Post Giannis. Post Giannis has unleashed his potential.

-- He now has the confidence of knowing that he is a champion and that he can carry his team to a title. That makes a huge difference in a player's psyche, especially one that young (he's only 26).

He was more dominant than he's ever been on the league's biggest stage. He's a better player now than he's ever been.

Well, he only became a champion the last day of the season. Wouldn't the bold be relevant for next year?

[kayess]

Imma give the general board the business but y'all clever people also need to have a long think about how you've let your anchoring bias affect your evaluations of Giannis. You've nearly all **** up real bad but I'll give you some rope.

I've said this in threads about plenty of other players, but modern players certainly get severely underrated for being drafted earlier and therefore having additional 'choking' years tacked onto the beginning of their careers (which in the perception of the casual fan far outweighs whatever relative edge in career totals one gains from starting earlier). Giannis is the same age as LeBron, Steph, and Jordan were upon winning their first titles; it's certainly fair to say that Giannis is more physically dominant than any of them and figures to fall off to a greater extent as he gets older and his athleticism declines, but I think people have drastically underestimated the likelihood that players like he or Durant will be among the top 10-15 all-time upon retirement.

Those guys were all older actually.

Can't wait to see this guy with an improved jumper and playmaking

[Strepbacter]

Holy ****. I have to mentally prepare for the idea that Chris Paul might just win a title as the man with the Nets injured.

Paul ain't winning ****.

And even if he does this Suns team is a great ensemble

Mentally prepare baby boy.

What was that bruh?

[MartinToVaught]

Giannis made me eat my words. Well, not exactly, I still don't think we should be too hot takey after one dominant series and an amazing closeout game like that...but man, what a performance. Now that was a legit GOAT-level game from Giannis, just amazing.

Maybe it's because I don't want to give Milwaukee credit, or because I'm kind of in the "in what world does CP3 deserve a title for?" crowd and kind of enjoy seeing his team lose again just to shut up all the "he's just so unlucky, he really deserves a title" arguments, but I found the Suns to be pretty disappointing all in all. Like, they made the Finals and were within 2 games of the championship, and absolutely destroyed preseason expectations, so it was an astounding success as far as the season is concerned...best Suns team in a long time. But specifically in this playoff run, I was never blown away by a team that on paper, should have been a bona fide contender without any obvious weaknesses. Like, I think they get smashed by a lot of recent champions, not just Warriors super teams, and that shouldn't be the case when you look at their personnel. But they never "wowed" me. Played 3 extremely injured teams on their way to the Finals, and then got gentlemen swept by the one relatively healthy team they played. While they themselves were relatively healthy outside of a CP3 injury early in the playoffs (but even then, they were playing against Davis on one leg and a never fully recovered LeBron).

But I'm willing to admit that I've been a hater of the Bucks and Suns throughout this year at various points, as well as Giannis and CP3 as individual players throughout their careers at various points, so it's totally possible I'm not being objective and just hating. But does anyone else feel underwhelmed by the Suns, once you look past the fact that they overachieved preseason expectations so much?

I'm not overly impressed by them either, but I also don't agree that they were a "bona fide contender on paper." Obviously they had a great season, but I think the extent of their greatness was also inflated by the overall weirdness of this COVID season and the luckiest run of opponent injuries that probably any team has ever benefited from in the history of the playoffs. I think in a normal season, they would have followed a more normal trajectory - likely a lower playoff seed and first-round exit, which would still be viewed as a sign of progress after a bleak decade in the lottery, and then the front office would start making moves in the offseason to build an actual contender.

I am with you on being irritated by the whole "CP3 deserves a ring, he's so unlucky" narrative, like he hasn't blown a ton of golden opportunities in the playoffs himself over the years. Even now, the blame is starting to be placed on Booker and Ayton, not the guy who was mediocre at best all playoffs except for when he got to face a Campazzo-Rivers backcourt (and now expects a $100 million contract at age 36). Much like Doc Rivers, it's somehow always everyone else's fault when CP3's team loses and nobody notices that he's the common denominator. Why does CP3 deserve any more sympathy than guys like Westbrook or PG?

