Giannis or Jokic | Who would you build a team around?

[Dr Aki]

What about when Jokic leads Serbia to a gold medal?

[ken6199]

To make my point clear, poll result being 82% - 12% in Giannis' favor over Jokic, I think this is downright silly.

It illustrates the quality of this board aren't very high these days, and as part of the mod team, it's really saddening to see as we are also posters like everyone of you who see this place as our second home of basketball.

Lesson for everyone: polls on general board on emotional nights like this should not be taken seriously.

[Lalouie]

unfair question seeing as how one has won a ring and the other hasn't
nonetheless one lifted his team on his shoulders and did what clutch stars do

it is classic "what stars do"

i prefer the classic game, but if both had a team fitted around each i think the separation might come with the emotional lift that giannis provides

[Bucks4005]

As a Bucks fan, I’d argue it’s easier to build around Jokic. I mean, he’s a bit of a victim of circumstance though. They were able to draft MPJ, a player whose clearly outplayed his draft slot and is elite at scoring sot then they have to feature him despite his defensive shortcomings and despite Jokic shortcomings on defense. The Bucks we’re able to field 5 high end defensive or former high end defensive and therefore smarter defensive players this playoffs. A lineup of Jrue-Tucker,-Middleton-Giannis-Lopez, I mean, most of this lineup has made an all defensive team in the NBA and Tuckers and Middleton have always been good defenders.

Giannis had a team built around defense around him with suspect offense, yet he can become Shaq any given game. Jokic is much easier to build around, but it’s always a playoff liability. A C(Giannis) vs (Jokic), it’s hard to build a team around Jokic unless you can get a big who can rim protect

[Jazztop]

:oops:

See, my issue is the concept of propping up another player whilst putting another down in the process. It doesn’t have to be like that. Comes off as petty, more than anything.

Give Jokic a team with Middleton and Jrue and give Giannis a team with Rivers, MPJ and Facu. Which team is more successful? If anything, a team like Milwaukee would be perfect for Jokic as there are enough great defenders to mask his issues there. Denver has spotty shooting and Giannis would need to play like in game 6 every night.

It’s easy to look back at the decimated Denver team and point and laugh at Jokic while the Bucks were quite healthy all year. It’s easy, but it isn’t necessarily fair.

Jokic is great. But would you build around him in preference to Giannis?

Anyone who starts their reply with a laughing emoji should really not be taken seriously.

Jazztop, I am talking to you.

that was an accident

[Lalouie]

As a Bucks fan, I’d argue it’s easier to build around Jokic. I mean, he’s a bit of a victim of circumstance though. They were able to draft MPJ, a player whose clearly outplayed his draft slot and is elite at scoring sot then they have to feature him despite his defensive shortcomings and despite Jokic shortcomings on defense. The Bucks we’re able to field 5 high end defensive or former high end defensive and therefore smarter defensive players this playoffs. A lineup of Jrue-Tucker,-Middleton-Giannis-Lopez, I mean, most of this lineup has made an all defensive team in the NBA and Tuckers and Middleton have always been good defenders.

Giannis had a team built around defense around him with suspect offense, yet he can become Shaq any given game. Jokic is much easier to build around, but it’s always a playoff liability. A C(Giannis) vs (Jokic), it’s hard to build a team around Jokic unless you can get a big who can rim protect

i will argue with your rationale.

i think it's easier to build around giannis because he has the ability to overcome any shortcomings the team might have.

in other words jokic has the ability to feed the beast, but giannis can BE the beast. i will further argue that giannis has more areas to improve on, so we are seeing 80% giannis, and 95% jokic

[Bucks4005]

As a Bucks fan, I’d argue it’s easier to build around Jokic. I mean, he’s a bit of a victim of circumstance though. They were able to draft MPJ, a player whose clearly outplayed his draft slot and is elite at scoring sot then they have to feature him despite his defensive shortcomings and despite Jokic shortcomings on defense. The Bucks we’re able to field 5 high end defensive or former high end defensive and therefore smarter defensive players this playoffs. A lineup of Jrue-Tucker,-Middleton-Giannis-Lopez, I mean, most of this lineup has made an all defensive team in the NBA and Tuckers and Middleton have always been good defenders.