[PaulieWal]

What is anchoring bias?

I don't know but as one of the few guys standing up for Giannis itt when the ridiculous narratives were rolling earlier in the playoffs I feel no need to give anyone the business but certainly don't mind feeling a bit vindicated.

And I'd hope Aussie stops and enjoys the moment more than he worries about rubbing the haters noses in it. This should be a time of joy not petty revenge tours.

I might do tour of the Raptors board not gunna lie.

The Bucks didn't beat the Raptors?

[bondom34]

I think I'd just say I'm not sure there is a single "best player" right now. Just like a year ago. I don't know if Giannis is really any better than he was after back to back MVPs, but folks saw losing to the Heat as some massive negative to an individual player instead of recognizing its a team sport. Same for Jokic this year. But right now don't know it matters much either, just glad I saw that game because my goodness what a performance.

I'm not going to get into who is the "best player" now. As others have said, best player is not the same as player of the year.

I do think that Giannis is better now than he was after winning his MVPs, for a couple of reasons:

-- Point Giannis is dead, replaced by Post Giannis. Post Giannis has unleashed his potential.

-- He now has the confidence of knowing that he is a champion and that he can carry his team to a title. That makes a huge difference in a player's psyche, especially one that young (he's only 26).

He was more dominant than he's ever been on the league's biggest stage. He's a better player now than he's ever been.

I think this is where I don't really agree (bolded). It narrows things down to only this series, which is a bit too reactionary. He was dominant, and yep he played a great style too.

But he ran over every team a season ago and 2 years ago as well. This year his entire team played better and they had a bit better fortune. He's been that guy, the circumstances changed.

Edit: I may post longer thoughts on it in the future but it's why I don't love judging players off the playoffs so much. Small sample, matchup differences, hot/cold shooting, etc. Giannis did play very well and I'm still speechless hours later. He may be the best player in the NBA but at the same time I look back on Jokic winning what I felt should have been a unanimous MVP and feel like it's really just unclear but people will dismiss him. And the Bucks as a team last year lost and Giannis was dismissed the same, even if he had a single series that may have not been as good after a dominant MVP year. It's a lot of small samples at this point. And even a week or two ago he still was doing the point Giannis thing that frustrates us all.

But darn he was so good. Not sure there is a best player as you said, but also agree w/ others that the takes were flying and shouldn't have been, and feel like we're putting a ton into a small sample every year and its unfair in terms of looking at overall player evaluation.

[AussieBuck]

I don't know but as one of the few guys standing up for Giannis itt when the ridiculous narratives were rolling earlier in the playoffs I feel no need to give anyone the business but certainly don't mind feeling a bit vindicated.

And I'd hope Aussie stops and enjoys the moment more than he worries about rubbing the haters noses in it. This should be a time of joy not petty revenge tours.

I might do tour of the Raptors board not gunna lie.

The Bucks didn't beat the Raptors?

We beat everyone, friend.

[Dr Positivity]

Dude Giannis just had Pettit's Game 6 on offense while also having one of the best defensive playoff games of all time.

Nice champion. In addition to the superstar, Holiday and Middleton contributions were both massive on the whole to me, they got some good role players players like Tucker, Connaughton and Portis, and Lopez had to have one of the most unheralded finals in a long time, you never really noticed him but he has always been good at boxing out and rebounding was one of the main reasons Phoenix lost.

[falcolombardi]

[gfycat][/gfycat]

Looks like Giannis will win Poy here. Almost always comes down to the finals in how ppl vote for Poy here.

not like that is the wrong choice here. to choice jokic would be to overly focus on a slight regular season edge

[therealbig3]

But everything aside, how amazing was this season for Milwaukee?

-Giannis getting killed for being a fake MVP and a playoff choker
-Budenholzer being a RS coach that can't make adjustments
-Letting Brogdon go to save money
-Trading the FARM for Jrue Holiday, then giving him a monster contract extension, both moves getting heavy criticism
-Botching the Bogdanovic deal
-Giannis agrees to an extension with Milwaukee, and after getting initial praise, it's quickly called a huge mistake and something Giannis will regret
-Underwhelming RS by their standard
-Go down 2-0 against Brooklyn in embarrassing fashion, and all the above criticisms come back in full force

Then...
-come back and beat Brooklyn
-Budenholzer making adjustments the whole playoffs
-Giannis starts playing like a monster on a mission
-Jrue Holiday making game-winning plays left and right, in ways that Eric Bledsoe never did
-After going down 2-0 against Phoenix, and all the same criticisms resurface again, they gentlemen sweep them and Giannis puts on a performance for the ages, and they win their first title in 50 years

It's legit one of the best sports stories you could ever come up with, literally everything about them was getting criticized for the last 1+ years, and they legit proved all of those criticisms wrong in stunning fashion. And what an epic win for small market teams everywhere.

[MartinToVaught]

Read on Twitter

Durant's Next Chapter: Milwaukee

[kayess]

Dude Giannis just had Pettit's Game 6 on offense while also having one of the best defensive playoff games of all time.

Nice champion. In addition to the superstar, Holiday and Middleton contributions were both massive on the whole to me, they got some good role players players like Tucker, Connaughton and Portis, and Lopez had to have one of the most unheralded finals in a long time, you never really noticed him but he has always been good at boxing out and rebounding was one of the main reasons Phoenix lost.

Lopez was actually massive this game and was defending the rim better than Giannis (whose good defense was a bit unnoticed because he was hanging out on the perimeter and wasn't being attacked much) to start the game.

Portis was obviously insane this game, and wasn't getting eaten alive on the perimeter.

I feel like the series changed when Connaughton could take the Booker assignment and basically only give up tough contested fadeaways. I mean Booker was making an incredible amount, but the fact that they basically never had to double or trap meant that his impact on O was basically just creating the shots for himself, and it led to the Suns just having to shoot lights out or get bodied by the Bucks.

All their role players REALLY stepped up. Just a classic feel good championship run.

And as for the other 2 stars:

Holliday was a monster on defense. If "The Glove" weren't taken, it'd be a fitting nickname for him. Together with Khris (and Tucker, partially), the Suns just couldn't initiate from the perimeter because they were being hounded all over the floor.

Khris obviously hit a ton of clutch shots regardless of how he'd shot prior to that, but one thing I especially liked was whenever Holliday had a **** shooting game, he still had decent impact on offense because he still manages to create easy buckets for his teammates.

Just what a run for the Bucks man. Happy for them

[TheGOATRises007]

That game 7 the Bucks won vs the Nets is one of the best playoff games I've ever watched.

Giannis took a leap for me the last 2 games of that series and it carried over.

[GSP]

Dude Giannis just had Pettit's Game 6 on offense while also having one of the best defensive playoff games of all time.

Nice champion. In addition to the superstar, Holiday and Middleton contributions were both massive on the whole to me, they got some good role players players like Tucker, Connaughton and Portis, and Lopez had to have one of the most unheralded finals in a long time, you never really noticed him but he has always been good at boxing out and rebounding was one of the main reasons Phoenix lost.

Calling that one of the best defensive games of all time is a massive reach. 2 of his blocks were uncalled fouls, he wasnt guarding the pick and roll well. And he was overhelping and leaving shooters open. Multiple late contests as well.

His defense was far better in games 2-4.

[Texas Chuck]

You can have a great defensive game and still have a few bad plays just like Giannis had a great offensive game and missed a few shots.

[Dr Positivity]

The Suns have good chance to make next year's finals if CP3 stays healthy. I think the 2 favorites should be East teams (Nets and Bucks). I predict Bridges has 2013 George level breakout.