Giannis had a team built around defense around him with suspect offense, yet he can become Shaq any given game. Jokic is much easier to build around, but it’s always a playoff liability. A C(Giannis) vs (Jokic), it’s hard to build a team around Jokic unless you can get a big who can rim protect

i will argue with your rationale.

i think it's easier to build around giannis because he has the ability to overcome any shortcomings the team might have.

in other words jokic has the ability to feed the beast, but giannis can BE the beast. i will further argue that giannis has more areas to improve on, so we are seeing 80% giannis, and 95% jokic

I agree Giannis can be the beast. And that’s the clear mark of a top team. Someone who can do that. I just think it’s easier to build around a C like Jokic, Honestly, Lopez might be the only C offensively and defensively that can pair with Giannis. Guy can post up, and shoot 3, yet gives a rebounding advantage because he boxes out

[BelgradeNugget]

As a Bucks fan, I’d argue it’s easier to build around Jokic. I mean, he’s a bit of a victim of circumstance though. They were able to draft MPJ, a player whose clearly outplayed his draft slot and is elite at scoring sot then they have to feature him despite his defensive shortcomings and despite Jokic shortcomings on defense. The Bucks we’re able to field 5 high end defensive or former high end defensive and therefore smarter defensive players this playoffs. A lineup of Jrue-Tucker,-Middleton-Giannis-Lopez, I mean, most of this lineup has made an all defensive team in the NBA and Tuckers and Middleton have always been good defenders.

Giannis had a team built around defense around him with suspect offense, yet he can become Shaq any given game. Jokic is much easier to build around, but it’s always a playoff liability. A C(Giannis) vs (Jokic), it’s hard to build a team around Jokic unless you can get a big who can rim protect

i will argue with your rationale.

i think it's easier to build around giannis because he has the ability to overcome any shortcomings the team might have.

in other words jokic has the ability to feed the beast, but giannis can BE the beast. i will further argue that giannis has more areas to improve on, so we are seeing 80% giannis, and 95% jokic

Jokic was the beast this year in the RS and in POs he has always been the beast.
POs Jokic - 25.9/11.3/6.4 on 51.2/40.6/84 - that is the beast
This year (without Murray and with injured MPJ in the second round) - 29.8/11.6/5 on 50.9/37.7/83.6
About areas to improve, people were saying that Jokic peaked for the last 3 years, while he should have got MIP award this year after already been selected to 2 all-nba selections.

[DCasey91]

Jokic needs a very specific Elite rim protector to make it work. Then the whole dynamics changes

Giannis needs a shot maker that’s good enough (Khris)

I’m building around Giannis not close. Rate both very highly (I like Jokic more). But Jokic I’m not buying his chip equity anytime soon exactly like with Giannis before the team was rightfully put together as it should be.

It’s just that the structure of the team is easier around Giannis then with Jokic.

Say you do get the elite rim big. Now what? The defense is still ripe for the picking.

MPJ/Murray/Jokic

I’d rather have Turner/Murray/Jokic without a thought.

Embiid should be eyeing off the Bucks blueprint and slamming it down on the front office right now.

There’s a small list of elite rim bigs that can shoot it isn’t long.

Middleton is very very good no doubt. But I can put others in that spot for the job.

[BelgradeNugget]

Here is the thing IMO. Giannis has won it all so he is in the short list of players who have won it all as best players on their teams. List includes LeBron, Curry, Durant, Kawhi and now Giannis. Jokic is not on the list.
Another fact is Jokic has made it as far as WCF without 1 teammate who was all-star, all-defense or all-nba in their prime. Only 36 y/o Millsap had such selections 5 years ago.

[_qubik]

Why choose ? Take both, one completes the other, a big with shooting range and no defense, a big with no shooting range and dpoy level defense

[DCasey91]

Remember watching the Nuggets and Blazers was like watching traffic cones defend each other and Jokic was in that boat. No excuses there. Same for Lillard which I love but I know he’s one of the worst defenders in this comp.

Below average defensive bigs we all know don’t have high team ceilings. Jokic is different because he’s Bird + Dirk basically. So subvert that into those high octane offensive systems.

MPJ is overkill. Murray + Jokic then defenders that can shoot now you’re cooking with supa hot fire. Until then big no.

Camp has great defensive skills but he’s small and a guard so in actuality is a negative defender watching him closely. Durant on the otherhand you could argue isn’t as defensively skilled.

But the Grand Canyon sized gap in size is enormous and wings are the second most valuable after Bigs.
Wings that can act as a pseudo free safety bigs (Giannis, AD, LBJ, Durant, Green, Ben) are the best breeds to me. They can’t be played off the court and always have a matchup and scale to its highest degree of value vs opponents direct threats.

For Playoffs that’s undeniably great.

Find a Parish or Chandler Nuggets.

[GSP]

To make my point clear, poll result being 82% - 12% in Giannis' favor over Jokic, I think this is downright silly.

It illustrates the quality of this board aren't very high these days, and as part of the mod team, it's really saddening to see as we are also posters like everyone of you who see this place as our second home of basketball.

Lesson for everyone: polls on general board on emotional nights like this should not be taken seriously.

I follow a wide range of sports and basketball fans are by far the biggest recency bias, prisoner of the moment influenced fans. It's not even close.

[BelgradeNugget]

Jokic needs a very specific Elite rim protector to make it work. Then the whole dynamics changes

Giannis needs a shot maker that’s good enough (Khris)

I’m building around Giannis not close. Rate both very highly (I like Jokic more). But Jokic I’m not buying his chip equity anytime soon exactly like with Giannis before the team was rightfully put together as it should be.

It’s just that the structure of the team is easier around Giannis then with Jokic.

Say you do get the elite rim big. Now what? The defense is still ripe for the picking.

MPJ/Murray/Jokic

I’d rather have Turner/Murray/Jokic without a thought.

Embiid should be eyeing off the Bucks blueprint and slamming it down on the front office right now.

There’s a small list of elite rim bigs that can shoot it isn’t long.

Middleton is very very good no doubt. But I can put others in that spot for the job.

Middleton is someone who can take over game in the cluch for Bucks, and hit game tying/winning shots. Giannis can't do that. I don't think it is easy to find that type of player.
I also think people underrate Nuggets defense. They were 11th this year in DEFRTG in RS with all the injuries they had. Also people are terribly underrating Murray's defense. He is not the same player who was destroyed by Hood in POs 2 years ago.
He was 5th in DEF. Raptor among starting PGs https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/
He was 2nd among PGs in DRPM http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1
Also MPJ is not the same player/defender as last year. Last year he was terrible defensively on the level of Tray. This year before he hurt his back in the 2nd round he was average which is pretty good for player who is sophmore who played HS ball before thet.

[DCasey91]

Watch the series with the Blazers. They were all as bad as each other.

I learnt to trust my eyes more then stats do. I mean halfway through the year Harris and Milton were ranked ffs as positive even Harris was or or unquote ranked elite in some random defensive metric.

Fwiw they are below to bad defenders.

Aren’t some metric inherently flawed or just have straight bias?

Anyway from a team perspective you cannot get past a below average rim protecting big which Jokic is.

Hence the Parish/Chandler analogy. I actually hope Turner goes to the Nuggets. Then that team is on one and a real contender.

[BelgradeNugget]

Remember watching the Nuggets and Blazers was like watching traffic cones defend each other and Jokic was in that boat. No excuses there. Same for Lillard which I love but I know he’s one of the worst defenders in this comp.

Below average defensive bigs we all know don’t have high team ceilings. Jokic is different because he’s Bird + Dirk basically. So subvert that into those high octane offensive systems.

MPJ is overkill. Murray + Jokic then defenders that can shoot now you’re cooking with supa hot fire. Until then big no.

Camp has great defensive skills but he’s small and a guard so in actuality is a negative defender watching him closely. Durant on the otherhand you could argue isn’t as defensively skilled.

But the Grand Canyon sized gap in size is enormous and wings are the second most valuable after Bigs.
Wings that can act as a pseudo free safety bigs (Giannis, AD, LBJ, Durant, Green, Ben) are the best breeds to me. They can’t be played off the court and always have a matchup and scale to its highest degree of value vs opponents direct threats.

For Playoffs that’s undeniably great.

Find a Parish or Chandler Nuggets.

Lillard didn't do to Nuggets nothing that Trae didn't do to 76ers all-nba defense. And 76ers in fact have one of the best defense in the league with all-nba defenders on critical positions PG, C and wing. The thing is some players are this good now using the whole half court to attack. Dame is with Curry the best in that. Unimitated range, it is pick your poison with him. 3 pt shot, floater or layup. Trae killed 76ers with floaters.

[BelgradeNugget]

Watch the series with the Blazers. They were all as bad as each other.

I learnt to trust my eyes more then stats do. I mean halfway through the year Harris and Milton were ranked ffs as positive even Harris was or or unquote ranked elite in some random defensive metric.

Fwiw they are below to bad defenders.

Aren’t some metric inherently flawed or just have straight bias?

Anyway from a team perspective you cannot get past a below average rim protecting big which Jokic is.

Hence the Parish/Chandler analogy. I actually hope Turner goes to the Nuggets. Then that team is on one and a real contender.

The one in which we were missing Murray (the one I was talking about defensively), Will Barton good wing defender and PJ Dozier our best perimeter defender? The one in which Marcus Howard our 5'10' 2-way shooting guard played 15 mins per game.

[Ruzious]

Jokic's offense is stunningly great, and he gets the edge there, but the difference in defense is greater and more important as far as winning a championship, so I think it's Giannis - but I am a Bucks fan and undoubtedly biased. I'd love to see how they'd play as teammates... on the Bucks.

[JN61]

Giannis even before these playoffs:

superior defender, better scorer, similar offensive skill, not that far behind on passing/creator compared to Jokic

Defensive edge is just too much while other things are very close. Jokic is also way more inconsistent compared to Giannis. He has several odd <15 games during the season.

[DCasey91]

Remember watching the Nuggets and Blazers was like watching traffic cones defend each other and Jokic was in that boat. No excuses there. Same for Lillard which I love but I know he’s one of the worst defenders in this comp.

Below average defensive bigs we all know don’t have high team ceilings. Jokic is different because he’s Bird + Dirk basically. So subvert that into those high octane offensive systems.

MPJ is overkill. Murray + Jokic then defenders that can shoot now you’re cooking with supa hot fire. Until then big no.

Camp has great defensive skills but he’s small and a guard so in actuality is a negative defender watching him closely. Durant on the otherhand you could argue isn’t as defensively skilled.

But the Grand Canyon sized gap in size is enormous and wings are the second most valuable after Bigs.
Wings that can act as a pseudo free safety bigs (Giannis, AD, LBJ, Durant, Green, Ben) are the best breeds to me. They can’t be played off the court and always have a matchup and scale to its highest degree of value vs opponents direct threats.

For Playoffs that’s undeniably great.

Find a Parish or Chandler Nuggets.

Lillard didn't do to Nuggets nothing that Trae didn't do to 76ers all-nba defense. And 76ers in fact have one of the best defense in the league with all-nba defenders on critical positions PG, C and wing. The thing is some players are this good now using the whole half court to attack. Dame is with Curry the best in that. Unimitated range, it is pick your poison with him. 3 pt shot, floater or layup. Trae killed 76ers with floaters.

Trae shot sub 40%. Doc straight up made blunders each game of the series. Team weaknesses and their play style worked out. I mean Huerter/Gallo, Collins etc all played their roles.

Once again watch the games